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Post by gigasnail on Nov 7, 2019 1:27:10 GMT
big difference in 22 point base and 70 (is that right?) points base. easy brigade fodder as well.
i still don't think primes will live with eliminators around; neither would single character warriors. the difference is, we wouldn't care.
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Post by hivemind03 on Nov 7, 2019 2:20:36 GMT
Fluff-wise, the horde to monster ratio has always been wrong. At least now the gaunt carpet is a thing and that's a little better than im used to seeing... the idea of more than one hive tyrant in an army has always been preposterous to me. Even if we are playing an abstract representation of a tyranid army, imagining that a gaunt unit is really much bigger, there should only be one hive tyrant in the battle. At least that's how I understand it.
To this point I would love to see our synapse guys and monsters be limited but much more powerful.
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Post by killercroc on Nov 7, 2019 3:02:57 GMT
GW could make Nids a lot fluffier with a few steps, and they're not even radical there are strats in other armies that should be in Nids. The main issue of getting an early book is power creep and having to wait for a 2.0 codex or any sort of update is terrible.
My thoughts for nid changes easy enough... Bump gaunt squads to a max of 50 per unit rather than 30 and give them that one strat Orks and Chaos guard have that once a game you can bring a squad back on the board that hasn't been wiped out. 50 gaunts makes much more sense for a horde, and bringing them back... does anyone else remember Without Number? That was the perfect opportunity for a Strat and GW fumbled hard on it. Hell most people don't even bring many gaunts these days so I'm sure if they increased unit size and gave us a way to bring gaunts back they'd probably see an increase in sales of gaunts. Sure the people that have been playing since editions past probably have enough gaunts but I'm sure people who started in 8th don't have near enough so it would be an attractive option. Also, it makes their brood ability actually useful. 20+ gaunts for an ability in a unit of 30 max and one of the weakest in the game means that ability is never going to come into play outside of tunnel or pod gaunts that show up mid-game.
I like the idea of Elite warriors too, you can sprinkle them in your army to play it like an actual Tyranid army. Give them slightly better stats, 4 wounds and base BS 3+ and have them be minor aura characters for 40ish points would be great.
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 7, 2019 3:06:11 GMT
You have always been able to do a gaunt carpet. Its just never really been good. I am not convinced it's any good now. There is too much firepower and we lack any sort of durability and have no stackable -X to hit debuffs.
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Post by hivefleetkaiju on Nov 7, 2019 4:08:03 GMT
making them single character elites would be a great idea, we've talked about this in past editions. Maybe making them Min Max at 3 models as a unit but all 3 models are a character as a unit, to more fit the fluff |
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Post by mule on Nov 7, 2019 14:45:28 GMT
You have always been able to do a gaunt carpet. Its just never really been good. I am not convinced it's any good now. There is too much firepower and we lack any sort of durability and have no stackable -X to hit debuffs. A buddy brings 120 boyz to the table every game and brings 30 back with the stratagem. He always ends with 0 boys. I dont think gaunt carpet is any different. They dont have the staying power as 5+ fnp or a way to force other armies 24 inches away. |
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Post by killercroc on Nov 7, 2019 15:11:04 GMT
That's why I'd like some fluffy rules to make gaunts better, gaunt carpet should be a thing GW just didn't implement the rules to allow it. I have noticed GW is very wishy-washy with what is fluffy or not with both their rules and the units, perfect example is a tank can shoot from any part of it, even an antenna over a wall but a Carnifex can't attack something 2" off the ground that's at the perfect nom height.
Gaunts lost a lot of their usefulness and really unless you're spamming them hardcore taking a few is almost always a waste in the game. Oh you brought 50 of them? Well now you have 10 left at them end of your opponents T1. Ohh, so fun, much wow.
Why I say give them strats and buff their unit size. I'd even advocate for them to be 3 points since the only thing weaker than them in the game is a Grot, and Grots arguably are a better shooting unit and have army synergy. They have poor leadership, poor save, and poor weapons with even worse weapon upgrades (not the Devourer) and they die in buckets, why not drop them a point? If we're suppose to spam them in hordes make it actually a valid tactic. I don't want my gaunts to be 360 no-scoping marines off the board, but if their lot in life is to die by the thousands soaking up bullets so my other bugs can do something I'd like to see that reflected in game. It's kinda like wahat guard had with conscripts, however the main difference there was while they ignored morale for the most part like us most people took the living saint to give them a 5++ which made them damn near unmovable, it'd be much more balanced in our army.
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Post by mule on Nov 7, 2019 16:24:19 GMT
That's why I'd like some fluffy rules to make gaunts better, gaunt carpet should be a thing GW just didn't implement the rules to allow it. I have noticed GW is very wishy-washy with what is fluffy or not with both their rules and the units, perfect example is a tank can shoot from any part of it, even an antenna over a wall but a Carnifex can't attack something 2" off the ground that's at the perfect nom height. Gaunts lost a lot of their usefulness and really unless you're spamming them hardcore taking a few is almost always a waste in the game. Oh you brought 50 of them? Well now you have 10 left at them end of your opponents T1. Ohh, so fun, much wow. Why I say give them strats and buff their unit size. I'd even advocate for them to be 3 points since the only thing weaker than them in the game is a Grot, and Grots arguably are a better shooting unit and have army synergy. They have poor leadership, poor save, and poor weapons with even worse weapon upgrades (not the Devourer) and they die in buckets, why not drop them a point? If we're suppose to spam them in hordes make it actually a valid tactic. I don't want my gaunts to be 360 no-scoping marines off the board, but if their lot in life is to die by the thousands soaking up bullets so my other bugs can do something I'd like to see that reflected in game. It's kinda like wahat guard had with conscripts, however the main difference there was while they ignored morale for the most part like us most people took the living saint to give them a 5++ which made them damn near unmovable, it'd be much more balanced in our army. Eh s4 shots is pretty good. I dont think gants are the issue. They're pretty strong. Fearless s4 screen for cheap. I think the issue is the utility. We can't push them forwards. Maybe there aren't enough bodies to stop a whole unit to get blasted off. Some of the issues is that the competitive format isn't an official format, so i'm not entirely sure GW is balancing for ITC. We really need a GW backed I think the issue is that our big bugs aren't cheap enough/durable enough to weather the shooting. Flyrants were dominating when we could take 7 so we got limited to 3 but why the price increase? Reduce the price back down. Reduce tervigons and tfex and exocrines and all the other big creatures. Things without invulns should be dirt cheap regardless of how good the shooting and stats are. |
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 7, 2019 18:51:14 GMT
Gaunts are just too squishy. If they were 5+ with a 6+++, they'd probably be quite a bit better - same tankability as Guardsmen, less ldship but Synapse, single shot half range S4, etc.
GW changes are usually done with ITC testing as the basis - most of the feedback is from tournament organizers and some such, using ITC as the testbed. So yes, it's taking into account whats happening in the tourney scene, at least.
I reaaaaaaaaaaaaally dont want to see 50pts Drop Pods or Rhino/Razorbacks/Predators/Stalkers/Hunters/Whirlwinds/Landraiders, please - and that's before we start talking about cheaper Tank Commanders, Fire Prisms, and Annihilation Barges, or cheaper Crimson Hunters, Hemlocks and Croissants. We should NOT be making blanket cheap costs just because there's a lack of an invul.
Things are suppose to be hard to weather the shooting, if things die fast the game moves faster. The damn Repulsor is a 300pt model - it SHOULD be a bit difficult to remove, and conversely something that's only 150pts should be easier to kill. This is war - and war isnt going to wait nicely for you to get to fire that Tomahawk missle, so we just need to work around the fact that a single Exo/TFex is gonna get focused down.
What our Big Bugs need is to make their shooting more competent/effective most of the time, without increasing their cost. I dont care if I lose 1 TFex a turn, if my remaining 2 can take out a tank each like they're supposed to in the lore. Overwhelm them until they can no longer deal with everything you have at hand.
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Post by mule on Nov 7, 2019 19:23:42 GMT
Gaunts are just too squishy. If they were 5+ with a 6+++, they'd probably be quite a bit better - same tankability as Guardsmen, less ldship but Synapse, single shot half range S4, etc. GW changes are usually done with ITC testing as the basis - most of the feedback is from tournament organizers and some such, using ITC as the testbed. So yes, it's taking into account whats happening in the tourney scene, at least. I reaaaaaaaaaaaaally dont want to see 50pts Drop Pods or Rhino/Razorbacks/Predators/Stalkers/Hunters/Whirlwinds/Landraiders, please - and that's before we start talking about cheaper Tank Commanders, Fire Prisms, and Annihilation Barges, or cheaper Crimson Hunters, Hemlocks and Croissants. We should NOT be making blanket cheap costs just because there's a lack of an invul. Things are suppose to be hard to weather the shooting, if things die fast the game moves faster. The damn Repulsor is a 300pt model - it SHOULD be a bit difficult to remove, and conversely something that's only 150pts should be easier to kill. This is war - and war isnt going to wait nicely for you to get to fire that Tomahawk missle, so we just need to work around the fact that a single Exo/TFex is gonna get focused down. What our Big Bugs need is to make their shooting more competent/effective most of the time, without increasing their cost. I dont care if I lose 1 TFex a turn, if my remaining 2 can take out a tank each like they're supposed to in the lore. Overwhelm them until they can no longer deal with everything you have at hand. I mostly meant that for 4 point's they're in a fine spot. The issue is the lack of buffs they can get from other units. No blanket FNP, no blanket invuln. if you could take them in units of 50 i'm not sure it'd fix any issues 200 points worth of gaunts isn't really going to change anything other than how many points your opponent can score. It just seems weird that the rules in the books aren't the rules what tournaments are playing. So GW should just adopt those rules and tote them as their own and that way all balance changes should be according to that. As far as point drops, I meant on our stuff I should've prefaced that i'm talking about nids. I think it's the fluffiest best way to balance our army is just letting us have more (please do not swear) on the board. We already worked around the fact that a single exo/tfex is going to get focus'd down by taking 2. But for what 2 exo or 2 tfex does we should really be able to bring a third. Increasing consistency on our units is nice and dandy but it doesn't feel niddy. I'd rather just have more models on the board. If you're paying for 2 tfex and one dies then the last one either has to be really (please do not swear) good which isn't likely to happen for us, or play to the swarm and threat overload theme, by just reducing the points by 33% so you can just take a third tfex, and 9cfex for the price of 6, and 3 flyrants for the price of 2 and 3 exocrine for the price of 2 etc. |
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 7, 2019 19:32:15 GMT
yeah you're not likely to see 33% price drops across the board. i mean, i'd love to see exactly that, but it's not going to happen.
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Post by mule on Nov 7, 2019 19:51:16 GMT
yeah you're not likely to see 33% price drops across the board. i mean, i'd love to see exactly that, but it's not going to happen. Don't think we're going to see exocrines and tfex shooting profiles get a lot better though. Haha. |
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Post by killercroc on Nov 7, 2019 20:13:59 GMT
33% drop across the board? A bit too far, but there are for sure price drops needed. Why is the Carnifex 67 points when the dreadnought is 60 and has a base WS/BS 3+? It's obvious things need to change, but by how much I'm unsure. The Neuro didn't need a bump up to 90 pts, yeah it's a 2 power psyker with a 3++ but it has no wargear and the powers it gains access to are nothing compared to the powers of say marine, Death Guard, or Daemons. I'm sure a lot of stuff needs an adjustment but I don't think we are likely to see a decent enough one to actively make a difference. Lots of the CA changes are a wash if anyone has looked into it, basically if every army gets a 25% price drop than nothing really lowered in price because percentage wise they're the exact same as they were before.
That and our MCs are still trash. WS/BS 4+ Shooting/combat creatures with 3/4 shots/attacks is a joke.
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 7, 2019 20:29:46 GMT
sometimes i think the tyranids base profiles in 8th got the wink and a nod at a development time when damage worked like it does in AoS (i.e. it all spills over like mortal wounds in 40k, with the only difference for mortal wounds being they bypass saves). d6 damage monstrous scything talons on trygons and the like start to be a lot more attractive when you're looking at 5d6 wounds potentially. that's an infantry reaper.
but, yeah, i think that's assigning a little too much planning to a company that admittedly does very, very little in the way of planning.
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Post by killercroc on Nov 7, 2019 20:36:18 GMT
40K with damage spill over? Well damn if I'm not curious to how that'd play. Honestly it sounds better to me, and gives big weapons and units some real power.
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