No One's 9th Ed Lists

[piersonsmuppet]

Did you get a lot of use out of the Biovores? I would think dropping 2 Biovores to have 6 Pyros in the Tcyte would be better (1 Biovore still brings decent move blocking capability).

I think Dermic might well be better placed on a Tfex so that you can play aggressive with one and cagey with the second. The change makes you less reliant on Warp Shielding for aggressive play. If doing that, I would swap the HVC for STC on the Harpy to keep it cheap. You can still pump STC to S9 in Kronos, so you lose a little less from swapping compared to other fleets. If you encounter a list where it might die T1, just strat reserve it.

[No One]

piersonsmuppet said:

Did you get a lot of use out of the Biovores? I would think dropping 2 Biovores to have 6 Pyros in the Tcyte would be better (1 Biovore still brings decent move blocking capability).

Did you miss the paragraph complaining about them struggling going 2nd . They did end up doing 5 MWs to Swarmy, but that was basically just coincidence that he had no guns nearby/in LoS that weren't in combat.

I don't think increasing the pyro pod is a good idea: I was running a 2x3 pod before, and it was just too unwieldy. Struggled to find places I could put it, struggled to get range (less an issue with Kronos, but still), struggled to get LoS, and it's gone up 70 pts. While I think a 3 man does the same thing of burning a squishy squad if exposed, forcing my opponent to do something about them, and then wandering my t-cyte onto a point. Miss being able to put some more in there, especially in some match ups, but I think those are more uncommon than the ones were I'm trying to burn through AoC+cover, and improving my options elsewhere is more important.

Also not sure if 1 bio does enough, move-block wise, especially for what I want, but to be experimented with: definitely seems like it could, but especially at d3 I'd prefer 2: and at that point, 'why not 3' was essentially my reasoning when putting the list together. And before you say 2 pyros in the pod, I wanted the option of the single on my home objective for banners, and a single in the pod worsens my grind options: still possibly very worth, but since this was half to test bios, thought I'd give them the best chance to show their stuff. So far underwhelming.

I think Dermic might well be better placed on a Tfex so that you can play aggressive with one and cagey with the second. The change makes you less reliant on Warp Shielding for aggressive play. If doing that, I would swap the HVC for STC on the Harpy to keep it cheap. You can still pump STC to S9 in Kronos, so you lose a little less from swapping compared to other fleets. If you encounter a list where it might die T1, just strat reserve it.

Eh, if I have to play cagey with my acid obsec t-fex, I don't think it's worth bringing and my list doesn't really work: which, you know, maybe it doesn't, but I don't really want to change up anything just yet and I'm going to give it a solid shot. Also, most of the reason the harpy's in the list is because HVC gives me an answer to -1 D, especially on higher T platforms like e.g. knights. With a side of Ap-2 is sad into AoC. And if I'm not getting value from the spores/mobility to get angles/moveblock if I want because I'm playing cagey without the 4++, is a harpy platform worth? Because do I want 2 SCs for 200 pts? Not really. Especially considering no obscuring, and strat-reserve means I start at 0, a position I don't want to be in. Also delays doing anything and probably still just dies the turn it comes in if I can't protect it T1.

[Master Chief]

If AoC is the problem the best ranged answers are Exocrine and the Zoas.

Specially if you're playing Leviathan.

[No One]

Current list's been doing decently well by me (https://controlc.com/9f0eb505), but sometimes suffers from a lack of ability to be proactive. Since I'm expecting Votann to really punish the playstyle with the t-fexes (which generally boils down to 'get shot first while on an objective then retaliate'), thinking about changing things up a bit. Did think about going Kraken (or doing something with terv+terms), but nothing's really clicked and ER reversal hurts. Ultimately I can struggle with playing, so don't think I should change things up too much, especially to something fiddly like terv+terms. So sticking with the lurk MCs idea for the moment.

So far, two general thoughts:
- Drop the t-fexes entirely for double carnis. Lose out on survivability and are only single models for obsec, which sucks, but saves me 110 pts and are much more able to hide->move out and have range/LoS on T1. Pts could get me a 4th pyro to increase pod lethality and maybe a lictor for being annoying on objectives/for LoS and early banners.
- Drop a t-fex entirely, swap the other to a rupture fex. Much more range to be able to play around hide->get LoS T1, but that means limited ability to play on objectives. Still an option for games where I'm not scared of being blasted off T1, and for games that's likely either be dead or can dawdle onto objectives to secure for T3+ sort of thing. 190 pts for...? Probs the same as previous+horm unit or something, though would like to get synapse on the pod.

Dropping the acid fexes does put me in the odd position of not having a whole heap that benefits from being Kronos. Basically the pyros, and that's it. Could drop them, but then I lose a lot of proactive lethality, and obsec t-cyte is surprisingly effective, so not a fan. Pyros do get a fair bit out of it, and +4" on HVCs is never bad, but still basically for 160 pts.

Alternatives...Behemoth is interesting, but since basically all of my combat oomph is the tyrants, who don't really need the help, doesn't seem to do too much. Could take and go a bit further in on horms or something, and power option is solid on the fexes (and +1 S for specifically T7), but not sold. Jorm is basically only useful for strat, Gorgon even less helpful. Customs even seem like they could be an option for how little I care about most of the extras of the main fleets, but most are pretty mediocre. +1" charge or ignore mods could be nice, or try and do something with pre-game move?



Could look something like:
== Kronos ((Lurk) Territorial Instincts) Patrol Detachment == -2 CP, 1135 pts, 58 PL

No Force Org Slot:
- Tyrant Guard: 3xTyrant Guard (Scything) [120 pts, 8 PL]
- Zoanthropes: Power: Neuroparasite, 3xZoanthrope [150 pts, 7 PL]

HQ1: Neurothrope: Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught, Relic: Resonance Barb (Power: Paroxysm) [100 pts, 5 PL]
HQ2: Winged Hive Tyrant: Adrenal Glands, Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: The Horror, Relic: The Reaper of Obilterax, Toxin Sacs [230 pts, 11 PL]

TR1: Tyranid Warriors: 3xTyranid Warrior (Deathspitter, Dual Boneswords) [90 pts, 4 PL]

EL1: Lictor [70 pts, 4 PL]
EL2: Venomthropes: 3xVenomthrope [105 pts, 5 PL]

HS1: Carnifexes: Carnifex (Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Two Carnifex Scything Talons) [135 pts, 7 PL]
HS2: Carnifexes: Carnifex (Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Two Carnifex Scything Talons) [135 pts, 7 PL]

== Kronos ((Lurk) Territorial Instincts) Patrol Detachment == 0 CP, 865 pts, 45 PL

Stratagems:
- Rarefied Enhancements (-2 CP)

HQ1: Hive Tyrant: Heavy Venom Cannon, Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword, Power: Catalyst, Power: Paroxysm, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Adaptive Biology [195 pts, 9 PL, -1 CP]

TR1: Hormagaunts: 10xHormagaunt [80 pts, 4 PL]

EL1: Pyrovores: 3xPyrovore [120 pts, 6 PL]
EL2: Pyrovores: Pyrovore [40 pts, 2 PL]

HS1: Biovores: 2xBiovore [90 pts, 6 PL]

FL1: Harpy: Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis, 2xHeavy Venom Cannon [230 pts, 11 PL]

DT1: Tyrannocyte: 5xDeathspitter [110 pts, 7 PL]



Also fiddled with neuro loadout a bit (parox seems something I really want with daemon flamer spam). With the HVCs, harpy going to SC is an option that seems OK, but I'm not seeing anything amazing I'd spend the extra 30 pts on. Synapse on the t-cyte would be nice, and...maybe AG on t-guard, sacs on the walkrant for the last 5 pts or something? Seems OK, but not sure if it's better than just running the HVC still. Could cut some more stuff as well, for...another fex? Don't want to go too many though, the advantage to them is the can actually hide and be able to move somewhere useful afterwards, which sort of defeats the purpose if I've got too many, and not sold on them for scoring/output/durability either.

[No One]

Been running 'cepter spam, with...middling success (2-3, but losses were very close): pastebin.com/qDcaeHas.

But, early thoughts:
- The 4++ have generally been quite durable, which is good, and the 'cepters/walkrant seem to work well. Dermic exo seems...fine. Slow and can struggle to get angles, and output can be a tad inconsistent, but don't think I've exactly got better options and as long as it's not tagged so far been generally solid, and can absolutely just pick up marines if given the opportunity.
- Warp ritual is a solid secondary: even against armies that have counter-psychic, or bad maps for it (where it's hard or I don't want to be on the centre), still a decent 7 for minimal effort (or while drawing a lot of effort from the opponent), and otherwise it's basically guaranteed 12.
- Banners and a 3rd is a bit more dicey: banners is usually at least fine, but 3rd basically always has to be a kill, which usually requires basically tabling to score well on. But the good news is I seem to be able to do that reasonably well, it's been securing scoring through early pressure/bodyblocks that's been an issue.

Strat reserves exo...I think just needs to be a t-fex. Super vunerable to being tagged, since usually needs to be very aggressive on the flanks to get angles, at which point the shorter range of the t-fex isn't really an issue, and then I've got something that's more durable and way happier being close and tangling in combat.

What hasn't worked:
- Mawloc's...not good. Can perform in ideal circumstances (show up on an objective that's not easily defended, steal it and keep it stolen), but that's very niche: basically both mission and match up dependant. Otherwise it's just basically giving VP on secondaries, for maybe VP swing on primary. Not worth 125 pts.
- Jorm has been 99% useless. I think I've got dense twice: always either too close, or already a neg from somewhere. I never expected it to do much, but underperformed even from my minimal (basically useful T1 going 2nd) expectations.

So, swapping mawloc for stealers: gives me something to mitigate going 2nd pressure (screening against forward deploy, bodyblocks, DS etc), and early objective pressure going 1st with banners or charges. Gives me 80 pts (have to drop a pyro 'cause no more elite slots), and with stealers Behemoth seems the play over Jorm, so horms for 80 pts seems a good fit.


== (Lurk) Territorial Instincts (Behemoth) Arks of Omen == 0 CP, 2000 pts, 94 PL, 1 CP

Stratagems:
- Rarefied Enhancements (-2 CP)
- Hive Predator (-1 CP)
- Heroic Support (-1 CP)

No Force Org Slot:
- Tyrant Guard: 3xTyrant Guard (Scything) [135 pts, 8 PL]

HQ1: Hive Tyrant: Heavy Venom Cannon, Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword, Power: Onslaught, Power: Paroxysm, Relic: Shardgullet, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Adaptive Biology [195 pts, 9 PL, -1 CP]
HQ2: Hive Tyrant: Heavy Venom Cannon, Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword, Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror, Relic: Pathogenesis, Toxin Sacs [200 pts, 9 PL]
HQ3: Neurothrope: Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught, Warlord Trait: Synaptic Tendrils [110 pts, 5 PL]

TR1: Hormagaunts: 10xHormagaunt [80 pts, 4 PL]

EL1: Genestealers: Acid Maw, Flesh Hooks, 5xGenestealer [80 pts, 5 PL]
EL2: Lictor [70 pts, 4 PL]
EL3: Maleceptor: Power: Neuroparasite, Power: Psychic Scream [220 pts, 9 PL]
EL4: Maleceptor: Power: Neuroparasite, Power: Paroxysm [220 pts, 9 PL]
EL5: Maleceptor: Power: Paroxysm, Power: Psychic Scream [220 pts, 9 PL]
EL6: Pyrovores: Pyrovore [40 pts, 2 PL]

HS1: Exocrine: Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis [225 pts, 11 PL]
HS2: Tyrannofex: Acid Spray [205 pts, 10 PL]

[piersonsmuppet]

Why not Dermic on the Tfex? Tabling doesn't matter too much, so it makes much better use on surviving on a few wounds (especially since it'll be contesting objectives more often).

What about a 2nd GS unit instead of the Horms? Horms are pretty weak w/o SL, and I don't think Behemoth TI needs the reach to disrupt primary with the amount of T8/4++ you have. Honestly, maybe even drop the lictor/pyro for another GS unit and voracious on the Exo/Tfex (whichever doesn't have Dermic); unless you use the lictor for BEL (less good after dropping the Mawloc).

I like the ceptor spam, but do you get enough MWs with only 2 Warp Siphons?

[No One]

piersonsmuppet said:

Why not Dermic on the Tfex? Tabling doesn't matter too much, so it makes much better use on surviving on a few wounds (especially since it'll be contesting objectives more often).

It's a consideration, but I want every MC on board to have a 4++, and I want the exo on board more than the t-fex. Also based on experience t-fex not bracketing is if anything a pro for not having dermic: I'm not sure anyone's even shot my dermic exo yet, the 'cepters are more of a threat and easier to shoot, so they get shot. Or the no invul MC if it's accessible.

I usually can actually deploy the exo in safety, and then it's getting long range shots on limited angles while the 'cepters are far more exposed, so it's possible I could keep the exo safe. But then if it's a long range shoot out, or mobile T1 damage *cough* IH/RW, I want the 4++ on board to not give an early easy kill. Versus the t-fex, which...on the one hand, would have to be in an aggressive position for range/LoS. On the other, strat reserves often lets me just put them on a collapsing flank where it'll end up moderately safe.

What about a 2nd GS unit instead of the Horms? Horms are pretty weak w/o SL, and I don't think Behemoth TI needs the reach to disrupt primary with the amount of T8/4++ you have. Honestly, maybe even drop the lictor/pyro for another GS unit and voracious on the Exo/Tfex (whichever doesn't have Dermic); unless you use the lictor for BEL (less good after dropping the Mawloc).

So, a few things here: my MCs on objectives are plenty of primary pressure. They can struggle to get to objectives, need to move up, and of course can't do secondaries. So that's where all my other guys come in: pyro for homefield, stealers/horms/lictor for mobility on midfield banners, horms/stealers for counter-bodyblocks and more aggressive primary pressure (and should be OK-good damage with Behemoth), and lictor untargetable can be disgusting jank for either objective holding, or protecting the tyrants.

Horms for stealers could be an option though, yeah: would require me to take a bio instead of pyro as I run out of elite slots, and I'm not sure if the stealers would have diminishing returns vs having mobile and not-harmless obsec melee. But ultimately I'm wanting them to do similar things, so just not sure how the pros/cons play out.

BEL was something I was thinking, but on playing it out and thinking on it some more, it just seems really bad without leaning into it much harder. My only reliable score is mawloc (which isn't even reliable into guard/SM due to 12" DS denial), strat reserved pyro or bounced lictor could get me some points. But that's effort and taking away from other secondaries, for what's realistically just a 6-9.

I like the ceptor spam, but do you get enough MWs with only 2 Warp Siphons?

Absolutely. I think I'm 15-20 average when I'm not killing things out of range? I really need to actually count them out some time, but last game 2 'cepters+neuro did IIRC 15 unsaved MWs to GK, so pretty good showing there. The other 'cepter was bottom bracket, so did basically nothing other other than successfully cast the action, but I didn't need him to do anything else.

And that's really the go with 3: defensive profile saturation. T8 4++ with -1 S shooting is painful for a lot of armies, and if I can get them in range and on objectives, things generally die very fast, even with just 2 being effective MW engines.

[piersonsmuppet]

What about dropping the Exo and running 2x Tfex? Between 3x Mal and the Tyrant guns you’ve got plenty of options for normal Exo targets and no longer have to worry about the Exo being tagged.