Fighting Marines, do we need to tailor?

[dc0315]

Oct 24, 2019 9:00:09 GMT browno said:

This is what i would try if i had all the models.


++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Tyranids) [102 PL, 2,000pts] ++

+ HQ +

Neurothrope [4 PL, 90pts]

Neurothrope [4 PL, 90pts]

The Swarmlord [15 PL, 250pts]

+ Troops +

Hormagaunts [9 PL, 150pts]: 30x Hormagaunt

Hormagaunts [9 PL, 150pts]: 30x Hormagaunt

Hormagaunts [9 PL, 150pts]: 30x Hormagaunt

+ Elites +

Zoanthropes [12 PL, 240pts]: 6x Zoanthrope

Zoanthropes [12 PL, 240pts]: 6x Zoanthrope

Zoanthropes [12 PL, 240pts]: 6x Zoanthrope

+ Heavy Support +

Biovores [4 PL, 100pts]: 2x Biovore

Biovores [6 PL, 150pts]: 3x Biovore

Biovores [6 PL, 150pts]: 3x Biovore

++ Total: [102 PL, 2,000pts] ++


Reasoning to just tie enemy units up with mines and hormies. Then some smart placement of zoans to take out the worst stuff. It may work or not, but might be worth a try.

With a potential 4+ overwatch i dont think using hormagaunts or anything to charge into combat is thatvgreat right now sadly

[No One]

Yeah, if you can tie up with horms, you can tie up basically as well with stealers. Which doesn't really work, because they've got Fly, good overwatch/retaliation, and TFC.

[garg]

I like list 1, I'd ditch the mawloc though, swap the prime for a malanthrope and add another squad of rippers. Also for the warriors I'd give the bone swords to the VCs or is that not possible? That way you don't have to make a choice when killing a unit.

[dc0315]

Oct 24, 2019 11:05:08 GMT garg said:

I like list 1, I'd ditch the mawloc though, swap the prime for a malanthrope and add another squad of rippers. Also for the warriors I'd give the bone swords to the VCs or is that not possible? That way you don't have to make a choice when killing a unit.

Dont u think the malanthrope is useless now that they reroll all hits? It helps but wortg 140pts now? If i drop the prime those warriors are hitting on 4s now? Dont you think its worth the points for 12 warriors? Youre right about the boneswords ill do that now. I took the mawloc to maybe distract the executioners for a turn and increase the MW factor

[No One]

Like, they've got Fly, it's basically a non-threat in combat. Either they've smoked the exos, in which case it's instantly dead, or they haven't and it does it's couple of MW (or not even that if they've got infiltrators) and then dies a bit later.

[dc0315]

Oct 24, 2019 12:16:57 GMT No One said:

Like, they've got Fly, it's basically a non-threat in combat. Either they've smoked the exos, in which case it's instantly dead, or they haven't and it does it's couple of MW (or not even that if they've got infiltrators) and then dies a bit later.

its guaranteed to do the mw in turn 2 though when it comes up, then its there infront of him in t2. How do infiltrators effect a mawloc badly?

[No One]

They prevent anything coming from reserves within 12", so no mawloc MW. And as mentioned, a mawloc...isn't really that threatening, esp to SM lists running executioners.

[v0iddrgn]

How many infiltrators do you see running around with Primaris? This is such a pessimistic thread. You guys are telling players what's going to happen as if you magically know, mathhammer is only part of the picture. I came here for ideas and all I get is, "that smell is my army burning". Lesson learned, you have no good ideas or advice.

[No One]

...Plenty? Like, the guy I play regularly hasn't played me without them yet. And they're not uncommon as a 1 or 2 of in lists I see online. In literally every list? No. A rarity that you'll never have to play around? Also no.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Oct 24, 2019 13:20:15 GMT v0iddrgn said:

How many infiltrators do you see running around with Primaris? This is such a pessimistic thread. You guys are telling players what's going to happen as if you magically know, mathhammer is only part of the picture. I came here for ideas and all I get is, "that smell is my army burning". Lesson learned, you have no good ideas or advice.

Ive had two games against new marines: raven guard for one and ultramarines for the second. The raven guard player had three units with 12" deepstrike denial (note: I was playing GSC and my opponent decided that the 3" deepstrike strategem trumped his infiltrators). The ultramarines player had one unit of 12" deepstrike denial, but included quite a few infiltrators increasing his deepstrike denial potential. The raven guard player and I tied and I beat the ultramarines player by 2 points.

As far as the hive as a whole, I've found it to be at times pessimistic but also extremely helpful. I know I've learned tons of tips, tricks, strategies, and builds from frequenting this board. Currently, the hive is reeling from experiencing some insane power creep over the last couple of months. A lot of the discussion is theoretical of "hey could I use x? No it could be countered by y." If you have specific questions about any specific builds or need general tyranid advice, feel free to ask.

[garg]

I scrolled to quickly thought it was three not for squads of warriors. With 12 it probably is with to keep the prime. It could be an option to swap the exos for two VC DS carnifex and add a malanthrope. Then you could break it up into two battalions, as another ripper, remove the mucolid spores and either add more meiotic or even a second prime.

[kazetanade]

Oct 24, 2019 13:20:15 GMT v0iddrgn said:

How many infiltrators do you see running around with Primaris? This is such a pessimistic thread. You guys are telling players what's going to happen as if you magically know, mathhammer is only part of the picture. I came here for ideas and all I get is, "that smell is my army burning". Lesson learned, you have no good ideas or advice.

As a standard, you should see:

1 TFC
1 Eliminator
1 Infiltrator

in every SM list, due to the toolbox these things open. The TFC neuters mobility armies by making them immobile (this is a GS Sling Counter straight up), the Infiltrators make any DS Drop play a veritable nightmare to deal with (only GSC has easy ways to deal with this, since we can drop outside 12" and move in D6" before getting some more buffs to our charges, but that doesnt make our charges or strategies immune to infiltrators). The Eliminators are fantastic Engineers, while also helping deal with troublesome characters. In fact, a case can be made for 3 x 3 Eliminators to be a standard, because it makes any* marching army that relies on characters a liability rather than an asset.

There's 0 mathhamer in what I just told you - it's all basic strategy and analysis, with some level of experience - and it lines up very well with "the math" when it pops up. Now, while we have tools to handle this, a lot  of our options are contingent on:

a) the enemy making a positional or play mistake, giving you a space to exploit. 
b) having adequate terrain to play a more reserved, slower game without being out-ranged.
c) you having a better grasp of all the tools in your army and being able to make use of all your tools when you need to
d) by being quite a bit better than your opponent, coming down to Objective Placement, Selection, and Game Pacing, while also understanding a lot of  the Technical skills of 40k mechanics and exploiting them when given the chance. 

This boils down to: It's harder to play a GSC army vs a good SM player than many other armies, and we need to both recognize this and respect it. 

Referring directly to the Mawloc - it's pretty trashy for the past 2 years. I mean, it could probably work if we're talking about a Carnifex spam list or some other MC spam list, Dropping like 3 Flyrants + 6 Carnifexen coming up then 3 Mawlocs popping up kind of threat saturation, but as a general tool in the box, Mawlocs are very bad. You really need to build their total package into your list design concept to get mileage out of them. 

Hormagant tie ups - Depending what you charge, you can lose most of your unit from the Overwatch and Combat phase vs SM, because SM melee actually really hurts against us, let alone Hormagants. Seriously, respect it - I have had Sternguards beat Genestealers into a pulp in combat before, and that was long before the recent buffs. 

The best thing we can really do is to pick the army apart piece by piece, while trying to stay out of the brunt of the damage's way (dont let him shoot you). If you can wrap, not be at risk of being wiped in counterattack, and score objectives while safe in combat, then you will put most SM lists on the backfoot as they struggle to deal with you (SM need to both shoot and hit you to be murderbots, although its both equally dangerous now). 

[gigasnail]

Oct 24, 2019 13:20:15 GMT v0iddrgn said:

How many infiltrators do you see running around with Primaris? This is such a pessimistic thread. You guys are telling players what's going to happen as if you magically know, mathhammer is only part of the picture. I came here for ideas and all I get is, "that smell is my army burning". Lesson learned, you have no good ideas or advice.

you're going to see them commonly, because they break the rules and shut down entire army types just by showing up.

this isn't pessimism, it's experience. some of these guys have been in the game 20 years at this point. you should pay attention to them instead of whining.

[killercroc]

40k has always had issues with units breaking the rules, the ones that do tend to be super powerful as well, so you see them all the time. I mean, it's not as bad as last edition where there were some units that could ignore multiple rules but it's still an issue. Now you see in more in strats than base rules but it's there and will always be there, we just have to find away around it.

One thing I was thinking may be my issue is trying to get Kraken swarm to work for me, may just have to accept Kraken isn't as good as it was. Marines got a buff in shooting and combat, so why play the fleet that runs into their guns and tries to fight them? It's more beneficial to my opponent than me. Even last edition I had to deal with 2-3 rounds of shooting before I can charge, now I have to deal with 1 round of shooting that's as potent as 2 rounds use to be, but I'm not getting any more models to field whilst my opponent get double the shots to kill what I already had.

I have been thinking maybe just switch to Jorm bombs. Keep them small cheap but potent. Enemy will have 12" deny so have units that don't need to be in 12" like dakkagants and Shock guard so they're still as powerful at 12.1" as they are at 9.1". Keep them small so they can take advantage of gaps in my opponents field, might not be able to drop 6 Raveners with 20 stealers and a bunch of warriors but smaller tunnel swarms are still good. Stuff on the board can focus trying to take out their shields and deniers from range, stay out of the marine 24", focus on our 36" units and punch holes through where we can on 1-2 turns then drop the bombs to take advantage. The issue may not be 100% Nids but how I'm trying to run them.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Hmm... I was thinking about trying to double down on kraken and go with 100 genestealers again. You slowed down one unit and crippled a second? Great, here's three more that will destroy a large portion of your army.

Granted I'm also thinking about trying the slow and steady jormungandr approach and try to out shoot and out tough the marines.

I'm really interested to see how your list plays out. It's definitely given me a lot to think about as I generally don't run jormungandr bombs.