No One's 9th Ed Lists

[No One]

Been giving (probably too much...) thought to things, so rambles. I'm not sold on the idea of going in on defensive options: I think it's definitely viable, but (especially since BL does nothing going 2nd) I don't think it does enough and/or you're investing too much to give up on damage/board control. Could definitely work, especially with obsec strat helping out, but I think murdering your opponent's everything is better . Also I don't own a 'cepter or any FW MCs, so...yeah.

I think you pretty much start with a unit of hive guard, devilgants, decent stealers blob and Swarmlord. Flyrant doesn't seem a must, but considering flyers, board space and no prisoners, I think it's fairly close. I definitely prefer the bonesword relic, since that's more what a super flyrant does (i.e. murder), and it lines up well into some problematic targets. But no caveats -1 to wound is also quite good.

Once you add in the warrior links, babysitting HQ, lictors etc, comfortably room for one of:
- Extra devilgants, extra stealers, or extra HG

I think the best is double HG, since double HG firing for most of the game is basically a win con in and of itself (esp considering extra buffs), but likely terrain dependant. Extra devilgants feel like it's going to be too awkward to play: on board I don't know if they've got the threat range to go from cover into range/LoS, and double strat reserve feels a bit late and difficulty connecting (unless you use both lictors...). Also issues with space, ditto stealers, but I don't think this is a huge deal (if you can hide HG, you can probably hide devilgants or at least stealers). Stealers...could work, but I think double HG is better.
Which leaves some points spare: you can actually squeeze in double HG and double...something else, but going all in leaves you no points for screens/tech. Which (basically: I'm sure there's something else to spend ~150 pts on, but hey) leaves a small unit, or Kronos. Currently favouring stealers, because...well, the damage might be there but the primary pressure is less so. And while you drop alpha and sustain, the 2 CP saved mitigates that somewhat.

So, TL:DR list:

Leviathan Battalion
HQ Swarmlord 240
HQ Flyrant (-1 CP): Relic Bonesword, LW&BS, AG, TS, Size 225
HQ Prime (-2 CP): 5+ CP relic, double WLT: Swarm Leader, redeploy. Synaptic Link. 95
Troops 30 devilgants 210
Troops 12 stealers 156
Troops 16 stealers 208
Troops 10 Terms 50
Troops 3 warriors (link) 66
Troops 3 warriors (link) 66
Elite Hive guard 270
Elite Hive guard 270
Elite Lictor 37
Elite Lictor 37
FA 10 Gargs 70

Total: 2000, 9 CP

So far my favourite: no consistent rrs from Kronos, but hits on 2s and can usually pop exploding 6s strat if needed, and sometimes Swarm Leader can go on a unit. Double stealers means that prime feels...not terrible for the link over a neuro, who'd basically just be for trying to smite taggers off the HG. Still gets a bit of screening, though not much in the way of anything dedicated or totally disposable to hold objectives, which I think might be the biggest issue. But it's not like the warriors are necessary, and Levi warriors aren't the worse objective holders.

[zimko]

Yeah this is a decent 'Offense' build. I like that you fit the gargoyles in there, I think there's good tech with them for move blocking and stealing objectives that we used to do with kraken hormagaunts but are now too slow to do the same job.

The problem I had when trying to build a similar list is what to do about secondaries and primary. In every game I've played of 9th, having a solid brick of a unit to hold an objective that is exposed, and survive decently well from ranged attacks was key to getting 10 points on primary each turn. Unfortunately this kind of list doesn't have that. The Defensive list builds are running a brick of warriors to do this which require focused fire to remove and then you'd still have the prime with character protection. The Flyrant with -1 to wound is also solid at holding an objective that your opponent can't reach with melee but could shoot. About the only thing you have in this list that can hold an exposed objective reliably is 30 devgants.

So with that in mind... I'm thinking you should consider turning one of those warrior units into a 9 man brick that can sit on an objective and still provide their buff to HG by relaying the synapse. To fit it in, drop the 12 genestealer units. The only downside is you're already using an adaptation on the flyrant, but even without enhanced resistance, 9 warriors with 6+ fnp can still hold out from ranged weapons decently well, especially when there are more threatening targets to shoot at. In fact... you'll have enough points to give those warriors lash whip and boneswords to make them difficult to charge and to give the prime's aura something to do.

You'd have 27 points left. Downgrade 1 warrior to rending claws in the big brick and you'd be able to take a pyrovore for an extra infantry unit to perform actions. Or you could upgrade the 10 terms to more gargoyles.

[No One]

Yeah, I didn't really have a great plan for primary: what I've been mainly playing has most objectives hold able from out of LoS, but I agree that's not a great thing to bank on. Warriors definitely seem a solid thing to go in on with that. The questions is...how to split it. I don't think I've got any need for extra actioners, warriors+lictors should be plenty. So, I think it comes down to if I want a single block, and melee or not. Because, especially dropping the 2nd stealer unit, prime for link becomes less appealing: it does/can buff the warriors, but is warrior melee more important than defence? Could do broodlord, 9 man, and 5 man (no melee on either, though probably worth dropping a warrior somewhere for some lashwhips). Or keep the prime, 2 melee 5 mans and a garg or term unit?

[bestaltan]

That looks VERY similar to a build I’m now working on. The only thing I’ve changed is taking a maleceptor and more genestealers instead of the HT. That way I can have a unit of hive guard with +1 to hit and a unit with damage rerolls.

[No One]

Eh, 'cepter for link seems bad unless you're building for 'cepter. Which...this list doesn't want to get shot and I'm skeptical about CP for the strat. +1 to hit is a (basically) always useful buff. RRs damage is a usually useful buff, but not as good as +1 to hit unless you're putting full rrs on, at which point it's better, but not by an amazing margin when you consider the cost difference between a warrior squad and a 'cepter.

Something that I've just realised with just adding more warriors is that...well, no prisoners sucks. Current list is 10 pts, 13 with hive guard. Warriors give up about double the points, which means just spamming double scy tal warriors is probably not a good idea. Which leaves me thinking either 2 5 man units with lw, a min term unit, and prime (have a bit of pts left over, probably just kit out the prime or chuck AG on one of the warriors, just to make me have to keep track of which one's which ). Only +1 on no prisoners, which is pretty decent, and provides some good close range counter punch with lw+prime+link. Or broodlord+big warrior blob+small warrior blob (do have to drop a couple of lw, but oh well). This does drop NP by 1, but I don't think 1 pt on that is exactly make or break, especially since it's only 10/11 without killing HG.

Currently leaning towards the prime, since that gives an extra disposable term unit, which I think I'd be missing otherwise, and a nice bit of extra damage with both the stealers and warriors. But I suppose it'll depend on how strong BL link ends up being. I think quite good, but not if you've got no other targets, which this list will want to do a lot of the time. Also if you can warp ritual and still reach the hive guard to buff them: if so I think BL goes up in value, but I don't think that's something that'll line up often, if at all.

[kazetanade]

This is gonna be poor formatting, and I apologize -


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [110 PL, 11CP, 1,953pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Hive Fleet: Leviathan

+ Stratagems +

Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 235pts]: Adrenal Glands, Heavy Venom Cannon, Monstrous Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, Wings

The Swarmlord [14 PL, 240pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Paroxysm

Tyranid Prime [5 PL, 87pts]: Boneswords, Deathspitter, Flesh Hooks, Warlord

+ Troops +

Genestealers [16 PL, 208pts]
. 16x Genestealer: 16x Rending Claws

Genestealers [16 PL, 208pts]
. 16x Genestealer: 16x Rending Claws

Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]
. 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth

Termagants [9 PL, 210pts]
. 30x Termagant (Devourer): 30x Devourer

Termagants [9 PL, 115pts]
. 23x Termagant (Fleshborer): 23x Fleshborer

Tyranid Warriors [12 PL, 270pts]: Adrenal Glands
. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance
. Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword
. Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword
. Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword
. Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword
. Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword
. Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword
. Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Boneswords, Venom Cannon
. Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Boneswords, Venom Cannon
. Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Boneswords, Venom Cannon

+ Elites +

Hive Guard [12 PL, 270pts]
. 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon

Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]

Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]

++ Total: [110 PL, 11CP, 1,953pts] ++

Created with url=https://battlescribe.net]BattleScribe[/ur
l]

It doesn't match your 2x HG per se - but it has similar kind of output that you can leverage from midfield.

Let's be real - the Prime as a character sucks. For it to work well, you'd need to chuck a lot on it to make it good. You're bringing 90pts to get: a auto wound 6s ability, a +1 for Warriors, a 5+cp regen, and a reroll hits. You want to try and get 3 effects for more than 1 turn at least to make it worthwhile. So double melee is mandatory, and if your Warrior blob is a buffer, it is not running into the enemy for Primes buff.

So the warriors and HG serve your firebase details - the warriors also basically tank damage because they're now a threat, a buff, and also hard to remove and to ignore.

I like ignore invul and I cannot lie - but if I wasn't going to play that ACFlyrant, I think you can work out a BL and 1-2 units of Gargs, and a Pyrovore somewhere to do actions that u need, steal obj, move block, etc. The BL can take the WLT instead of extra adaptation, for the redeploy if that is your shtick.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Let's be real - the Prime as a character sucks. For it to work well, you'd need to chuck a lot on it to make it good. You're bringing 90pts to get: a auto wound 6s ability, a +1 for Warriors, a 5+cp regen, and a reroll hits. You want to try and get 3 effects for more than 1 turn at least to make it worthwhile. So double melee is mandatory, and if your Warrior blob is a buffer, it is not running into the enemy for Primes buff.

Prime as a datasheet is incredibly underwhelming, yes. The new stuff you can stick on it isn't: these can (basically: auto wounds is solid, but my list especially doesn't have much to make use of it) all go on our other Char protected HQs, so my thinking is that...well, neuro doesn't really add much, it's essentially a smite bot, since I'd probably be sticking dupe powers on Swarmy anyway for range reasons: having options with that and rr 1s isn't bad, but it's a pretty minor thing.

So I think the main consideration is BL vs prime, which either seems reasonable. BL gives defensive link, prime gives offensive link. BL has smite/power, but as above I think that's OK but not anything amazing. Both give counter charge: BL via itself, which I don't want to overextend early/midgame, and prime can sort of do so via the warriors. And while they're buffing...well, it's a 12"+ buff: I'm wanting them to screen/hold close midfield, but I'm expecting to get pressured and charged. It's 12 hive guard, sitting back is generally a losing strategy. So lash whips and counter charge. Ultimately I think BL's better, but prime's 45 pts cheaper and I don't think BL's 45 pts better.

Though mal is also an option that I keep forgetting for some reason...hmm...Ultimately prime seems more fun (for TTS at least: exploding and auto wound with full rrs on 80 attacks sounds painful with actual dice), but mal may actually be better: with everything being Levi, it gives everything just that extra little bit of survivability, and may make Freebooterz procs awkward.

I like ignore invul and I cannot lie - but if I wasn't going to play that ACFlyrant, I think you can work out a BL and 1-2 units of Gargs, and a Pyrovore somewhere to do actions that u need, steal obj, move block, etc. The BL can take the WLT instead of extra adaptation, for the redeploy if that is your shtick.

Redeploy+Swarmlord seems like a very powerful combo: it's not like we haven't managed before, so maybe isn't necessary over double adapts, but I'll run it first and see. And since flyrant needs size, and a big warrior blob as a damage+tank really needs enhanced...it's one or the other. I'm not sure that flyrant is better, but tbh for that list I don't think you run prime+BL, even dropping the flyrant. So not sure what you'd run instead.

It doesn't match your 2x HG per se - but it has similar kind of output that you can leverage from midfield.

It's similar level of firepower, but I think where it really differs is that HG excel at more surgical removal: important unit out of LoS? Left just something sitting on an objective? Want to hide for going 2nd? Ultimately it still seems very solid, but...I dunno, I think it only stacks up if warriors can actually properly tank to contest midboard. Which I think is only a maybe.

[kazetanade]

If my recollection is correct - maths for auto-wounding is that it doubles your output at 6s, has a marked increase at 5s, is ok to use at 4s, and is pointless at 3s.

So ideally you really want auto-wounding on the gaunts instead of Stealers, but Stealers still benefit well from it. Since your other thread we discussed at nearly equivalent pts of stealers and Hormas, you get similar defensive results but significantly better output dmg, having 2 stealer units gives the Primes buff good meaning. Hence the Prime being there is good - it as of itself sucks, hence why you justify it by bringing more than 1 buff you leverage to do damage or get value. You can put that on others yes, but that also means the Prime is kinda worthless just for his auto wound 6s, as THAT alone is not worth 90pts.

On a side note, if I had misunderstood your thing about Horms and Stealers, do let me know - I do want to run Horms really. I just like them a lot, but the Hive Mind brokers no favouritism in light of efficient biomass collectors XD

A BL I think is indeed worth that 45pts more if you can do 1 of:

1. Can use it for Ritual
2. Can buff stealers with it
3. Use the S.lk meaningfully
4. Get it into combat and kill something, or die and kill something

And honestly I like the Prime+BL+GS pairing. It works together really well. This is the kind of interlocking synergy we used to crave for our codex.

The warriors are contingent on them surviving midfield. I'm not very sure if they can, but on top of head they will for a good number of turns. Esp with BL buff in place. HG are still there and very good for surgical precision strikes, but Warriors will do a good job of chunking things that need to come out in the open, which is something you ALSO need and that your 2nd HG unit usually gets roped into doing anyway.

Not sure if I left out any other points...

[No One]

kazetanade said:

If my recollection is correct - maths for auto-wounding is that it doubles your output at 6s, has a marked increase at 5s, is ok to use at 4s, and is pointless at 3s.

...I really need to sort out this spreadsheet. Anyway, sounds about right: I've got a 10-20% increase for on 4s, and a 30-40% increase on 5s, depending on armour. Considering I'm not really concerned about killing T3, it seems a fairly solid offensive buff.

having 2 stealer units gives the Primes buff good meaning. Hence the Prime being there is good - it as of itself sucks, hence why you justify it by bringing more than 1 buff you leverage to do damage or get value.

Yeah, fair: part of the reason I'd liked the double stealer unit in the list I posted above, but I agree with zimko that it needs a bit more objective holding ability over damage, which bulking out the warriors a bit should help with nicely.

A BL I think is indeed worth that 45pts more if you can do 1 of:

1. Can use it for Ritual
2. Can buff stealers with it
3. Use the S.lk meaningfully

Agreed, I'm just sceptical of 1 and 2 especially. Actually, on thinking on it more I'm not even sure on 2: +1 to hit's solid but not amazing if you're going for the rrs and tesla. It could mean you don't need those, which would be good, but I don't think it's a 45 pt upgrade.

4. Get it into combat and kill something, or die and kill something

This I'm more 'maybe' on. But *quick maths* maybe I'm just overestimating warriors, even with prime+link .

On a side note, if I had misunderstood your thing about Horms and Stealers, do let me know - I do want to run Horms really. I just like them a lot, but the Hive Mind brokers no favouritism in light of efficient biomass collectors XD

Remind me later, I'll try and do up something proper over the weekend, but I think you've got the right of it unless I've missed something major or majorly stuffed something up  .

[zimko]

I've come to the decision that if I want to run 2 units of hive guard, I can't fit in a maleceptor or venomthropes. This leaves me with 2 lists. One is more offensive and one is more defensive. They both have the same core units tho.

Offensive Levi list
HQ
- Flyrant: venom cannon, MRC, -1 to wound relic
- Swarmlord
- Prime: reroll hits, redeploy, s. link
Troops
- 17 genestealers
- 28 devgants
- 20 devgants
- 9 warriors with lashwhip/bonesword, s. link
- 3 warriors with s. link
Elites
- 6 HG
- 6 HG
- Lictor
Fast Attack
- 10 Gargoyles

Defensive List
HQ
- Flyrant: venom cannon, MRC, -1 to wound relic
- Swarmlord
- Prime: reroll hits, redeploy, s. link
Troops
- 16 genestealers
- 20 horms
- 30 devgants
- 9 warriors with lashwhip/boneswords, s. link
Elites
- 6 HG
- Lictor
- Maleceptor with s.link
- Venomthropes
Fast Attack
- 10 Gargoyles
- 10 Gargoyles

I've tried building a list with 2 HG units and a maleceptor and still maintain the core HQs/troops but it ends up being very thin on infantry. Having extra HG doesn't help much if they get tagged too easily.

The risk is surviving Ork LOS ignoring guns, as well as any other random LOS ignoring weapons. Having 2 units of HG means I have some redundancy but of course they have no protection. The other list has both -1 to hit and -1 strength which can completely neuter the alpha strike from some armies. However I have no redundancy in HG. And of course I don't have reroll damage, just +1 to hit.

[No One]

zimko said:

I've come to the decision that if I want to run 2 units of hive guard, I can't fit in a maleceptor or venomthropes.

'Cepter I agree, but venomthropes...well, also no, but a mal instead of a prime? It feels like a reasonable shift to centralise the list along the offence/defence scale without sacrificing pieces or drastic shifts.

Anyway, like both lists, though I'd be worried about RoD with only one lictor. And screening...maybe an issue with the first list? Probably not though, the 20 man can do that if needed, and you've got the warriors/gargs, though they'd prefer to be somewhere else.

Also not sure if just brevity, but 5+ regen relic seems auto take for 1 CP if you've got somewhere to put it.

[zimko]

Oct 22, 2021 14:48:24 GMT No One said:

Also not sure if just brevity, but 5+ regen relic seems auto take for 1 CP if you've got somewhere to put it.

Oh that should be on the Prime, I just forgot to put it in.

RoD is more difficult but not impossible. The Gargoyles can deep strike too and there's usually enough room for them to arrive. There may be games where I don't take RoD, instead taking To the Last, something involving killing and the mission objective. RoD is just kind of a 'I have nothing else to take' secondary to me. 1 Lictor I feel is sufficient. And with this list I'm probably never taking Engage on All Fronts anymore. Stranglehold will be taken more often.

[bestaltan]

My friend reminded me last night why the relic bonesword has its place.

The new BT bladeguard vet sergeant can ignore a LOT of our army. The relic bonesword ignores their ignoring.

[zimko]

There's only very few situations where the relic bonswords will shine... and in almost all those situations, a kill can be accomplished with the proper application of genestealers.

[beetlejuice]

Oct 22, 2021 15:17:24 GMT bestaltan said:

My friend reminded me last night why the relic bonesword has its place.

The new BT bladeguard vet sergeant can ignore a LOT of our army. The relic bonesword ignores their ignoring.

dont they still have 1+ armor saves? So murderous size boneswords still only takes them to 4+?