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Post by killercroc on Oct 24, 2019 20:18:04 GMT
I have thought about that as well mind you, Just take more Genestealers. The most I've ever fielded was 60 with 2 Broodlords and that was pretty brutal for my opponent, I have roughly 80 built and another 4 boxes still to assemble so I could go for that nice 100 stealer swarm and see how that goes. In my last game my opponent wiped out 29 in T1 but if I had 60 total the 31 remaining would have ripped apart his army. It just depends on what you have, what they have,a nd what does anything. Last game If I dropped DS/HVC fex for another 20 Stealers who knows I might have won? It's hard to tell but moderation is not the answer that's for sure.
I have been thinking about running 60 hormies no upgrades out front to be a distraction followed by stealers, it's delay me to a T2 charge with Stealers but if they ignore the 60 Hormies they're in trouble as well. I mean they're not THAT good but they can tie things up well enough.
I'll have to toy around with some armies later tonight, see what is better between the extreme Kraken or Jormungandr
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Post by v0iddrgn on Oct 24, 2019 21:30:03 GMT
How many infiltrators do you see running around with Primaris? This is such a pessimistic thread. You guys are telling players what's going to happen as if you magically know, mathhammer is only part of the picture. I came here for ideas and all I get is, "that smell is my army burning". Lesson learned, you have no good ideas or advice. you're going to see them commonly, because they break the rules and shut down entire army types just by showing up. this isn't pessimism, it's experience. some of these guys have been in the game 20 years at this point. you should pay attention to them instead of whining. Actually, it's the other way around, most these comments are whining tinged with not a small dose of pessimism. I'm asking for more ideas like the ones being offered up by Killercroc, not you. Don't lecture me about years experience, you have no idea how many years experience I have. |
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Post by mule on Oct 24, 2019 22:17:41 GMT
Hmm... I was thinking about trying to double down on kraken and go with 100 genestealers again. You slowed down one unit and crippled a second? Great, here's three more that will destroy a large portion of your army. Granted I'm also thinking about trying the slow and steady jormungandr approach and try to out shoot and out tough the marines. I'm really interested to see how your list plays out. It's definitely given me a lot to think about as I generally don't run jormungandr bombs. I did a nid vs nid game against a dude who put down 100 genestealers. It wasnt pleasant. I messed up and didnt pull fully out of charge range so his unit of stealers got in on mine first. Even if ingot first charge and traded one of my 2 units for 2 of his i feel id still be behind. It was funny. I just feel with the amount of bolter shots coming in now youre probably not going to make it far with 100 stealers without swarmy and swarmy + 100 stealers is more or less your list. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Oct 24, 2019 22:26:20 GMT
Hmm... I was thinking about trying to double down on kraken and go with 100 genestealers again. You slowed down one unit and crippled a second? Great, here's three more that will destroy a large portion of your army. Granted I'm also thinking about trying the slow and steady jormungandr approach and try to out shoot and out tough the marines. I'm really interested to see how your list plays out. It's definitely given me a lot to think about as I generally don't run jormungandr bombs. I did a nid vs nid game against a dude who put down 100 genestealers. It wasnt pleasant. I messed up and didnt pull fully out of charge range so his unit of stealers got in on mine first. Even if ingot first charge and traded one of my 2 units for 2 of his i feel id still be behind. It was funny. I just feel with the amount of bolter shots coming in now youre probably not going to make it far with 100 stealers without swarmy and swarmy + 100 stealers is more or less your list. Yup! When I ran this prior, I ran swarmy, 100 genestealers, neurothropes, venomthropes, and rippers. The list hits really hard, so I'm hoping we can use that to wipe threats off the table. I'm hoping that the infantry units will have to move closer to us if I go second. All of this is just theorycraft though. |
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 24, 2019 22:52:33 GMT
you're going to see them commonly, because they break the rules and shut down entire army types just by showing up. this isn't pessimism, it's experience. some of these guys have been in the game 20 years at this point. you should pay attention to them instead of whining. Actually, it's the other way around, most these comments are whining tinged with not a small dose of pessimism. I'm asking for more ideas like the ones being offered up by Killercroc, not you. Don't lecture me about years experience, you have no idea how many years experience I have. Ok sparky. Good luck. |
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Post by killercroc on Oct 25, 2019 1:18:55 GMT
So While I didn't come up with a list exactly I did come up with a few combos that might work I swear I sat down to write a list but everything was distracting me and I couldn't focus... Anyway
Malanthrope warlord with jorm trait, he has a base 3" aura anyway so the warlord trait is great, everything within 3" of him gets -1 to be hit and Ignores cover with their guns. Put him next to your flavor of big gun bugs, could be a brood of Carnifex in a low point game, DS & HVC/SC for maximum dakka. You don't need to buy them spore cysts as they'll get the -1 from Mala so that saves you 30 points for more gaunt shields. Also give him a big unit of 9 DS/VC warriors for increased firepower. Since we're looking at fighting marines the DS being S5/7 will counter their toughness and AP will drop their survivability, plus the VC/HVC will work great at cracking any armored support from range. Marines are a pain to fight within 24" but lose a lot of firepower while moving, you can deploy just out of 24" so we don't get double tapped if they go first however if we go first moving and shooting with all of those units is A-OK. Marine player thinking he will have a 2+ in cover will be sadly mistaken when all his units are just getting 4+, not to mention Scouts with cloaks being very squishy at just a 5+ or 6+ with cannons. Take away an elite army's strengths and show them what it's like fighting uphill!
In larger games you can try triple Exocrine or Tyrannofex even. Triple Exo is great with their 36" range making them safe from all but their large guns that we can't escape anyway. Use them to blast holes in the battle lines. If your opponent has those 12" deny marines, focus them down with Exos, if not try and pick a flank and hit it hard T1/2 while you wait for reinforcements. S7 AP -3 2Dmg ignores cover can pick apart anything they'll have, just make sure to take lots of gaunt screens to protect you from the marines. T1 Drop pods are back so have a big enough gap between the gaunts and MCs that you're not getting caught by 10 rapid firing combi-plasma Sternguard. Having 3 layers of gaunts 6" or more away from your fire base should be good.
With the rest of the points be dropping dakka bombs, 3 raveners can easily fit 30 gaunts plus friends, Shock guard, Zoans or a Neuro, more warriors, etc. Whatever can add to the fire power. Rough math says 30 dakkagaunts will kill 9 marines in the open or 4 in cover, after 1-2 turns of your fire base shooting these should be able to clear out the rest, and using double tap if need be. Two schools of thought here is to have one huge bomb with your entire army in it or two smaller similar bombs to create a flanking attack where you can make your opponent split their attention. Just 3 raveners, 30 dakkagaunts, 6 shock guard and a Neuro can do massive amounts of damage and only running a rough 633 points.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 25, 2019 3:17:58 GMT
Give it a try, let us know how it works. The last time I used the Jorg drop was when knights and IG ruled, so with so much less chaff running around it could work.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 25, 2019 4:38:26 GMT
we just had a thread going over triple tfex, conclusion from everyone was that it was kind of a bad idea for a number of reasons. malanthrope price hike needs to be reversed in today's meta. tfexes need serious help as a gun platform.
mass stealer assault has been tried, no one's gotten it to work outside of casualtown with straight nids. SL is a one trick pony, and it's quite a trick but he's too vulnerable. GSC does this shtick better but even then it's seat of the pants flying. you're also going to run into time constraints competitively with moving all the stealers/cultists.
jorm drops with ravener delivered shock guard i like, but the cost for the units kind of starts to stack up and with the anti-deep strike units and infiltrating screening units around i don't know how much mileage we're going to get out if it.
like kaze said, put some units down and see how it goes.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Oct 25, 2019 11:59:02 GMT
we just had a thread going over triple tfex, conclusion from everyone was that it was kind of a bad idea for a number of reasons. malanthrope price hike needs to be reversed in today's meta. tfexes need serious help as a gun platform. I thought a lot of the comparisons there were against the executioner and most were that + ironhands? Might be misremembering though. I think the toughness of the tfex is a big leg up against infantry spam marines. The advantage too is that it can pop aggressors pretty effectively. |
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Post by killercroc on Oct 25, 2019 12:44:13 GMT
Yeah Tfex is bad against the EXE but not against everything, it's effective against light and medium vehicles and even with none of those it's a threat to marines. My only problem with it is I roll horribly average, every time it's 3 hits and 2 wounds so its never killed anything in one salvo so thats why I was thinking I'd need to bring 3 of them. I agree Malanthropes points make no sense now, hell it was fine before but for 140 just for a -1 to hit is some bull (please do not swear). There are named characters with amazing stats, relics and 3 aura abilities for that cost, honestly I think the people working at FW are just incompetent and incapable of writing balanced rules to save their lives.
I know the cost of Jorm bombs does stack up and can be iffy with area denial, but it beats getting blasted off the table T1 before they even get to move. I'm not playing hyper competitive people most of the time so there are a few things I'm not worried about, which is also why I don't run stealer spam because it's nasty. But now I look at it why shouldn't I? They all play 3+ to hit armies with re-rolls to hit, re-roll wounds of 1 with 2 wound marines so spamming toxic stealers would only be fair. Or spamming Exo and take them out from range, focus all their long ranged units first and save the rest for the drops.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Oct 25, 2019 12:50:20 GMT
One other thing to consider is that the different marine chapters will probably have drastically different lists or tactics. I think it's much harder to come up with a take all comers list against marines. Am I wrong in this assessment?
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Post by No One on Oct 25, 2019 12:59:42 GMT
No, that's pretty accurate. Even same Chapter there can be a few different builds
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Post by killercroc on Oct 25, 2019 13:07:17 GMT
You're correct but for the most part "Shoot them til they die" is a universal tactic.
I have these Marine players I fight against:
Death Guard with Zombie/Infantry spam & Drone support
Raven Guard with long range fire support from Devestators and Centurions and 2-3 hard hitting melee units usually Vanguard & Assault terminators with Chaplain.
Dark Angels with lots of bikers led by Sammy
Thousand sons that spam characters for max powers
Salamanders that spam heavy infantry and go full firepower taking min scouts for troops
Blood angels that have heavy support units form a fire base while their special elite assault marines deep strike and charge.
Ultramarines that are pretty shooty with multiple Contemptor/Leviathan support
I use to be able to out combat them but now that isn't an option, army wide they got an extra attack and even more rules for free so playing my army as it should doesn't cut it. Until they switch up their list from infantry spam I'm going to take our hard hitting shooty bugs and try to beat them out with those. Exocrine melt through just about everything I fight, and like I said I can't hide from their heavy weapons at all but I can minimize the effectiveness of their basic units and try to just outlive their shooting. Even with all the re-rolls Lascannon Devs will still have a hard time with 3 T8 12W 2+ sv -1 to hit bugs.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 25, 2019 14:47:45 GMT
Marines all play pretty differently - IH support mobile and tough to kill heavy weapon platforms, Salamanders support midrange ground holding infantry, RG support precision striking and lots of positional setups, UM support marching gun lines. WS supports lots and lots of aggressive melee primaris, and Invictors.
Barr Executioners, Exocrines are the best weapon against marines. Issue being sniped by lascannons, or Executioners, or touched by Invictors. Its a legit monster to control vectors, except during the Knight meta.
Exos still aren't the best thing around, but they're not the worst. The TFex is noticeably worse due to low volume of shots and variable damage, and being beat by the opposite weapons platforms (though tbf if the TFex was 3+ and had the CM reroll, he'd have a decent chance, since the chassis is not too bad for cost).
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Post by dc0315 on Oct 25, 2019 14:53:38 GMT
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