No One's 9th Ed Lists

[No One]

zimko said:

There's only very few situations where the relic bonswords will shine... and in almost all those situations, a kill can be accomplished with the proper application of genestealers.

Flyers (this isn't specifically a 'relic boneswords' thing mind, but I think is a compelling reason to run flyrants, and relic boneswords make them a better generalist/problem solver). Also small footprint higher move with Fly is great for getting to hanging Chars. But yeah, for raw damage supported stealers win against...I'm going to say basically everything (might be actually everything tbh: even servant GMDK, full buffed stealers win I think), but with no/less support I think flyrant's about the same into the juicy targets.

beetlejuice said:

dont they still have 1+ armor saves? So murderous size boneswords still only takes them to 4+?

BGV are just 3+ with +1 to save. You're still only taking them to a 5+ though, yes.

[zimko]

Ya a flyrant is a good tool, and if the -1 to wound relic didn't exist then I'd for sure use the ignore invul boneswords. But the -1 to wound relic does exist and it's hard to pass up just how resilient a flyrant can be with one. If he's charging an aircraft, it's because those aircraft already had a turn to move. So he's gotta survive whatever they can dish out.

[kazetanade]

I think the main diff is just whether you run it with a damage adaptation or not. Being able to kill a Flier with 3 failed saves instead of 4 is a big deal when you've only 5A - even more so if you only have 4A.

The -1 to wound relic does honestly seem pretty good. Orks have T7 W9 chassis with -1 to wound, with -1D, 5++ 5+++ as a possible setup and its pretty damn nuts. We can't recreate exactly, but I guess we get decently close. But by my reckoning that buys us 2 turns of attention max anyway, and they can be hidden so they're usually safe enough to not need -1 to wound to get their job done.

[No One]

zimko said:

Ya a flyrant is a good tool, and if the -1 to wound relic didn't exist then I'd for sure use the ignore invul boneswords. But the -1 to wound relic does exist and it's hard to pass up just how resilient a flyrant can be with one.

I dunno, I find flyrant's often end up either dying horribly (where I'd expect this to require more commitment to kill, but still end up dead, and since basically the entire army wants to hide, that extra commitment will potentially not matter), or live because the army's gutted/they're out of danger with overrun or whatever. -1 to wound is quite a good defensive boost on T7 4++ though: might depend on if the rest of the army can handle DE? Because that's the army I'm probably most concerned about (then GK, Orks, AdMech probably in that order: not because of power, combination power and meta dominance. Of course SM/DG are something I want to be able to handle as well, but I think both are options are good there and aren't super concerned about those match ups.) -1 to wound feels like a 'still dies to murder Chars' option, and ignores invuls/free fight on death are quite good into those.

If he's charging an aircraft, it's because those aircraft already had a turn to move.

I mean, min 32" move that can start on the line directly across: I think it'd depend entirely on the ability to screen, which...well, tbh I doubt most people would bother to screen fliers in their backline  .

kazetanade said:

Being able to kill a Flier with 3 failed saves instead of 4 is a big deal when you've only 5A - even more so if you only have 4A.

Oh no, without size you basically just can't kill fliers. You go down to D2, because ramshackle/chaff launchers. S7 D3 still isn't amazing, which is where I'm still a bit 'SoT still has a place if you hate Orks' (S8 does help into a lot of the other duty units, but not the main thing). But you're still very likely to kill outside doctrina (~70% with boneswords with voracious and exploding 6s, assuming you get a toxin proc or some other single wound on admech fliers anyway: scy tals brings this up for AdMech, but Orks have 5++ access and you only miss the rr 1s, so I don't think there'd be much change there).

[No One]

First game with the new rules...3rd game request, all for mirror matches, hmm...anti nid tech might be worth thinking about. Same HG+Swarmlord+bells and whistles. He was running min horms, 5 man zoan and dima.

Anyway, he went first, killed some HG and devilgants with dima. Stealers did work into dima, flyrant murdered some HG. He chunked most of the flyrant with HG, flyrant then murdered zoans, and died on his next turn. Warriors pushed his flank that the flyrant had run up well, finishing off the hive guard. Stealers and other warriors went and bothered Swarmlord: bracketed easily, but then just died (I wasn't expecting a kill, just delay while doing damage, but I didn't end up able to capitalise much). Both of us scored high on primary (6 objective hold 1/2), he took to the last (one HG lived with 4 guys), I took stranglehold instead of engage, underestimating how hard it would be to push off the other objectives, even just with the limited amount of obsec. Ended up being a really close game, we talked out the last turn and a bit, probably would've been ~~75-73 to him (I maybe could've denied a primary/got hold more/an extra strangle, or maybe not: I didn't have a great deal left).

What worked:
- Super flyrant, murdered 3 HG and 5 zoans
- Stealers: 15 wounds off a 5+++ dima when only 11 made combat? Not bad (full rrs and prime link).
- HG...ish. Worked great for him with basically the same set up, because 1st. But even mine did pretty solidly: couldn't strike back effectively at his HG, but the consistency was great, even just for a 2 man just killing off 4 horms for easy clean up of the unit. I could maybe have played them better to not get shot T1, but I'm not sure that would've been worth: redeploy mirror is weird.
- Swarmlord: duh
- Warriors, mostly: as I said, one just folded up the left flank mostly just on their own merit, and a bit of help from prime link. The fact it's a link really helped here, definitely felt that flexibility. Didn't fare too well on Swarmlord, but there was a bit of a highroll (super smite into a 6: to be fair, I also did that against the zoans: but those zoans were facing down the ignores invul super flyrant, so...), and I wasn't really expecting great things, just delay and obsec, which they did OK at.
- Links: really felt the damage from the prime buff, and the warrior ones were good for consistency. Generally easy to put where I wanted too, which was nice, but might be different on DoW (vs HaA)
- RRs trait, though it suffered from 9", was still very strong when I could use it well. I did feel the anti-synergy between this and the warrior link, but considering how flexible the warrior link generally is, it wasn't terrible

Less so:
- Gargs, though I think this was just me mis-deploying them: I can definitely see potential for when Swarmy's doing something else, and the Fly was very nice
- Devilgants: suffered from LoS issues and mostly ended up as a giant screen

Other things:
5+ CP regen got back...I think 2 or 3 CP for both of us. Definitely paid for itself, but wasn't any amazing font of CP or anything.
Redeploy feels super powerful, but also like it might be really hard to get full use out of. But that might just be the weirdness of a LoS and redeploy mirror.

[zimko]

The mirror match is one reason I want 2 units of Hive Guard instead of Hive Guard + defensive units. If your opponent only has 1 HG unit then you can just brute force it down with your own Hive Guard, sacrificing 1 unit to line up shots with the other.

[kazetanade]

Oct 23, 2021 15:14:59 GMT zimko said:

The mirror match is one reason I want 2 units of Hive Guard instead of Hive Guard + defensive units. If your opponent only has 1 HG unit then you can just brute force it down with your own Hive Guard, sacrificing 1 unit to line up shots with the other.

Then you eat -1 to hit and the ER adaptation, and the HG trade off isnt working out well. My last experience in that mirror matchup was that trying to get the Alpha-strike off HG to HG actually drains your resources immensely and isnt quite worth it. During this trade I actually think taking out the opposing SL would have been the better play. 

By the by, I tested my aggressive list today instead of my defensive one (didnt have the models in the store, didnt get to go home and pick up the missing models). Genestealers traded up 300+ points for the first time today, for me. So let's talk Genestealers.

16 Genestealers runs you something like 64A; hitting on a 3+, exploding 6s and auto wound on 6s. 

From base, that's 10 auto wounds; and 20 more hits. 54A rerolled.

Another 9 auto wounds; 18 more hits. 45 divided between 5, 18 misses means 27 hits. So total, we've got 27+20+18 = 65 hits and 19 wounds so far. 

T4 - 65 hits, 32.5 wounds. 11 rends and 21.5 + 19 = 40.5 saves. Assuming a standard 3+sv, that's 20 failed saves for a total of 31 damage.

T5 - 65 hits, 21.7 or something close. Again nearly 11 rends, and 11 + 19 = 30 saves. 15 failed saves for a total of 26 damage. 

T8 - 65 hits, 10.9 wounds or something. So, 11 rends and 19 saves. 10 failed saves for 21 damage. 


With stats like these, we dont need double HG units to output. The 2cp for exploding hits seems good value, incredibly so, when used on a GS brood getting slung up the table. Invuls changes the maths up quite a bit (as will having 20 instead of 16), but basically with 2cp and the main combat buffs, Genestealers are an extremely effective missile unit that can trade pt for pt, if not upwards; doesnt matter what they're getting thrown into, they're almost certain to get close to a kill, if not a kill straight out. 

What performed poorly were the devilgants - starting them on the board not on Kraken is extremely difficult to get value out of, for the same reason that non-kraken Hormagants cant do the same job as they should. I think this is a unit that has to be deepstruck in - which means having 2 units of Devgants, 1 starting on the board for reactive shooting and 1 in deepstrike for offensive positioning, is really good idea. 

Warrior output is... lacklustre as expected. They'll half chunk units that pop out to hold objectives, which is as good as we can ask for honestly I guess. But they really lack the damage in melee, and even with exploding hits and auto wounds, I didnt feel the damage really pouring in. If they could at least get S5, for the 3+ to wound, they may be an output contender. 

[zimko]

Yeah I'm leaning towards 2 units of 16 genestealers in my offensive list. For the hive guard discussion, most people aren't running ER on HG anymore. Ork LOS ignoring shots are AP 3 (thanks to their new waaagh), and the rest of the field is barely running LOS ignoring shooting anymore. Now that we only get 1 adaptation (assuming you're taking two warlord traits) it seems like ER on warriors or Murderous Size on Flyrant is more value. With that in mind, HG trade into HG fine.

[No One]

2nd game, also the mirror...I went first, won the redeploy roll off, put flyrant on the line (and moved another HG squad up to get range on one of his HG squads while being in dense, but also stuffed it up and only 4/6 had range: still killed 2 though). Devilgants on the line advanced up, killed ~50 gaunts (he was bringing carpet+terv+double HG), slung flyrant to one of his HG squads hiding in the back and killed it. He conceded having lost a solid chunk of his army, and most of what could meaningfully interact with me: he had 20 devilgants in reserve still, but only 4 HG and an exo for this turn, which wouldn't meaningfully impact the devilgants and then he loses all his scoring.

So...yeah, I think flyrant still has a place . Does feel a bit like a 'punish poor play' piece, but it's a very good punish, and I think even just forcing your opponent to play around that much move with Fly has value, and if they don't/can't... Maybe not as good into esp DE, but ignores invuls and fight on death is still nice there, so...? RR+tesla devilgants are fun: even on 5s still got something like 90 hits: do seem like they'll be awkward to use, but I think WLT helps a lot with it. I'm not sure about 2 units, though it's possible committing 1 CP to put 1 in strat reserve, and then the other pulled with WLT: losing out on any options for redeploying other units feels like a bad idea. Not much to say about the rest...

[No One]

Had a couple of games with this list (https://pastebin.com/Bfa4B5Qz). So far so good:

Game 1 TS (basically time cult, 2 termi bricks, 3 rhubric blobs): he went 1st, dropped flyrant to 1 wound with a single termi brick (even with mal aura), moved up a rhino rhubric squad. Stealers went in with rerolls+tesla, killed a scarab blob. Hive guard killed some from the other flank termi brick (not buff stacked).

T2: He crystalled the injured termi brick up on one flank (list issue so he didn't go T1), killed Swarmy, other termi brick stayed back to kill the stealers. Made his DS charge with a regen, but couldn't get past the gaunt screen with just consolidate, so all good there. Then my turn: Hive guard+devilgants killed the injured termis, other chipped away at rhino rhubric squad.

T3: Tagged my hive guard with double move for the rhubrics. I responded by murdering them. T4 and 5 was pretty boring, just getting secondaries really: he was too far back to do anything with the remaining squads, so just stayed back to try and prevent no prisoners points. 87-58

Game 2: GK, 5 dreadknights and 30 interceptors. I got 1st, killed some interceptors with HG, killed both GMDKs with flyrant: explodes, rrs, double fight (and a bit of hot rolling). She considered conceding there, but did end up playing out a few turns. But not much more happened: killed flyrant and was able to tag a HG squad with a DS charge, but mopped up all bar the DS interceptor squad and backline (strikes+NDKs) on my T2 and the NDKs weren't able to do much more in response, so called it bottom of T2. 85-13

Also did some testing against myself playing DE (which I don't exactly feel comfortable playing), and (aside some targeting priority issues), seems not terrible. Devilgants are really good for...basically anything (also nice if you can start them on board to threaten sightlines), stealers great for mop up once the boats are popped, HG can pop boats. The only issue was range/getting through boats+cronos in time, but with the pts hikes on those I doubt that'd be a huge issue now. Talos+cronos yes, but also stealers+devilgants are reasonably good there still (provided devilgants can get max buffed), so...might depend how things shake out with that, but it doesn't feel like a terrible situation.


So far, looking pretty good: still not sold on the flyrant (over -1 wound or in general), but game 2 was quite a good sales pitch XD . Also usually horribly murdered a DE char in test games, once with fight on death, but I wouldn't be surprised if those were avoidable with better play with DE, and was still a bit inconsistent. With the Orks nerf in particular, probably going to drop the mal (may keep it for the mirror, but don't think it does enough there) for a prime. Wouldn't have helped so far, but would be good into DE covens builds and NDKs (though would of course prefer to go after the intercepters). But it also saves me 60 pts, which would be nice for something to push forward screening/disposable for midfield objectives: thinking possibly gargs to also give more options with screening. So far actually really liking the skyslashers: 12" move and Fly is really good for getting onto midfield objectives in awkward spots to remove. Obsec flex hasn't come up yet, but it's still a neat option to have. Extras on the warriors have been...fine.

(Also tried out the flyrant link because I had spare points and nothing I felt I really wanted, and...it's not garbage, but usually not very useful. Sometimes let me get all the stealers in comfortably, or if I went for a devilgant charge to be as obnoxious as possible, but alternatively flyrant went in first and it's useless, or just a 'nice to have' thing. So...yeah: obviously not worth 15 pts, but even as a 'spare pts' thing with no link competition I'm incredibly hesitant to say it's a consideration).

[No One]

Have been tinkering with variants of the previous list (taking out a HG and adding GSC mostly: scout sents seem nice), but haven't tested or anything.

So instead, rampant theorycrafting of fun new toys go! I'm of two minds as to how much I want to go in on certain things, because I play exclusively on TTS at the moment. But also don't have FW for whenever I get back to IRL play, so...I've sort of split the difference a bit, but I don't think in a necessarily bad way. Anyway:

Leviathan Battalion:
HQ: Flyrant. Double scy tal /w size. Toxin, adrenal 215
Warlord: Adaptive biology
Alpha leader beast: adapt
Biomorphic carapace
Powers: +D3, catalyst
HQ: Flyrant. Bonesword /w ignores invul and size, lash whip & bonesword. Toxin, adrenal 225
Powers: RR hits, parox
HQ: Swarmlord 240
Powers: Onslaught, 4++

Troops:
3 warriors: 2 scy tals, bioweapon bond 66
3 warriors: 2 scy tals, bioweapon bond 66
3 warriors: 2 scy tals, bioweapon bond 66

Elites:
6 hive guard 270
Lictor 37
Lictor 37

FA:
Dimachaeron 255

HS:
Exocrine 170

Flyer:
Harpy, venom cannons 165
Harpy, venom cannons 165


So, a couple of things could definitely be tweaked: for IRL would have to drop the dima for...trygon or t-fex is probably it (so might just go with other lists for IRL play: I feel those are much improved, but not to they're the point of being good), harpy for...possibly a mawloc. I think with obsec strat and 12 wounds, harpy has a fair bit of potential play as an objective snagger, and also just jump on something for 6 MWs for 1 CP. And then it's actually not trivial to remove with 5++ and -1 D. Similar idea with mawloc, but without access to easy obsec I don't think it's that great. Now, is 1 enough for this? Maybe.

Exo to just try and force sightlines: I think there's enough durability there I can just plonk in reasonable spots and force the opponent to actually play around sightlines. Is the output there without Kronos? Maybe not.

HG always good, now get a 5++ at the expense of basically no screening or support, woo.

Then dima/double flyrants bully and damage, with Swarmy for support. There's actually some durability there now with -1 D, but it's more a 'force more effort to remove' thing most of the time, though loading a dima up with 4++/5+++ before sending in sounds like a pain. Stacked flyrant should be basically impossible to kill without mortals or absurd commitment (hopefully), can go around killing/annoying things and obsec as needed. Ignores invuls is the troubleshooter: lack of attacks is now less of an issue, and there's also rrs access now, so can actually start going after GMDKs with reasonable reliability.

Then warriors to exist and lictors for secondaries. Thoughts? Main thing I guess for TTS would be to lean into FW, drop a harpy and exo for a barbed or dima, and would also let me pick up some more warriors.

[kazetanade]

Speaking from experience, the Barbed has been my star player in every Nids test game since Leviathan dropped, even in the games I lost. I funked his rules a little the first time and gave him more A and more M than he should have had, but otherwise he's always done great just by shooting, and failure to secure have been my failures or undercommit.

A note - you cant carry both PotHM and MC spells on the same psyker. Gotta be all from the same tree.

Dimachaeron I'm seriously on the fence about - he slides into a normal Leviathan list better than he does an AoR, because of the overlapping buffs for one. Giving him a -1D does complete his defensive profile pretty good with 5++, 5+++, -1D. 4++/5+++/-1D feels even better of course. The buffs also do help him just as much as any other melee monster. I take a bit of offense at his points cost - 255 for a Dima vs 235 for a Scythed, who has the same melee profile (but doesnt do unreliable MWs after fight that is required to procc his innate 5+++), has a gun to shoot with, and is the crucial T8 for better durability, and the same movement (but doesnt ignore terrain, which is slightly less of a problem if you have a gun you can use). He's definitely still good IMO, but I'm less sure about his position in an AoR where we can basically get a turbo-charged Flyrant to do pretty much the same job at better movement and cheaper points cost, and where his defensive/resource saving advantages over the Scythed Heirodule are not present/irrelevant (the 5++ saves Dermic, innate reroll hits).

Mind, from memory TTS boards are pretty chonky on terrain and that's a major consideration - in my games, Scythed and Killrigs generally get to run around doing whatever they please, and my Barbed has never been really denied sightlines before, other than directly behind huge obscuring ruin in deployment zone.

EOAF/ROD combination on Lictor makes it worthwhile - that's a 5vp swing he helps contribute towards. just ROD is ok as well at 4vp. If it's just Engage, waste of time (which means when the update on Secondaries hit, Lictors go to shelf unless you desperately need an OW blocker).

Exocrene without rerolls isnt going to be terribad, but it wont feel good. Just keep that in mind that the Exocrene is going to underperform compared to what we're used to him getting done - it's really just complimentary damage, and you need a forward source of damage.

[purestrain]

Would Pyrovore in 3 packs make for crazy tough midfield contenders? or backfield? no one wants to fight a 3 flamers at t4/4+/5++ that deal mortals when they are injured or killed in melee (or pretty close)?

[No One]

Had a game with (basically: some tweaks like fixing the aforementioned powers issue) the list, vs DE.

-1 to wound was great, tanked so much: additional -1 D did nothing though, thinking about swapping to perfectly adapted or gestalt commander for more flexibility, +D3 A for just raw damage. Or adaptive strategy, I really felt the restriction in deployment, but I'm not sure if it's consistently good/good enough. Ignores invul flyrant killed an archon and Drazhar and then was a pain to remove. Harpies made great objective botherers T2 that required reasonable resource commitment to remove: didn't do anything amazing, but I felt it was more my misplays rather than the unit being bad in this context. Exo shot a raider/ravager T1/2 and burnt a bunch of CP for not much and HG were OK but not great, ditto dima (though was possibly a misplay on my part). Lost, but was a close game: he just managed to chip things out just enough to get a win T4/5. Considering this was anti-thiccari (bunch of wracks i.e. poisoned D1, wyches/helions with +1 to wound against MCs), not too shabby. Though I did go 1st and was able to set up midfield uncontested, which did help.

kazetanade said:

Mind, from memory TTS boards are pretty chonky on terrain and that's a major consideration - in my games, Scythed and Killrigs generally get to run around doing whatever they please, and my Barbed has never been really denied sightlines before, other than directly behind huge obscuring ruin in deployment zone.

Yep, dima had to jump 3 ruins (could've got away with 1, but would've been running through difficult), and exo had a narrow sightline and basically only got to shoot twice (also shot a 5 man wyche squad and could've shot a unit of kabalites if I didn't need my warriors to make the charge: both where moved with no strat though). Barbed would've been almost strictly worse than the exo though: well unless I used very differently and just ran down mid, which with 8" move...may have been able to get somewhere T3? Maybe? But I'd also have needed something to hold the objective the exo was on: could've maybe stuck a warrior squad on there, but then I'd have had nothing screening behind my HG. And 100 pts more.

EOAF/ROD combination on Lictor makes it worthwhile - that's a 5vp swing he helps contribute towards. just ROD is ok as well at 4vp. If it's just Engage, waste of time (which means when the update on Secondaries hit, Lictors go to shelf unless you desperately need an OW blocker).

Yeah it's RoD, engage if strangle doesn't work. Lictors only as a maybe for devilgant bomb in a different list post secondary changes, but that's a later thing.

Exocrene without rerolls isnt going to be terribad, but it wont feel good. Just keep that in mind that the Exocrene is going to underperform compared to what we're used to him getting done - it's really just complimentary damage, and you need a forward source of damage.

Yeah, knew that exo was going to be lacking without the...anything. Wanted something for sightlines, and was nice to have something to stick on a back-mid objective. But also TTS sightlines suck for 6" move that doesn't want to move, and there's not always good midfield objectives an exo could actually move onto. So...dunno. Exo's definitely on the 'could cut' list: thinking about ravs, secure up my RoD (only got 3/4), and also give some weight of attacks for hordes, which feels like a big problem. With the 5++ they're and transhuman access they're not going to fold to a light breeze (stiff breeze, maybe ). But I'd need a replacement MC as well, and I'm really not sure what I could do about it: genuinely thinking about t-cyte as a 95 pt MC body that also gets a little bit of anti-infantry shooting...Otherwise? Could grab a tox (but terrain) if a pared down the warriors, or a fex I guess? Also thought about sporocyst, but no ability to hold objectives and I've got no idea if it's even deployable in a reasonable fashion: and then it just gets free charged and killed probably.

Also maybe think about dropping a HG: don't have the full level of support and not sure I'll be double tapping much, but still generally going to be worth, felt like a bit of an odd situation this game, so only if some amazing option comes up.

[tomb]

Thanks for the game report.

Since your write up have you thought more about Ravenours? At 4-5 man will they become our best utility secondary unit?

Also I'm surprised to hear your thinking of a tcyte, I'm interested in them too. I think with the right contents they could be useful (or at least have a game or two off the shelf). Maybe give another deployment option. Single or three Pyrovore? Warrior caddy? 

Sporeocysts could be used to bait for counter assault. Can we blow them up now too?

cheers!