Fighting Marines, do we need to tailor?

[gigasnail]

7th edition seems like a pretty apt comparison. The game is in the middle of a massive power shift, and the toys are not even close to being evenly distributed. Be interesting to see how things shake out as these new releases roll out.

[killercroc]

Lets hope GW doesn't take too long in addressing other codexes. They did Marines now Eldar/Dark Eldar/Yannari so that's a few out of the way. Now this could be me but it seems GW has never learned how to power up yet balance armies, it always works out each codex gets 1-5% better than the last one so by the time the last codex gets a new book the first one is completely outdone. I mean... it feels like it's been that way every edition since 5th but I dunno there might have been a few bomb codexes in there I don't remember.

Anyone else getting a Warmachine vibe to 40k now? There was always the "Everything is overpowered therefore nothing is overpowered" feeling to that game and I'm really seeing that in 40k, especially since where I started in 4th/5th Ed the difference in lists and armies now compared to back in the day are so utterly different.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I have been getting the everything. Is overpowered so nothing is vibe. I think it just doubles down on the fact that alpha strike is insanely powerful in 40k. If you can eliminate your opponents forces before they can move, then you win. My first game against the new marines basically came down to each army almost smacking each other off the table on each turn. The prevalence for alpha strike is the reason I want to retry some jormungandr lists: can I survive with them against the new space marines?

[No One]

killercroc said:

Lets hope GW doesn't take too long in addressing other codexes. They did Marines now Eldar/Dark Eldar/Yannari so that's a few out of the way. Now this could be me but it seems GW has never learned how to power up yet balance armies, it always works out each codex gets 1-5% better than the last one so by the time the last codex gets a new book the first one is completely outdone. I mean... it feels like it's been that way every edition since 5th but I dunno there might have been a few bomb codexes in there I don't remember.

Yeah, they don't even do this consistently. While there's generally an upwards trend, you still get stuff like 8th Ed 'Crons, 7th Ed DE/CSM etc.

[brianb9999]

Oct 14, 2019 18:14:43 GMT kazetanade said:

6 Fexes or bust.

The trick is then to have numerous vectors of threat, and to deal mortal wounds directly. On that note, Zoanthropes are a great idea. I'd almost go as far as to say that 12 (6+6 or 4+4+4) are not out of place. Biovores help greatly, and leaving a mountain of spores to clear up is vexing for many, especially those which less movement. It helps too when you don't rely on charging, since marines need to shoot AND charge to be a veritable threat (not to say their shooting is not scary, but it's not drastically improved in most cases where they still need to move), so their greatest weakness is ironically a ranged shooting army.

I’ve come to basically the same conclusions after the marine-fest that was the Michigan GT. I have already added 3 zoans and will likely go up to 12 shortly and try the biovore strategy in earnest. I don’t have nearly enough termagants to run the true gaunt carpet list, but I’m going to try with what I’ve got and keep you posted on how it performs.

And yes, I believe a ranged shooting army like IG would be a great counter. Aggressors for example are nasty, but they also only move 5 and shoot 18. So lots of long-range and ignore LOS guns should help. Not coincidentally, this will be my standard IG list the next few months

[killercroc]

I was looking at Thornbacks now maybe they are viable? Dual Deathspitters and Stranglethorn, all S7 AP -1 with ignore cover does help at least a little against marines, downside is you'll very rarely get that +1 to hit with the Stranglethorn so ES will be a necessity, plus SC to try and negate their shooting coming to 119 a piece, not super cheap but they do offer some counter to marines positive traits. Could try pure melee but my experience is they always die long before they get into combat, however I think max I've run was 5 and that was mix... maybe 6 pure melee with OOE is the right choice?

I'm curious about the Gaunt carpet, I have the numbers for it but mine always get blasted away so quickly and are luck to kill 1-2 marines I just don't know how worth it they are. Next time I'll try with 90 pure Fleshborer no upgrades and see how well they hold off marines.

I'm curious what will be done with Guard as well, a few months ago I debated between Marines and Guard and picked Guard cause I figure they can nicely go with my GSC as well so it's a 2-1 army. Now I'm getting the "You chose... poorly" vibe from Last Crusade. I went with an infantry heavy Guard because I guess I just cant escape the horde no matter where I go! Lots of infantry, Heavy and Special teams, but now the rule of 3 makes it almost impossible to play pure infantry Guard so I'm mixing in some Russ and artillery support.

[xsquidz]

I have never done the gaunt carpet myself but I think you need/want at least 180 guys and then a few heavy hitters like Hive Guard to try to take out their big guns etc. In the new marine meta I don't like 90 gants will last more then 1-2 turns.

[killercroc]

Now I'm wondering if "Brood Brother Carpet" is the way to go. Same points as a Gaunt, Same stats except they have a better ranged gun so they can shoot back (As pitifully as it were) and they have a 5+ save so they actually have something against Heavy Bolters and Bolt rifles. Downsides, no fearless unless you take a Patriarch, alternatively you could take a Lord Commissar which as I understand it gets Brood Brothers so becomes Ld 10 so while not fearless they units will be Ld 10 which is something?

[hammerhand]

the downside of the brood brother carpet is that they are not fearless. your casualties will be high from running brothers. the purpose is not making damage but bogging down, deny area and generally keep the opponent busy with removing cheap models.
imho gaunt carpet is not easy to play.

[kazetanade]

Gaunt carpet is a tiring, taxing, and unrewarding type of list to play. Just because its effective doesnt mean it's a good choice, in this case.

[killercroc]

How do BB not bog down as effectively as Gaunts? Same points for a slightly tankier blob, Lord Commissars are only 30 points now, giving Ld 10 6" auras they're effectively 30 point Synapse creatures. If you take them in units of 10 instead of 20 the casualties won't matter as much and 6 units of 10 BB cover as much area as 2 units of 30 gaunts, if anything they cover more area as you can spread out 10 man units to block off more of an area than you can blobs of 30. LD wise you could lose 9 out of 10 and a roll of a 1 will keep that last one alive, the point of gaunts is to take forever to kill right? So why not 5+ sv gaunts over 6+ save gaunts? They'll take 16% more effort to kill and even if you do lose one or two to morale you would lose more gaunts than that just from the worse save in general. Plus the cheapest Synapse unit is 70 points so even then you get 2 Lord Commissars for cheaper than that.

I'm seeing BB carpet just as Gaunt carpet but more flexible, even if the point isn't to do damage every model they kill is something above what Gaunt carpet would do.

Oct 16, 2019 14:52:24 GMT kazetanade said:

Gaunt carpet is a tiring, taxing, and unrewarding type of list to play. Just because its effective doesnt mean it's a good choice, in this case.

I've never really played Gaunt Carpet, usually if I bring Gaunts it's with the idea they'll do something (I know, I'm an optimist) currently I'm just entertaining it as a potential way to counter play. Do I want to play my nids with 180+ plus gaunts? No. Nor should I have to, if the only effective option I have is to bring 720 points of dead weight just to slow the enemy that's not an attractive option to me. I've never been about Gaunt spam and my lists have generally been pretty mixed and I'd prefer to keep it that way, however if the only practical way to beat the new marines is this strategy well... Tyranids adapt and so too must I.

[kazetanade]

IG BB detachments only give you half cp; you're already hungry for cp and you're already hungry for detachment benefits, and a 3 x 10 man squad does NOT spread out better than a 30 man one (the 3x10 covers radius better, but the 30 man squad does Distance spectacularly and is one of the keys to the Acolyte Spam list concepts). The Lord Commissar makes sense in a vacuum, but I would say it's a bad choice of investment. Even the Patty is marginally better since it can still be brought into the sky, has psychic presence, can maul things that get close.

Synapse is also 12" instead of 6", meaning you get a much further breadth of coverage. Considering most Gaunt Carpets are 6+++ as their defensive features and most Marines are doing -1ap base now anyway, BB and Gaunts have the exact same defense characteristic.

[killercroc]

Oct 16, 2019 15:33:08 GMT kazetanade said:

IG BB detachments only give you half cp; you're already hungry for cp and you're already hungry for detachment benefits, and a 3 x 10 man squad does NOT spread out better than a 30 man one (the 3x10 covers radius better, but the 30 man squad does Distance spectacularly and is one of the keys to the Acolyte Spam list concepts). The Lord Commissar makes sense in a vacuum, but I would say it's a bad choice of investment. Even the Patty is marginally better since it can still be brought into the sky, has psychic presence, can maul things that get close.

Synapse is also 12" instead of 6", meaning you get a much further breadth of coverage. Considering most Gaunt Carpets are 6+++ as their defensive features and most Marines are doing -1ap base now anyway, BB and Gaunts have the exact same defense characteristic.

So I might have read this wrong but I thought in the codex it said you could add IG units into the GSC detachment, ignoring the 'Astra Militarum' keyword and replacing it with 'Brood Brothers', and <CULT> units and BROOD BROTHERS made a detachment battle forged still? Maybe I got that wrong, I was assuming you could add infantry units into a GSC detachment and it was still forged, it's pure IG detachments gave half command points? If it doesn't count as battle forged then yeah that does pose an issue but they really need to be more clear about what keywords count at what time, because if IG units get BB but don't count as BB HOWEVER you can add BB to your force and BB count as battle forged if its the BB units from the GSC codex... but BB from the IG don't count as battle forged even though it's the same keyword... which is it!!!

I guess it depends on the deployment and the mission if you want 3x10 or 30? I was looking at 3X10 as you can block off more deepstrike/outflanking units, put them in rows to create a deeper wall of infantry to block charges, plus even if they crush one unit and pile into another they'll just kill the first 10 and all the extra attacks are a waste? 10 man assault squad with 30 attacks will on average kill 11 gaunts without any aura buffs so all the extra wounds from re-rolls won't spread past the first 10, that was my initial idea at the very least. I looked at the Lord Commissar mainly for how cheap he is, I did think of patty but a 125 investment for morale is a lot of points (even with his other abilities), but 60 points for two peak caps to keep everyone in line was palatable.

I'm assuming the Gaunt Carpet assumes that they are from a Leviathan detachment? I was hoping to keep everything the same detachment so Synpase web isn't creature specific... Either way if you're running Levi the 12" Synapse doesn't matter cause they need to be within 6" to get the 6+++ meaning the range difference of 12" Synapse to 6" LC aura is moot.

[xsquidz]

I think the best carpet is neophytes, run them as rusted claw for the +1 save vs AP 0 or -1, then use patriarch for fearless and iconward for a 6+++, or make them bladed cog for a base 6++ and 6+++ with the iconward. One nice thing about the gaunt wall is you can chain back into unit to 1 malenthrope and make them all -1 to be shot and if they are that close to him, they can all be leviathan for a 6+++.

[No One]

killercroc said:

So I might have read this wrong but I thought in the codex it said you could add IG units into the GSC detachment, ignoring the 'Astra Militarum' keyword and replacing it with 'Brood Brothers', and <CULT> units and BROOD BROTHERS made a detachment battle forged still? Maybe I got that wrong, I was assuming you could add infantry units into a GSC detachment and it was still forged, it's pure IG detachments gave half command points? If it doesn't count as battle forged then yeah that does pose an issue but they really need to be more clear about what keywords count at what time, because if IG units get BB but don't count as BB HOWEVER you can add BB to your force and BB count as battle forged if its the BB units from the GSC codex... but BB from the IG don't count as battle forged even though it's the same keyword... which is it!!!

The only way IG get the BB Keyword is if they're in an <Astra Militarum> det. Then <Regiment> is replaced with <BB>, and other caveats about getting around battleforged, half CP etc.