Vs. Tau v6.2

[innocent]

Mar 10, 2014 21:33:03 GMT tag8833 said:

I would have won that game if we hadn't been convinced that Vector Strike required line of sight.

Not sure if that's what you meant, but you do not need line of sight to VS. The only requirement is that you fly over a unit during the movement phase (thus you can fly off the board and still VS, Deamons players have been doing it for a year).

I feel your pain otherwise, I've yet to play 6.2 Tau, but your experience matches exactly mine prior to the new codex, and frankly I see nothing to really tip the scale. I'm going to try mass Crones and Flyrants and hope to pass enough grounding tests. Was thinking Mawlocs too, but after your post I have second thoughts. Biovores were the only glimmer of hope and they still are, but there is only so much they can do (forget about dealing with Riptides and Broadsides with them).

[tag8833]

Mar 11, 2014 14:23:40 GMT innocent said:

Mar 10, 2014 21:33:03 GMT tag8833 said:

I would have won that game if we hadn't been convinced that Vector Strike required line of sight.

Not sure if that's what you meant, but you do not need line of sight to VS. The only requirement is that you fly over a unit during the movement phase (thus you can fly off the board and still VS, Deamons players have been doing it for a year).

I feel your pain otherwise, I've yet to play 6.2 Tau, but your experience matches exactly mine prior to the new codex, and frankly I see nothing to really tip the scale. I'm going to try mass Crones and Flyrants and hope to pass enough grounding tests. Was thinking Mawlocs too, but after your post I have second thoughts. Biovores were the only glimmer of hope and they still are, but there is only so much they can do (forget about dealing with Riptides and Broadsides with them).

We played vector strike wrong assuming that it required LOS.  It wasn't until I got home, and read the rule in detail that I realized that it doesn't require LOS.  I went ahead and posted the question here, just in case my reading was incorrect:

thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/46022/vector-strike-requires-los

Mawloc's are very useful against Tau.  They were the key to all of my 4-5 victories against Tau.  Unfortunately as the Tau player became accustomed to them he made adjustments primarily using his assault moves to Line Up on the table edge, or staying on the upper level of terrain where the Mawloc can't touch him.  I went from getting 2 to 3 models with Mawloc hits to getting 1 if I'm lucky, and 1/2 of the time that 1 is a Riptide.  Almost all of my Mawloc Deep strikes are now mishaps or at least misses.  If I played a tau player not accustomed to them, I would build a list with 3 Mawlocs and a Bastion with a Comms Relay.

[zoda8]

I have lost a couple of games at 1500 points to Tau with broadsides, fire warriors, markerlights and riptides recently, but am getting a bit closer. Both times I went second which doesn't help. My star turn is 3 Biovores in a bastion. I use these to take out markerlights first, then fire warriors. Getting rid of the markerlights does make a massive difference to speed of dying. When going second I have been working on the basis that everything on the board is going to die in two turns of shooting except the bastion and biovores, so put 5 cheap units down and keep 5 decent ones in reserve. Because mine is not a list tailored to Tau, I am currently saying goodbye to one venomthrope, two zoanthropes, a hive guard and 10 devourer gaunts (although if I was tailoring the list I would just have normal ones and save 40 points). So 280 dead points whilst I drop one set of large blasts on some markerlights. I then bring in from reserve my Tervigon, Mawloc, 30 outflanking hormagaunts, Dakka Flyrant and Hive Crone. The hope is that I'll get lucky somewhere - going first/ not scattering with Mawloc/ spawning loads of termigants. We didn't finish our game last night but I was at least getting into combat. My tactic is to try to get into combat with stuff on the flanks where not every other unit can overwatch, and to attack cheapest first, so spore mines, then gaunts, then big things. The idea is either to soak up overwatch on cheap stuff, or if they don't overwatch to tie units up in combat so they can't overwatch when the bigger stuff comes in. I'm still losing but it's getting close enough to be a bit more fun.

[innocent]

Mar 13, 2014 22:54:25 GMT zoda8 said:

I have lost a couple of games at 1500 points to Tau with broadsides, fire warriors, markerlights and riptides recently, but am getting a bit closer. Both times I went second which doesn't help. My star turn is 3 Biovores in a bastion. I use these to take out markerlights first, then fire warriors. Getting rid of the markerlights does make a massive difference to speed of dying. When going second I have been working on the basis that everything on the board is going to die in two turns of shooting except the bastion and biovores, so put 5 cheap units down and keep 5 decent ones in reserve. Because mine is not a list tailored to Tau, I am currently saying goodbye to one venomthrope, two zoanthropes, a hive guard and 10 devourer gaunts (although if I was tailoring the list I would just have normal ones and save 40 points). So 280 dead points whilst I drop one set of large blasts on some markerlights. I then bring in from reserve my Tervigon, Mawloc, 30 outflanking hormagaunts, Dakka Flyrant and Hive Crone. The hope is that I'll get lucky somewhere - going first/ not scattering with Mawloc/ spawning loads of termigants. We didn't finish our game last night but I was at least getting into combat. My tactic is to try to get into combat with stuff on the flanks where not every other unit can overwatch, and to attack cheapest first, so spore mines, then gaunts, then big things. The idea is either to soak up overwatch on cheap stuff, or if they don't overwatch to tie units up in combat so they can't overwatch when the bigger stuff comes in. I'm still losing but it's getting close enough to be a bit more fun.

Sounds like a decent strategy. Loosing 280pnts to the tau alpha strike is nothing. A full Tau (or Eldar) army has the firepower to easily kill 2 to 3 Tyranid MCs a turn. I had games against those 2 where I started with a 350-550points deficit.

And this is my issue, against those list, you really need to do some damage from turn1 to whittle down their firepower. Even the 5th Ed Tervis couldn't survive that kind of punishment for 5 turns (I tried...). Long range artillerie (Biovores and Mawlocs is the way to go) is a must I think, nice to hear the mawloc has some use even though it's easily countered.

[gman25639]

If he keeps putting all his guys up in ruins where the Mawloc can't touch them, then the obvious solution is to infiltrate some lictors and/oir genestealers into said ruins and he will think twice, just put them on the opposite side of them turn one so he can't draw LOS and shoot them up, thne move up into the ruins and let the lictors start guding in your deep striking stuff whilst genestealers attack whatever they can. If he ignores them and shoots the rest of your army, then he has left genestealers sitting there to likely assault him next turn, and not going first means little if you are fighting TAU in CC, if he tries to kill them with shooting, and if you placed them right not alot should be able to see them clearly to shoot, then that is a turn he isn't firing at all your other stuff.

[yowster12]

Broadsides ignore cover and dont need line of sight. I usually face 2x 3 missilesides.... genestealers In cover or out of line of sight would meet a horrifying demise.

[tylertt]

Mar 14, 2014 17:31:13 GMT gman25639 said:

If he keeps putting all his guys up in ruins where the Mawloc can't touch them, then the obvious solution is to infiltrate some lictors and/oir genestealers into said ruins and he will think twice, just put them on the opposite side of them turn one so he can't draw LOS and shoot them up, thne move up into the ruins and let the lictors start guding in your deep striking stuff whilst genestealers attack whatever they can. If he ignores them and shoots the rest of your army, then he has left genestealers sitting there to likely assault him next turn, and not going first means little if you are fighting TAU in CC, if he tries to kill them with shooting, and if you placed them right not alot should be able to see them clearly to shoot, then that is a turn he isn't firing at all your other stuff.

You do realize your saying not going first is good against Tau with SEVERAL infiltrating units? Sure you could assault, but in all likelihood all of your infiltrating units will be dead by the end of turn 1 anyways.

Sure it would disrupt their shooting from your main force a little bit, but any smart Tau player will deploy more defensively with knowing your Genestealers or Lictors will probably be infiltrating.

All in all, your going to have a bad time.

[tag8833]

Mar 14, 2014 17:31:13 GMT gman25639 said:

If he keeps putting all his guys up in ruins where the Mawloc can't touch them, then the obvious solution is to infiltrate some lictors and/oir genestealers into said ruins and he will think twice, just put them on the opposite side of them turn one so he can't draw LOS and shoot them up, thne move up into the ruins and let the lictors start guding in your deep striking stuff whilst genestealers attack whatever they can. If he ignores them and shoots the rest of your army, then he has left genestealers sitting there to likely assault him next turn, and not going first means little if you are fighting TAU in CC, if he tries to kill them with shooting, and if you placed them right not alot should be able to see them clearly to shoot, then that is a turn he isn't firing at all your other stuff.

Sounds like a great way to give up an expensive first blood.  Here is a rundown of Tau's main weapons along with the commonness of each that I tend to see.

Name	Range	S / AP	Type	Special	How Common (# at 1850)	Units
Smart Missiles	30	5 / 5	Heavy 4	TL, Ignore Cover, Don't need LOS	Ubiquitous (8-12)	Riptides, Broadsides, All Vehicles
Missile Pods	36	7 / 4	Assault 2	Most units have 2, can be TL	Ubiquitous (8-16)	Crises Suites, Commanders
High Yield Missile Pods	36	7 / 4	Heavy 4	TL	Very Common (3-9)	Broadsides
Seeker Missiles	72	8 / 3	Heavy 1	Single Use	Common (6-12)	Skyrays have 6, other units can take them
Heavy Burst Cannon	36	6 / 4	Heavy 8	Can be Nova Charged (next line)	Common (1-2)	Riptides
HBC (Nova)	36	6 / 4	Heavy 12	Gets hot, Rending	Common (1-2)	Riptides
Ion Accelerator	72	7 / 2	Heavy 3	Can be Nova Charged (next line)	Somewhat Rare (0 1)	Riptides
IA (Nova)	72	9 / 2	Ordinance 1	Gets Hot, Large Blast	Somewhat Rare (0-1)	Riptides
Flamer	Template	4 / 5	Assault 1	Most units have 2, can be TL	Somewhat Rare (0-6)	Crises Suites (usually deep striking)
Plasma Rifle	24	6 / 2	Rapid Fire	Most units have 2, can be TL	Somewhat Rare (0-6)	Crises Suites (usually deep striking)
Pulse Rifle	30	5 / 5	Rapid Fire		Somewhat Rare (0-24)	Fire Warriors
Kroot Rifle	24	4 / 6	Rapid Fire		Very Rare (0-20)	Kroot
Kroot Rifle	24	X / 6	Heavy 1	Sniper	Very Rare (0-20)	Kroot

Also, remember that Buffmander can give any of these weapons Ignores Cover, Monster Hunter, and Twin Linking. 

And then there are marker lights that can Raise BS, give ignore Cover, or Shoot Seeker Missiles with ignores cover and without Line of sight.

Skyrays can fire all of their Seeker Missiles in the First turn and have skyfire if they want, because 115 is too steep of a price to pay for a unit that can't guarantee first blood.

Lastly, remember that Crises Suites and Riptides are jump units, and can move 12", and then get a 2nd movement.

I would say that infiltrating units against Tau, especially expensive ones with poor armor that rely on cover for survivability, is a very, very bad idea. 

If you do want to infiltrate something against Tau, a good rule of thumb is that the infiltrators should be able to handle 32 - 40 S5 AP5 hits with ignores cover, and if it is assaulty, it should also be able to handle 40 - 50 TL overwatch shots.

[yowster12]

They are Jetpack units not jump. They only move 6" their second move is anywhere between 2" and 12" depending on dice and if they are paired with a buffmander who gets the 3d6 move with warlord trait if rolled it's worse. And a riptide who uses his reactor can move 4d6 which gets it away or positioned to utterly destroy any target it chooses unless bad rolling pretty good...

[purpleshaza]

OK I'll ask What is a buffmander?

[milkybarnid]

a commander that has multiple signature systems, namely Multi spectrum sensor suite, command and control node and puretide enogram chip along the lines of that. These allow a commander to pass Ignore cover, reroll failed hits and tank/monster hunter in the shooting phase providing he doesn't shoot. he joins units to pass these on

[sando]

Any theoryhammer you may want to attempt here must be able to beat a Tau army with 1 Riptide, the riptide character, ovesha, a bufmander and tons of misilesides. Some markers and whatever troop he uses crisis or kroots.
If you are not simulating vs this killer list its useless the information you provide cause you are not playing vs a real competitive pure tau.
I have won this star army using Skyblight, lots of flyers, 60 gargoyles, 2 vengance weapon bateries with the f8/ap3 large blast and 2X2 biovores.
Just going full foward with every model and attempt for a second turn multycharge or vector strikes spam.
The batteries is a good fortification, better than bastions in my opinion they provide us with a usefull ap3 blast, they give us 2 av14 bunkers and produce a lot of harras in enemy deployment.

[WestRider]

Not everyone here competes at top levels. Some people just need info beating the Tau List that they actually play against at their local store or club, not the theoretical best.

[sloth]

the only thing i really struggle with in the Tau army is a Riptide and Marker Lights... the riptide moving -> shooting -> jet pack away is super annoying!! being able to ignore cover and what ever else it can do is a nightmare in EVERY game i play against tau.

[tag8833]

Apr 9, 2014 9:07:09 GMT sando said:

Any theoryhammer you may want to attempt here must be able to beat a Tau army with 1 Riptide, the riptide character, ovesha, a bufmander and tons of misilesides. Some markers and whatever troop he uses crisis or kroots.
If you are not simulating vs this killer list its useless the information you provide cause you are not playing vs a real competitive pure tau.

I think everyone should be allow to comment here no matter their level of Tau opponent.

Apr 9, 2014 9:07:09 GMT sando said:

I have won this star army using Skyblight, lots of flyers, 60 gargoyles, 2 vengance weapon bateries with the f8/ap3 large blast.
The batteries is a good fortification, better than bastions in my opinion they provide us with a usefull ap3 blast, they give us 2 av14 bunkers and produce a lot of harras in enemy deployment.

I didn't realize that Weapon's batteries came with a bunker. I thought the bunker was a separate formation. Most people in my local meta frown on Stronghold / apocalypse / forgeworld units, but I've seem many Tyranid players recommend the Firestorm Redoubt as a good fortification as well.