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Post by yoritomo on Mar 3, 2014 5:24:35 GMT
With a new tyranid codex come a new versus thread for Tau. The purpose of this thread is to discuss how our new codex can deal with this army in general. This is not a place to post army lists for review. This is a place to discuss what units work against the Tau, what units we should watch out for, tactics and army builds we expect to see when playing tau, allies they usually take, and questions you might have before or after fighting a Tau opponent.
Fair warning, the versus threads will stay on topic at all times. The moderating staff reserves the right to move or delete any post they deem off topic, incoherent, flat out wrong, or confusing to read (i.e. out of context due to previous posts being removed). This is a serious discussion geared towards people who want to play better against the Tau, so let's act like it.
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Post by tag8833 on Mar 3, 2014 22:41:52 GMT
My primary opponent is Tau (technically Farsight). I regularly struggle against him. His volume of long range ignore cover shooting makes it impossible for me to castle up, and jump out in the last turn. Our most recent game, I brought a bastion with comms, 2 Flyrants, 2 Mawlocs, a Trygon Prime, and 2 units of 30 outflanking gaunts (each with 20 Devourers). In turn 1 I stayed out of range and/or behind my bastion. Turn 2 saw me come in with 30 gaunts (which he intercepted, and they ran off the board before shooting), both Mawlocs (one misshaped, and was misplaced), Trygon prime and both flyrants. I killed a skyray, 1 and 1/2 crises suites, and 1 marker light. On his turn, he killed a flyrant w/ FNP, Trygon Prime, and 1 Mawloc, all despite having intercepted my gaunts with 2 Riptides.
It is nearly impossible for me to keep him from getting first blood because of SMS, and his large unit sizes. His commander is an IC, and hides inside units. Linebreaker is my only viable point beyond objectives. His riptides can tarpit anything I have, and tend to take the last wound or two off of my flyrants in assault.
The only games that I play him even on are games where he tailors down to me by running smaller squads, and replacing 1 or 2 riptides with Kroot. What is there in the Tyranid codex that can compete with a Farsight force with 3 Riptides, 2 skyrays, 3 Broadsides, and a couple squads of crisis suites with marker drones. Mawlocs worked for a while, but now he stays on 2nd floor levels so that they have no targets.
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Post by jjuetten on Mar 4, 2014 16:17:53 GMT
Read Bebe's battle against some Tau. Not sure if he played against a similar force or not but it's likely. He straight up owned the Tau he played against. Skyblight swarm the (please do not swear) out of your enemy. Also, Pinning is the bane of all Tau. If you don't have the models to field Skyblight yet (I know I don't) then start rocking some Biovores and Warriors with Barbed Stranglers. You'll have superior range with those things compared to most Tau, which is a feat in itself, and the Biovores don't need LOS to barrage the troops. Keep their troops pinned as best you can and you can start advancing en masse. Take out your Trygon Prime and a Mawloc for this option. Add in some Dakkafexes (3 x at 450 pts, maybe regen on your lead guy so you can absorb more wounds). That should even things up a bit. Dakkafexes can march upfield very well, especially if they have a Venomthrope in tow. And a lot of people are now doing the Tyranid Prime + DakkaFexes for some great Shenanigans. I did that just this last weekend. It was great. Also, as Tyranids you need to be more aggressive. Talking about castling up? That doesn't work for us very well as our range is just too short in most instances. Maybe keep the Flyrants back on first turn so they don't get killed super quick, move them up 2nd turn when you deep strike the Mawloc (Mawloc ability goes off BEFORE Interceptor), and then you'll have the Dakkafexes, Mawloc, and Flyrants close to in his face on Turn two if you rolled the Dawn of War deployment. Good luck man. Edit: Forgot to add the link to Bebe's list/post... Bebe's Flying Circus |
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Post by tag8833 on Mar 4, 2014 23:59:29 GMT
Dakkafexes can march upfield very well, especially if they have a Venomthrope in tow. And a lot of people are now doing the Tyranid Prime + DakkaFexes for some great Shenanigans. I did that just this last weekend. It was great. I tried that out a couple of games ago. I ran 3 Dakkafexes with Adrenals. He got first turn, so I deployed them mostly in ruins with a unit of venom behind, and Tyranid prime joined to the Venom to protect it. My first 2 Fexes had a 2+ cover, and the 3rd had a 3+. All 3 Dakkafexes were dead before I got my turn. It was the single worst turn 1 I have ever had. They can't march upfield if they die before they take their first step. He got lucky, in most games one of them would have survived, but I'm still dubious about their usefulness against tau. Maybe keep the Flyrants back on first turn so they don't get killed super quick, move them up 2nd turn when you deep strike the Mawloc (Mawloc ability goes off BEFORE Interceptor), and then you'll have the Dakkafexes, Mawloc, and Flyrants close to in his face on Turn two if you rolled the Dawn of War deployment. As I said, Flyrants stay out of sight behind the bastion on turn 1. Turn 2, they advance at the same time that I put 1 Mawloc, 1 Trygon Prime, and 30 Gaunts into his deployment zone. Bebe's Opponent clearly runs a far less powerful tau list. Firewarriors, Hammerheads. Those units are not OP, and very beatable. When my buddy the Tau player brings firewarriors, I tend to do just fine. It is when he brings nothing but Broadsides, Riptides, Crises suits, Marker Drones, and maybe skyrays that he becomes invincible. I probably do need to run Skyblight to stand a chance, but as you suggested, Crones/Harpies are pricey, and I don't have any yet. I'm also dubious because my opponent runs his riptides pretty smart (they are Jump MCs), and would not hesitate to smash attack a grounded crone, and unless I can tarpit them with something, a flyrant with Reaper of Obliterax would never ever see assault. I think much of the myth of Tau's beatability comes from experience against players who play Riptides too passively. |
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Post by gigasnail on Mar 5, 2014 2:50:25 GMT
"Turn 2 saw me come in with 30 gaunts (which he intercepted, and they ran off the board before shooting)"
run off the board from what? wounds from getting shot via interceptor, or IB? because you don't test for IB that first phase when you come on from reserves. BRB, page 124, last sentence.
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Post by jjuetten on Mar 6, 2014 14:01:37 GMT
When my buddy the Tau player brings firewarriors, I tend to do just fine. It is when he brings nothing but Broadsides, Riptides, Crises suits, Marker Drones, and maybe skyrays that he becomes invincible. I probably do need to run Skyblight to stand a chance, but as you suggested, Crones/Harpies are pricey, and I don't have any yet. I'm also dubious because my opponent runs his riptides pretty smart (they are Jump MCs), and would not hesitate to smash attack a grounded crone, and unless I can tarpit them with something, a flyrant with Reaper of Obliterax would never ever see assault. I think much of the myth of Tau's beatability comes from experience against players who play Riptides too passively. I don't really have much experience against such a Tau list myself so I can't attest to that. But I can say that in my small group our current newbie Tau player is very passive. He always sits back and expects to be able to castle the entire game. That is becoming less and less useful for him as I'm starting to win more and more. Granted he only has about 1000pt of Tau right now. He is planning on getting some crisis suits and broadsides, but that's a bit in the future at the moment ($$$ issues). That being said, I'd love to hear from others that have experience with similar lists that you play against. I dropped a Trygon Prime right in the backfield on my last game and it took a whole round of shooting from: 2 Riptides with Interceptor, 10 Fire Warriors, 20x Cultists, 1 unit of 3x Havocs with 2 Lascannons (I killed two lascannons after deepstrike right away), 5x Havocs with Autocannons, and 1x10 Necron warriors. Average rolls for all, took 3 wounds. That was a LOT of firepower that didn't fire at my advancing army which I'm very thankful for as I was playing Hammer and Anvil with three of my friends allied up. Lascannons were the most damaging in that barrage. Obviously I didn't face off against broadsides or crisis suits and I think that would have downed me just about immediately. But still, that's a lot to take on. I'm surprised you aren't having similar luck with your Trygon Prime. Are you getting (please do not swear) rolls or is he using loaded dice? Because all those Mawlocs should be able to take out his infantry while your Trygon prime focuses on all his other suits. |
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Post by tag8833 on Mar 7, 2014 7:02:21 GMT
"Turn 2 saw me come in with 30 gaunts (which he intercepted, and they ran off the board before shooting)" run off the board from what? wounds from getting shot via interceptor, or IB? because you don't test for IB that first phase when you come on from reserves. BRB, page 124, last sentence. Getting shot by interceptor caused a leadership test. They were out of synapse, and thus not fearless. It was vanguard deployment, so it was relatively challenging to get my synapse into range, and there was a reasonable chance that they could have failed IB on their next turn, but I was counting on getting at least one good round of 70 shots in.
In retrospect, I should have outflanked them right next to Trygon prime. I wouldn't have been able to shoot anything but riptides, but at least they would have had synapse. One of his riptides was running without FNP, and between Devilgaunts and Trygon prime I might have been able to kill it. The skyray was a surer thing, but as long as my gaunts shot first, my trygon could still try for the skyray if it wasn't going well.
I do make tactical mistakes like outflanking at the wrong spot. I'm not claiming to play perfect games, but when my opponent brings his all suit/marker drone list, his mistakes become irrelevant, because I lack the firepower to do much to his army. Honestly, the issue isn't really the firepower of his list, or the range. I want Tau to have more of those things, because that is who they are. The real issue is the powerful armor / invul / toughness/ wounds. If I can put together a list that can get up close, and bring lots of firepower to bear, I feel like I should be able to kill something, and I can't. Riptides 2+/5++/5+ FNP 5W, Broadsides 2+ 2W, Crises suites 3+ 2W. Imagine if Carnifexes had a 2+, and 5 wounds, and could get FNP. Or Warriors had a 3+, and could shoot 2 weapons. Or if Rupture Cannon Tfexes put out 8 - 12 TL shots. Compared to Tau, Tyranids are made of wet newspaper.
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Post by gigasnail on Mar 7, 2014 7:06:57 GMT
good deal. just wanted to be sure, it's a common mistake.
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Post by gman25639 on Mar 9, 2014 19:52:08 GMT
As a tau player I can attest to the vulnerability of a tau to massed deep striking. I'd say a solid counter would be a trygon prime or 2 accompanied by raveners and perhaps some rippers or gargoyles. The key is to close the distance as quickly as possible, but be careful, pulse rifles can be absolutely devastating within rapid fire range, which for them is 15" , and the combine overwatch most units get can hurt your CC units, especially things like twin-linked rapid fire weapons. So to mitigate the massed pulse rifle fire, multiple blast weapons are a MUST to take out squishy fire warriors. The heavy venom cannon could be of use here as being AP 4 fire warriors don't get an armor save. STC can be useful as well to pin them down in the early turns. Overall, pie plates, deep striking en masse and fast moving stuff closing the distance as quickly as possible is what you want to roll with.
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Post by tylertt on Mar 9, 2014 20:56:34 GMT
The true solution to Fire Warriors is Biovores. AP4 Barrage, up to 3 blasts, and if miss, then Spore Mines cause disruption. HVC is terrible choice on a whole. The platforms that can take it have access to TL Devs (Excluding Harpy), and massed wounds will do a lot better then one small blast marker that will maybe hit 2 or 3 guys per turn if your lucky.
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Post by tag8833 on Mar 10, 2014 21:33:03 GMT
As a tau player I can attest to the vulnerability of a tau to massed deep striking. I'd say a solid counter would be a trygon prime or 2 accompanied by raveners and perhaps some rippers or gargoyles. The key is to close the distance as quickly as possible, but be careful, pulse rifles can be absolutely devastating within rapid fire range, which for them is 15" , and the combine overwatch most units get can hurt your CC units, especially things like twin-linked rapid fire weapons. So to mitigate the massed pulse rifle fire, multiple blast weapons are a MUST to take out squishy fire warriors. The heavy venom cannon could be of use here as being AP 4 fire warriors don't get an armor save. STC can be useful as well to pin them down in the early turns. Overall, pie plates, deep striking en masse and fast moving stuff closing the distance as quickly as possible is what you want to roll with. Let us say that I did indeed bring 2 Trygon Primes for 460 points. The turn they arrive they will fire 12 s6 shots each for a total of 24. 12 of those will hit. If shooting broadsides then 10 of those will wound. The broadside will make 8.333 saves, and I will kill .83 broadsides. Basic Missilesides are 66 points.
In the next shooting phase both of my Trygon Primes will die plus another MC or 3-4 Raveners(35 points each) for a negative 79.08% return on investment. It is true that tau are vulnerable to massed deep strikes, but only if those deep striking units have ap:2 (or even ap:3) shooting. Tyranids don't have that except in the form of Mawlocs, and those are highly random, and a good tau player will mitigate their damage to 1 or 2 units using terrain, assault moves, and the board edge.
firewarriors are good (better than any Tyranid troops), but they aren't really the Tau menace. I played against tau on Saturday, and he brought 3 squads of 12 fire warriors. I would have won that game if we hadn't been convinced that Vector Strike required line of sight. The key thing that makes firewarriors not insane is that they die once in a while. I have never had a moment where 12 S6 shots failed to kill a few fire warrior. But they fail to even wound a broadside about 40% of the time.
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Post by gman25639 on Mar 10, 2014 21:43:34 GMT
Hmm... almost forgot mawlocs, 3 of them could certainly be devastating... what about 3 broods of 3 zoanthropes in a big line at the front of the army, they will soak a TON of fire with that 3+ invulnerable save.
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Post by gigasnail on Mar 10, 2014 21:45:27 GMT
Hmm... almost forgot mawlocs, 3 of them could certainly be devastating... what about 3 broods of 3 zoanthropes in a big line at the front of the army, they will soak a TON of fire with that 3+ invulnerable save. they just won't bother shooting at them until they're a threat, or until they need to die to screw your synapse. zoanthropes aren't a threat. |
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Post by gman25639 on Mar 11, 2014 3:21:45 GMT
I mean put them as the front-most unit, like in front of the gaunts, and spread them out to maximum coherency in a line across the front of the army. The zoanthropes will get in the way and they will have to try to kill them.
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Post by gigasnail on Mar 11, 2014 3:56:30 GMT
why would they have to try to kill them? they don't do anything threatening. they can either be ignored, or shot when/if it's good to cripple synapse in that area.
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