|
|
Post by iniquity on Jul 11, 2019 19:54:49 GMT
I've been playing since December and I keep getting my arse handed to me. Like, i play 2 times a week with a simular list. (stealer sling) and I'm just always losing.
My friend who plays orcs has done really well in some tornaments and I just keep p getting stomped. All of the effort I put into the planning of trapping and fighting again into things just seems to come unraveled with very little effort from my opent.
It really feels like I need to tailor my list to every army.
I'm tempted to give up on nids and play orcs, they seem very similar but better.
|
|
|
|
Post by xsquidz on Jul 11, 2019 20:13:22 GMT
I've been playing since December and I keep getting my arse handed to me. Like, i play 2 times a week with a simular list. (stealer sling) and I'm just always losing. My friend who plays orcs has done really well in some tornaments and I just keep p getting stomped. All of the effort I put into the planning of trapping and fighting again into things just seems to come unraveled with very little effort from my opent. It really feels like I need to tailor my list to every army. I'm tempted to give up on nids and play orcs, they seem very similar but better. Can you give us more info? How many points do you play, is the terrain any good, what models do you have, what armies do you normally play against and what do you bring besides the genestealer sling? Nids are not top tier by far but should be able to hold your own versus a variety of armies. |
|
|
|
Post by LordPathos on Jul 11, 2019 20:28:42 GMT
Let's look at this objectively: Orks are great in close combat with their weight of attacks. So the obvious first step is to cull the herd with shooting. Orks come in high numbers, so we need tons of shots. Orks have relatively low toughness, so we don't need super high strength for our shots, mid range strength will do. Orks have bad armor, so tons of AP isn't needed either. So what weapon do Tyranids have that shoots a ton, has mid strength, and doesn't worry about AP?  |
|
|
|
Post by NidNoms on Jul 11, 2019 20:33:49 GMT
i have mainly used a lot of gaunts and normal Genestealers with 1 Hive Tyrant and a small team of cultists as backup, got about a 50-70% win rate, if you want i can give you an army list i have used, also timing when to ambush and use your tactics are key to a win
|
|
|
|
Post by nackanid on Jul 12, 2019 4:20:21 GMT
i have mainly used a lot of gaunts and normal Genestealers with 1 Hive Tyrant and a small team of cultists as backup, got about a 50-70% win rate, if you want i can give you an army list i have used, also timing when to ambush and use your tactics are key to a win Please post it, would love to see it! The thing with stealers is that it's old news, people know how to counter them. If you play just against orks, I'm not surprised you're having a rough time. Try out 30 devilgaunts, shooting twice. You need to protect them and DS them in. Best way is with Raveners using the Jorm-strat. When playing Orks, tempo is a really big thing. You can't let them decide when to interact, dealing with one squad at the time is crucial. And killing it... I play lots of ITC mainly and play the gauntcarpet with some hardhitting characters, been somewhat successful. But it's how you play, not neccessary what you play, that's determines if you win or loose. |
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jul 12, 2019 6:27:31 GMT
^
I play mostly variations of the Genestealer Sling and win more than I lose, but the margins are slim. Usually a failed charge or a mistake in target priority is enough to do the list in. Its gotten slimmer since taking on GSC as I lose redundancy, but I have a more consistent matchup against most armies (albeit consistently hard).
If you're facing difficulty that you can't overcome and it's wearing you down, you either keep at it or play something else - I always advocate to keep at it, but when you can't take it, you just can't, so try something else.
If you want to keep at it, then a few things :
- target priority is a real thing. Some armies you can safely wrap, some will eat you alive if you wrap. Knights eat you alive if you wrap (I do it to take other LOS ignoring and the avenger cannons out of the equations), as do Bullgryns (unless you out range them), Orks, Shield Caps, and a few different assortments of stupid powered characters.
- knowing your damage is important. It takes 8 GS to average confirm a kill on an infantry squad - hence you can safely split 9 and 9 to kill 2, and variance down still, to clear for Overrun and Fight Again further in. Similarly, it takes 15GS to kill a tank or something ridiculous like that, and GS should never be run into T5 elites or mega invuls unless they don't hit back enough in melee.
- GS needs back up damage. They're bad with tanks, and love to wrap what's inside, but not the tank itself. Having some stuff to help kill tanks and transports is important.
- counterchargers. Be very, very, very wary of counterchargers. Only 10% of my losses has been from failed charges. 90% from not acknowledging the damage from counterchargers.
|
|
|
|
Post by swarm492 on Jul 12, 2019 12:50:40 GMT
The game has changed so much from when I started but I wanted to tell you not to feel bad even when it gets frustrating. I lost every game I played the first year of playing 40k. Also, I'm not saying don't use commonly used or advertised tactcis. Just that when something goes wrong don't think of the army or tactic as bad, it's a game of dice, reflecting on each game is very important and a huge part of table performance is also the skil base of the player.
Expand your opponent base and play games of different point values to keep gaining experiance so you can forsee issues on the table better and be better able to read the ebb and flow of the game.
It might be because I come from an edition when crazy super efficient tactics/builds didn't exist, but I look at A+B= victory builds as being dangerous to a new player. They bring victory, but you don't learn that much from them. So when the tactic/build doesn't work, the player doesn't understand why.
Keep at it is what I'm trying to say I guess.
|
|
|
|
Post by Overread on Jul 12, 2019 12:54:30 GMT
A few thoughts:
1) Wargamers are great at giving advice on how to build lists. You'll get loads of tips on how to build a list to work well - however advice for actually playing the game is often very hard to find outside of very generalist comments. This is a major failing online of gamers and it makes advancing and learning your game that much harder.
2) Make sure there's enough terrain on the table. Sometimes an imbalance of terrain or poor terrain placement can result in unfair bias toward one army over the other. This is often the case when one army is close combat and the other ranged focused and there isn't enough line-of-sight blocking terrain on the table to block sight pathways for the ranged player.
3) Start taking notes as you play the game, if you can take photos of the start and end of each turn to help out. This is all about working out what went wrong, where things moved to and how your opponent played the game and how you did. You can use it to spot patterns and if there's any actions you or they keep repeating which results in a positive or negative outcome for you. This is all about aiding your self learning aspect of the game and whilst it can feel like its "sucking the fun out of it"; it instead can be all about putting the fun back in. A more intense period of review of games can help you advance your game so much faster and mean that soon you can put the note paper down because you can see those errors and patterns of play without having to study them - and you can counter or deal with them.
4) Keep an eye on the objectives not just the kill counter. One of the most common bits of advice, though tricky to put into practice as often beating the enemy is required or almost essential to secure the objectives. This one is really about not getting drawn into a kill-count fight and forgetting to hold an objective. It's about viewing each objective point and thinking to yourself - do I want to commit forces to securing that, if I do "can" I beat the enemy and secure it; or do I want to leave it for them and focus on others or do I want to contest it, at least denying them the point even if you can't secure it yourself.
5) Spend some time doing some maths theory. Mostly studying the unit profiles and getting a "feel" for what the rule of each unit is. Don't look at the fluff or story, look purely at the numbers. Is that super-powerful anti-tank weapon really worth it if the to hit 5+ and to wound 5+ on one attack is far more likely to miss than hit; perhaps a weaker weapon that has 2+ hit and 2+ wound is more reliable. Through this you also get a better idea of a units "role" on the tabletop.
Ergo what function it can perform for you - will it be charging forward, holding back; is it a tough unit that has weak attacks and thus is good to contest an objective or hold a position; or throw aginst the enemies powerful monster unit and tie it up for 3 turns so that their greater-demon can't come swinging in at the rest of your army.
This also helps a LOT when reviewing things that did and didn't work. By being aware of the chances of things happening you can work out if a tactic was a good choice or not. Perhaps your anti-tank unit fails to kill a tank, if its to hit was 3+ and to wound 2+ then you know that chances are it was just bad dice luck. The tactic was still valid, jsut that the dice weren't with you. Similarly if you fail to kill the tank and your anti tank was 5+ 5+ then you can reflect that, yes, it was a greater gamble and higher chance of not harming the enemy. It still might have been a good chioce or not, but you at least know that it was a risky choice.
6) Talk to your friend about it. Perhaps agree to a few "tutorial" games with them where you encourage them to explain how and why they are playing as they are. This might give you faster insight into what they are doing and thinking; how they are playing their army and thus where they are focusing their strengths and, importantly, where their weak points are. Perhaps you even swap armies a few times and you get a feel for the orks, but importantly also see them using your army.
It might be that you're taking the wrong things and/or playing them the wrong way. So that you're throwing away units in attacks that don't work well; or making poor choices that a better player would avoid. Sometimes swapping over can boost your confidence in your army as you can see it function and win; of course if it still loses then you know there's something wrong with your composition that you need to adjust.
7) Sometimes its good to have a more open game where, perhaps, you agree with your opponent that since they keep winning they take a handicap - 10% less points than you or some such. The idea being that you are both respecting the fact that there's a skill difference between you both. Thus whilst you're still learning every so often a handicap game lets you get a more even chance of winning by hobbling your opponent a bit to account for the skill gap.
This isn't cheating, this is just adjusting the games balance whilst taking into account an imbalance in player skill.
|
|
|
|
Post by 1b2a on Jul 12, 2019 14:39:54 GMT
Honestly if you haven't won a game all year, you must really not understand the basics of list building. The point of having stuff in your army is to kill more than the opponent. Stealer attacks are pointless if you through 200 points of damage and lose the full squad. 90% of the time this is what will happen in melee. You tie up a unit maybe for a shooting turn, but the unit gets wiped the next turn. Very bad way of plaing IMO.
|
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jul 12, 2019 15:03:08 GMT
Honestly if you haven't won a game all year, you must really not understand the basics of list building. The point of having stuff in your army is to kill more than the opponent. Stealer attacks are pointless if you through 200 points of damage and lose the full squad. 90% of the time this is what will happen in melee. You tie up a unit maybe for a shooting turn, but the unit gets wiped the next turn. Very bad way of plaing IMO. And your suggestion? |
|
|
|
Post by purestrain on Jul 12, 2019 15:22:58 GMT
Honestly if you haven't won a game all year, you must really not understand the basics of list building. The point of having stuff in your army is to kill more than the opponent. Stealer attacks are pointless if you through 200 points of damage and lose the full squad. 90% of the time this is what will happen in melee. You tie up a unit maybe for a shooting turn, but the unit gets wiped the next turn. Very bad way of plaing IMO. And your suggestion? Who cares? OP melee is nuanced, shooting is straight forward. I suggest incorporating hive guard and dakkafex into your army comp. |
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jul 12, 2019 16:25:25 GMT
We don't know what you have models wise or how well you understand the game.
My suggestions:
1. Ask your friend that is doing really well to give you some pointers. Alternatively, the next time after losing, ask to switch armies and then play it again. I bet you gain a ton of insight.
2. Buy, build, and paint 120+ termagants. You might lose games, but you'll never get outclassed and you'll start to learn the army better. Stop playing the big bugs until you master the little ones.
3. Start asking every opponent what you could have done differently. They'll actually tell you if you ask. This will help you separate list problems from tactics issues.
4. Try a different army. If you get the same result, it might be game fundamentals that need addressed, not the list/army.
5. Don't try to be unique, cute, or fluffy. Conventional lists win more games for a reason. You can be unique, cute, or fluffy, but your win rate will often suffer as a result. You didn't ask us how to be more unique, cute, or fluffy; you asked how to win.
|
|
|
|
Post by dan3dim on Jul 12, 2019 18:09:42 GMT
And timing.
If you play slower than your opponent, then your opponent have time to plan while wait.
If you play fast as you can, they don’t have enough time to plan and they planning to fail.
Work with me. Every opponent gave me enough time to headstart every start of my turn, my opponent ask me to slow down. Lol
|
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jul 12, 2019 18:22:57 GMT
Who cares? OP melee is nuanced, shooting is straight forward. I suggest incorporating hive guard and dakkafex into your army comp. I benefitted greatly when I started 40k from reading insightful articles or posts from members that explained much more detail in terms of thought processes, conditions to achieve, the strategy behind the game or game plan. sweeping statements like "if you cant win, you dont know anything about list building" is pretty generic, petty, unhelpful, and downright disencouraging. That's why people should care. We want people to get *better* at the game as a whole, not to quit. Stuff like what Overread suggested and what Mattblowers suggested help a new player more than sweeping statements like "you suck" or "get some carnifexen". New players can always use more guidance, and less ego talk. |
|
|
|
Post by xsquidz on Jul 12, 2019 19:22:58 GMT
I really want the OP to answer my questions in my first post just so we can get a better idea what we are working with and provide more help!
|
|
