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Post by killercroc on Oct 14, 2019 14:45:14 GMT
I've had a few game against the new marines and it's been pretty rough not gonna lie. All the extra bolter shots, extra attacks, way better traits, relics, strats, etc. they've become a whole new beast to play against. Now I haven't changed my list overly much as I play a sort of "I bring what I want list" and just take a little of whatever I feel like having in my army that day so it does vary, but now I'm seeing that with my list even against the same list my regular opponents use to run it's gone from close games back/forth to just getting mowed down and frankly it's pretty damn unfun.
Pretty much all of our games are "for fun" and people bring a spread of neutral to semi-serious lists (I flat out stopped agreeing to play the people that power game ITC list stuff in a pick up 2000 point game) but now I'm not feeling the fun in these "for fun" games. Got tabled hard by Dark Angels turn 3, just mass amounts of 4 bolter shot bikers with re-roll to hit, 3 attacks each in combat with re-rolls, cant even charge cause the amount of overwatch just shreads my units too. Those special elite plasma bikers are a pain as they can shred anything I have in shooting or combat, overall there was a lot to deal with and just bolter drill and herp derp extra attack cause mureens is brutal.
Now I the tailoring I'm talking about isn't against my opponents list but rather their army. I'm not sure how many people already change their list depending on who they're fighting but I tend to always have a shifting list with some regular customers no matter who I play against, however it's reaching the point that I'm curious if I cannot do that anymore against marines. I haven't put much thought into how to do it but like, spam things that are good against marines (High S, AP, Dmg) bring 3 Exocrine every list, bring more Genestealers, Hive guard with Impalers, I dunno just anything that mitigates a marines hardiness.
And, this is a personal complaint but I really don't like the new marines as they seem way too powerful, like my opponents always make excuses for marines any time they can "Oh they're elite army so they need all the help they can get" but they have so much re-rolling with a massive amount of shots and attacks it feels like playing a horde army amount of dice that's in an elite skin. Why does the army with so much 2+/3+ need all the re-rolls from every character? Did GW just make aura buff characters too cheap? I dunno.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 14, 2019 15:28:26 GMT
SM is that powerful. You need to take into account their strengths as a TAC list, much like how you have to take into account Knights in a comp list.
FYI, Hive Guards aren't the best solution. With Transhuman Physiology available you will be seeing your HG do next to nothing.
Just rough: 12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2-3 dead. Even a squad of Scouts (roll 5+ on morale to die) won't die unless you shoot twice.
Exocrines also aren't the answer. Honestly I don't know what the Nids answer is, other than Biovores, 9 of them.
It makes me sad.
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 14, 2019 15:47:08 GMT
'nids don't have a tool available that can deal with this army in the hands of a decent player.
White scar scouts were hitting harder in close combat than the custodes my son and I were playing. More attacks with more consistent damage. It's silly. Scouts!!
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Oct 14, 2019 16:02:12 GMT
1) I do think we need to tailor. At least in my meta (even pre-codex 2.0), I saw marines a good chunk of the time. My league lists are a mix of what I want to play and if I think it can beat marines.
2) the argument for "marines are an elite army, they need all the tools they can get" is laughable at best. Custodes are supposed to be better than marines, yet they don't get bolter rule or angels of death. Also, they only get reroll 1s to hit and only get reroll 1s to wound if you bring their equivalent of a chapter master. It's a bit of a cognitive disconnect.
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Post by wormlord666 on Oct 14, 2019 16:23:53 GMT
If we were to tailor against a infantryheavy ultra or whitescars army, what would we bring?
Hive guards will still be ok, i mean, they waste cp on transhuman strat and then you shooot the second time on another unit. And HG can possibly hide from the bolterstorm, right.
Exocrines? Good weapon but will they reach them before they are shoot to pieces?
Smitespam zooanthropes?
Genestealers? You’d need vecting Cult to have a chance in overwatch but mayby wrapping and killing is possible?
Venomcanonfexes? Seems really silly when you compare the output of what the marines can bring though.
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Post by killercroc on Oct 14, 2019 16:36:17 GMT
SM is that powerful. You need to take into account their strengths as a TAC list, much like how you have to take into account Knights in a comp list. FYI, Hive Guards aren't the best solution. With Transhuman Physiology available you will be seeing your HG do next to nothing. Just rough: 12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2-3 dead. Even a squad of Scouts (roll 5+ on morale to die) won't die unless you shoot twice. Exocrines also aren't the answer. Honestly I don't know what the Nids answer is, other than Biovores, 9 of them. It makes me sad. Holy hell that strat seems broken! 2 CP to ignore 1s 2s and 3s? I knew there was a chapter trait to ignore 1s and 2s but that strat is some BS. Exocrines were my main thought just because it's the best anti-marine shooting we have, but this goes to what I said before. Our big plasma bug hits on 3s wounds on 3s and is a solid chunk of points and is the heaviest shooting we have but marines easily can match that with re-rolls on hits and wounds too, for less points! I just don't get it. I was thinking about Biovores but I'm not sure if they're the answer either? My problem with biovores is their points, 50 is way too much for whats basically a 50/50 chance to do a single mortal wound. I know you place the spore mine if it misses but so often a marine near by just shoots them with bolt pistols and they're gone. So glad I pay extra points for an artillery that "never misses" but becomes irrelevant by the target I'm shoot at's side arm. The other reason I dislike Biovores is compared to almost any other artillery in the game their points for output is really low. The average damage from a Basilisk or a Whirlwind beats them out for much cheaper. Oh and they're also $46 a piece and even Hydracasts Biovores which look amazing is $100 for 3. 'nids don't have a tool available that can deal with this army in the hands of a decent player. White scar scouts were hitting harder in close combat than the custodes my son and I were playing. More attacks with more consistent damage. It's silly. Scouts!! Another thing is our Warlord traits and Relics aren't very good either, most games I take one just because... I dunno its free so might as wel? Never ends up doing anything though. I'm contemplating going full GSC just so I have a bigger toolbox to counter marines. Hell they kill my Nids so easily taking GSC isn't going to be any differen't, might as well take the army with more flexibility. I only fought DA scouts with shotguns and a leader with dual plasma pistols and even those were a pain. Shotguned my gaunts, charged in and attacked them, 12 out of 20 gaunts were dead before even my part of turn 1. Yeah I know they're "just gaunts" but when 5 of my enemies cheapest troops can do that much damage to mine it's just crazy. By the time the gaunts finally got out of combat (They didn't kill the sergeant my opponent purposely overcharged his plasma pistols to kill himself so the rest of his army could shoot the gaunts and Zoanthropes that were wrapped up) I had 4 gaunts left. That's right, he killed 16 out of 20 gaunts and all I could manage was 4 dead scouts. Why am I suppose to take gaunts again? 1) I do think we need to tailor. At least in my meta (even pre-codex 2.0), I saw marines a good chunk of the time. My league lists are a mix of what I want to play and if I think it can beat marines. 2) the argument for "marines are an elite army, they need all the tools they can get" is laughable at best. Custodes are supposed to be better than marines, yet they don't get bolter rule or angels of death. Also, they only get reroll 1s to hit and only get reroll 1s to wound if you bring their equivalent of a chapter master. It's a bit of a cognitive disconnect. I'm not sure if it's all marine players or just the ones I play with, but they say the must insufferable things. Marines needing tools, marines have always been bad so it's ok that they're OP, saying that with all the new traits, special rules, OP characters etc. that Marines are NOW finally what they should have been to begin with. Bolter rule is fine because Marines shooting isn't that good (No really, one dude tried to say marines shooting was bad) Stuff like that, constantly. If we were to tailor against a infantryheavy ultra or whitescars army, what would we bring? Hive guards will still be ok, i mean, they waste cp on transhuman strat and then you shooot the second time on another unit. And HG can possibly hide from the bolterstorm, right. Exocrines? Good weapon but will they reach them before they are shoot to pieces? Smitespam zooanthropes? Genestealers? You’d need vecting Cult to have a chance in overwatch but mayby wrapping and killing is possible? Venomcanonfexes? Seems really silly when you compare the output of what the marines can bring though. That's kinda what I thought about Hiveguard, hide them to just shoot without being shot back. Alternatively I was thinking of making shock guard since I mainly play kraken and shock guard with an assault weapon benefit from the Hive Fleet trait, and can keep up with the rest of the army and not get left behind. And I mean it'd D3 haywire autocannon shoots, they can be used against tanks or infantry. I don't think Exocrine will have a range issue being 36", everything your opponent has can touch you so no reason to put them in the back of the board to protect them. The lascannons will hit you either way so might as well be within 36" I don't think Zoans are the option because of their points. 120 minimum for a single smite isn't worth spamming, considering other armies get 2 power characters for what... 70-ish points so Zoans just do not compete for their cost. And while yes they have that 3++ it doesn't last forever and Marines have so many multi-wound weapons those 3W don't last either. I have 2 Venomfex and while at the time they were a good idea now I don't think so. Dual Deathspitters, Venom, ES, SC for 119 points. It seems good but if your opponent has no tanks the HVC are kinda worthless, they on average kill a single Marines. Sure they do 3 damage so they can take out even Aggressors but their damage output vs how easily they're killed is just annoying. In my game all I managed to kill with 2 venomfex was 2 multi-melta attack bikes and a tactical marine before they were brought down by multiple overcharged plasma. |
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 14, 2019 18:14:43 GMT
6 Fexes or bust.
I think Custodies will get their power buff eventually. They're taking turns with each codex at this point, Aeldari and Ynnari look like they'll be in a decent spot after their nerf hammer.
Marines are still an elite army - despite what damage they output against us (specifically horde armies suffer badly - other tougher armies are fine. Such as Other Marines and Knights *sarcasm*) they do lose a hefty amount for every model that dies. If you switch off their tools, the pain goes away quickly.
The trick is then to have numerous vectors of threat, and to deal mortal wounds directly. On that note, Zoanthropes are a great idea. I'd almost go as far as to say that 12 (6+6 or 4+4+4) are not out of place. Biovores help greatly, and leaving a mountain of spores to clear up is vexing for many, especially those which less movement. It helps too when you don't rely on charging, since marines need to shoot AND charge to be a veritable threat (not to say their shooting is not scary, but it's not drastically improved in most cases where they still need to move), so their greatest weakness is ironically a ranged shooting army.
The issue with Zoey? I think d3+3 doesn't kill enough Primaris, with their 2W stat line they actually need to be shot by Exocrines to be in danger. Likewise bikes but you basically fight through a 3++ badly so you're screwed there.
IH are so borked though. 4+ OW, 4+ DtW, 5++,4+++ or 5+++ vs mortal wounds, no Heavy and auto rr1s, bloody hell...
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 14, 2019 18:31:45 GMT
I dont think there is any effective tailor for this. You bring your A game, cut all the fat, and play strictly to the mission. There is no more wiggle room.
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 14, 2019 19:08:31 GMT
I dont think there is any effective tailor for this. You bring your A game, cut all the fat, and play strictly to the mission. It's hard to play to the mission when your units are vaporized the moment 3 repulsors see them. If the top ITC Tau player gets vaporized by this list (he won NOVA by the way) tight game play isn't a great answer either. It's the most unfun thing I have ever played against. At least a castellan you had a chance against. This is the perfect storm: nearly unkillable units and massive fire output. It's a diamond cannon. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Oct 14, 2019 19:12:01 GMT
I'm thinking of trying jormungandr again against the new marines at some point. If/when I test it, I'll post results.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 14, 2019 19:56:37 GMT
I dont think there is any effective tailor for this. You bring your A game, cut all the fat, and play strictly to the mission. It's hard to play to the mission when your units are vaporized the moment 3 repulsors see them. If the top ITC Tau player gets vaporized by this list (he won NOVA by the way) tight game play isn't a great answer either. It's the most unfun thing I have ever played against. At least a castellan you had a chance against. This is the perfect storm: nearly unkillable units and massive fire output. It's a diamond cannon. That's my point. There is nothing we have that is going to weather this storm well. |
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Post by killercroc on Oct 14, 2019 21:07:46 GMT
6 Fexes or bust. I think Custodies will get their power buff eventually. They're taking turns with each codex at this point, Aeldari and Ynnari look like they'll be in a decent spot after their nerf hammer. Marines are still an elite army - despite what damage they output against us (specifically horde armies suffer badly - other tougher armies are fine. Such as Other Marines and Knights *sarcasm*) they do lose a hefty amount for every model that dies. If you switch off their tools, the pain goes away quickly. The trick is then to have numerous vectors of threat, and to deal mortal wounds directly. On that note, Zoanthropes are a great idea. I'd almost go as far as to say that 12 (6+6 or 4+4+4) are not out of place. Biovores help greatly, and leaving a mountain of spores to clear up is vexing for many, especially those which less movement. It helps too when you don't rely on charging, since marines need to shoot AND charge to be a veritable threat (not to say their shooting is not scary, but it's not drastically improved in most cases where they still need to move), so their greatest weakness is ironically a ranged shooting army. The issue with Zoey? I think d3+3 doesn't kill enough Primaris, with their 2W stat line they actually need to be shot by Exocrines to be in danger. Likewise bikes but you basically fight through a 3++ badly so you're screwed there. IH are so borked though. 4+ OW, 4+ DtW, 5++,4+++ or 5+++ vs mortal wounds, no Heavy and auto rr1s, bloody hell... I have looked at using 6 Carnifex before, was mostly just for fun but now it might be the new way to play, at least until our codex gets upgraded? The question is how to play them? At first I thought just Scythes and Adrenals, keeps them nice and cheap at 87 points and even with a low S of 6 against most marines they'll still wound on 3's and having AP -3, 3 Dmg they're good at reducing the save and even slicing through the new 3 wound marines. (Honestly 3 wound marines what the hell...) Downside is making it into combat before they're all deleted, so there is just 6 shooty fex, nothing with our ranged attacks really fully negate a marines Sv and W but they can at least start doing damage T1 and that's the best we can hope for. It might be worth it to try a Mortal spam against them. Neuros, Zoans and Biovores. Smite will get backed up though pretty bad because none of our stuff got brotherhood so past the 3rd smite you're looking at less and less returns... but units of 3 Neuros, 3 Zoans and 3 Biovores does pump out possibly enough mortal to be worth it...Downside is way pay a huge premium just to try and deal mortal wounds. 3 Neuros, 3 4x Zoans and 3 3x Bios is 1200 points, which just assuming every smite does go off looks at an average of 18 mortal wounds from smites and about 4 mortal wounds from vores... so 1200 points to do a generous 22 mortal wounds. It's iffy I'll tell you. I dont think there is any effective tailor for this. You bring your A game, cut all the fat, and play strictly to the mission. There is no more wiggle room. Even playing the mission will be tough, getting tabled T3 doesn't matter how well you play for the mission. Suring up lists will help a bit however. As I discussed this with people at the games store my logic was, I'm going to have to tailor against their armies for a chance to win, I'm sure they won't like list tailoring but if the alternative is an effectively assured loss if I don't then why even bother playing? If I have to bring my A game to fight a standard marine list and just hope to win, hell I don't see the reason to play them anymore. |
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 14, 2019 21:45:51 GMT
/shrug there's not a lot to tailor. We aren't exactly drowning in options. Hence, tighten up, play right, and hold on. Or dont play, which is a (please do not swear) option.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 14, 2019 21:46:45 GMT
Go get some games in, see what you can figure out.
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Post by dranzyl on Oct 14, 2019 21:47:36 GMT
Play to the mission, accept you cant deal with the opponent straight up and play keep away, bring the most try hard list to a casual game to not be tabled turn 3, be a master tactician and hope your opponent forgot his brain in the car ...
Am i the only one getting 7th edition vibes here?
Lets hope that if you can deal 'some' damage their offensive output drops enough to at least have a game.
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