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Post by 1b2a on Jul 12, 2019 19:42:10 GMT
Honestly if you haven't won a game all year, you must really not understand the basics of list building. The point of having stuff in your army is to kill more than the opponent. Stealer attacks are pointless if you through 200 points of damage and lose the full squad. 90% of the time this is what will happen in melee. You tie up a unit maybe for a shooting turn, but the unit gets wiped the next turn. Very bad way of plaing IMO. And your suggestion? I put about just amount effort in my advice (which is still good) as his question. He can follow-up if he wants IMO. That's just how I usually operate, (don't mean this with any attitude to your question, I'm just explaining). |
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Post by 1b2a on Jul 12, 2019 19:45:38 GMT
Who cares? OP melee is nuanced, shooting is straight forward. I suggest incorporating hive guard and dakkafex into your army comp. Not sure if you're saying who cares about what I have to say or agreeing with me lol |
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Post by fawxkitteh on Jul 14, 2019 1:17:14 GMT
There's a lot of dice rolling in this game.
You can't control the outcome of every roll (just certain ones if you spend CP)
What you can control is where you position things and what targets you choose. Pay attention to the probability of success rather than just doing things and crossing your fingers.
Your goal is to decide what targets are worth attacking, which is largely influenced by the datasheets, and how important taking various positions is to you.
Genestealers are very glass cannon. They can shred a lot of things, so they're a high priority target for your enemy. And since Genestealers die easily, unless you get the good rolls to take advantage of their mobility it's very possible for them to die before they do anything.
I haven't played too much Tyranids yet, but back when I played a lot of Starcraft 2 I saw a lot of people focusing really hard on countering their opponent's units. I'm of the mindset that you should focus on how you use what you have.
Counters have a place, but if you don't understand the fundamentals you're overwhelming yourself with complication and you'll struggle to juggle it all in your head.
I spent a good deal of time building nothing but Zerglings and beating people who were building the hard counters to Zerglings, even at diamond level, simply by knowing the strength of the most basic Zerg fighters (it's different due to how economy plays a role in Starcraft, but I still think it helps to get in the mindset of thinking about tactics and strategy rather than composition)
The most important thing is to learn a little bit from each loss.
Do some math, some theorizing, experiment, and see how things change, but try not to mess with too many variables at the same time.
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Post by yoritomo on Jul 14, 2019 1:53:21 GMT
Stealer slingshot is a deceptively hard list to play. As others have pointed out, they are a bit of a glass cannon. In order for a class cannon to do well you must identify your opponent’s key units and hit them before your glass cannon breaks. If your glass cannon breaks before you have eliminated your opponent’s key units than you may as well spot your opponent a couple hundred points to add on to his army.
The real problem is that there are several implied tasks you must accomplish before you can actually attack. First off you must identify his key units. Is that mob of 30 ork boys really a key unit? Or are his ork bikes a key unit? Or are they both key units? It’s not easy to figure out in the middle of a game is it? Sadly this comes with experience. When your stealers are off the table pay attention to what in his army is either scoring points or doing damage. Also ask if the unit or units doing damage are boosted in any way. Those should be the targets for your stealers.
Once you’ve identified a target there is the implied task of getting to them. Stealer slingshot is fairly forgiving in this regard as they can charge after advancing as well as double move with the swarmlord. What’s more of a problem is screens and bubble wrap. If your opponent has his important units surrounded by grots then you will need to figure out a way to deal with them before you can charge.
There are some things you can do right now that will help. The easiest thing to do is just talk to your opponent after the game. Ask him what his game plan was. Was it anything like what you saw while the game was unfolding? Ask what your opponent thought you did well. Also ask what your opponent thought you did wrong. And ask follow up questions you may have. If your opponent isn’t a douche he’ll help you out.
One thing you should never do is accept that you lost because of “bad rolls” or “bad luck” or “karma” or anything else like that. Does it happen? Sure. But nobody ever got better by saying “I lost because my opponent made all his armor saves, I’ll do the same thing again next time and maybe I’ll have better luck.”
Also, if you want out help than please give us some more information. Game size, army lists, other armies you play, other armies you play against, models you own, anything can be helpful. As you have seen, there are plenty of people here who are willing to help (some are more helpful than others obviously). We want you to get to a place where you have fun with your tyranids and not losing all the time.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jul 14, 2019 3:33:12 GMT
Lots of useful insight here, and being one that struggled with Nids earlier in 8th and still GSC, I can confirm that patience are key to success with Tyranid related armies. Up until probably 2 or 3 months ago, I never could successfully wrap a unit. Why? I never had it planned out properly, usually overextending the charge or just doing it sloppy. The Hive has helped me tremendously with tactics and honestly the hardest part for me was admitting that it wasn't working and I needed to adopt a new policy.
For example: My last pure Nid game saw me table Militarum 1st turn, killing roughly 1100 and disabling another 2-300 of 2000. It happened so quickly both my opponent and I were quite unsure what happened. I planned and it executed perfectly. The most rewarding feeling as Militarum has been my Kryptonite in 8th. Very first game using dual fleets. OOE torpedo is hilarious.
Missions are a wildcard and play very differently. Maelstrom,ITC, ETC all have very different goals and objectives in mind. I disliked Maelstrom but couldn't get anyone to jump on ITC, so I had to adapt. It is much better with discard 6 but I find the terrain is really 7th edition Line of sight ruling, and that sounds like part of your struggle.
I prefer the Genestealer ally myself but it can't be understated how desperately this army list needs screen clearing and ability to remove units from up high. Genestealers are useless if there is no room to stand, and chewing up a 40 point unit to lose a 240 isn't worth it.
A few basic checklist questions:
1: Do I have units that can score (Rippers are my favourite here.)
2: Do I have units that can effectively exchange points? (Orks are all good in melee, wrapping can even be detrimental)
3: Is there enough LOS blocking terrain? (Not so important here but against every other army basically)
I am a sucker for a theme too. I like to pick a Fleet, or a Relic or a tactic and build around that. This is more noticeable in GSC but mostly just because our relics and traits are meh for the most part. Sometimes it doesn't work. Grandparents out for a walk "OOE and Tervigon leading a swarm of Gants" was damn hilarious to play. It did not perform well at all. Comparatively Zerg rush "Swarmy + OOE + Genes" = enemy going to have a bad time.
6 Impaler Hive Guard, a few Smites and a Flyrant or 2 round out the melee. Take a Kronos detachment for extra fun.
I also second the dropping the big critters. TMC are overcosted, slow and most start at 4+ skill. The exceptions being Carnifex and Tyrants, mostly because they either have 4++ and deepstrike, or don't degrade.
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Post by Master Chief on Jul 14, 2019 17:01:53 GMT
Depends on the format you are playing. On ETC tyranids are not bad at all, on ITC they struggle a bit. At the moment I am winning almost every game I have, and I am playing a list that is not very easy to play, but is my list, is effective and for me is very fun to play it. It is full of little tricks and shenanigans, exactly how I like: Swarmlord, WL, Alien Cunning Flyrant full dakka, chameleonic mutation 20 genestealers 27 termagants 3 ripper swarms 3 tyrant guards 3 venomthropes Broodlord Broodlord 20 genestealers 20 genestealers 20 genestealers Obviously with GSC you can do much better, but I like to play pure nids. As you can see is a genestealers slingshot. As soon as I have some time (now I am on holidays in Croatia) I will give you some explanation on how the list work.  |
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Post by kurtangle2 on Jul 14, 2019 19:18:44 GMT
Depends on the format you are playing. On ETC tyranids are not bad at all, on ITC they struggle a bit. At the moment I am winning almost every game I have, and I am playing a list that is not very easy to play, but is my list, is effective and for me is very fun to play it. It is full of little tricks and shenanigans, exactly how I like: Swarmlord, WL, Alien Cunning Flyrant full dakka, chameleonic mutation 20 genestealers 27 termagants 3 ripper swarms 3 tyrant guards 3 venomthropes Broodlord Broodlord 20 genestealers 20 genestealers 20 genestealers Obviously with GSC you can do much better, but I like to play pure nids. As you can see is a genestealers slingshot. As soon as I have some time (now I am on holidays in Croatia) I will give you some explanation on how the list work. Slingshot one unit per turn and hope the enemy doesn't start first with overwhelming firepower since 80% of the list is comprised by Kraken Genestealers (which are very good at dealing damage and HORRIBLE at soaking anything)? Doesn't seem that original nor counterable, in fact any anti-infantry based list might clear your infantry in 2 turns |
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Post by dan3dim on Jul 14, 2019 19:53:04 GMT
Guys.... and Dame.. I think we best to hold our breath until owner post update this topic or it will become too long, don’t read for iniquity |
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Post by Master Chief on Jul 14, 2019 21:00:46 GMT
"Slingshot one unit per turn and hope the enemy doesn't start first with overwhelming firepower since 80% of the list is comprised by Kraken Genestealers (which are very good at dealing damage and HORRIBLE at soaking anything)? Doesn't seem that original nor counterable, in fact any anti-infantry based list might clear your infantry in 2 turns" Well, if nobody else is winning with this kind of list there might be a reason. If this is not working for most of the people there might be a reason. On ETC type tournaments I am usually offered as a first defender because I am not giving more than 10 or 9 points out of 20 to the opponent. And who player ETCs knows that a first defender that is giving no more than 10 points on each game is amazing. I was taking taus on open field and not board control mission, not giving them more than 9 or 10 points... Nids are not dead yet. Like my list (a simple genestealers slingshot but perfectioned to my playing style) there are other lists that can give amazing results. Just take a look at the ETC lists, there are a lot of interesting tyranid lists. Some of them might be good also in single tournaments. And I am curios to see how those lists will perform in the ETC. But if so many nations chose tyranids instead of other things, there is a reason. In the end that choice is taking 1 out of their 8 players. Tyranids are just hard to list and to play. Way less immediate than other codexes.  |
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Post by kurtangle2 on Jul 14, 2019 21:30:52 GMT
"Slingshot one unit per turn and hope the enemy doesn't start first with overwhelming firepower since 80% of the list is comprised by Kraken Genestealers (which are very good at dealing damage and HORRIBLE at soaking anything)? Doesn't seem that original nor counterable, in fact any anti-infantry based list might clear your infantry in 2 turns" Well, if nobody else is winning with this kind of list there might be a reason. If this is not working for most of the people there might be a reason. On ETC type tournaments I am usually offered as a first defender because I am not giving more than 10 or 9 points out of 20 to the opponent. And who player ETCs knows that a first defender that is giving no more than 10 points on each game is amazing. I was taking taus on open field and not board control mission, not giving them more than 9 or 10 points... Nids are not dead yet. Like my list (a simple genestealers slingshot but perfectioned to my playing style) there are other lists that can give amazing results. Just take a look at the ETC lists, there are a lot of interesting tyranid lists. Some of them might be good also in single tournaments. And I am curios to see how those lists will perform in the ETC. But if so many nations chose tyranids instead of other things, there is a reason. In the end that choice is taking 1 out of their 8 players. Tyranids are just hard to list and to play. Way less immediate than other codexes. First defender with 80 genestealers list? If you want to play that kind of game you either go Rusted Claw/Bladed Cog Neophyte spam or you flood the board with Termagant spam, but I can safely say that this list isn't particularly good nor better than any other (Board Control missions). Nids are indeed 90% ally material at best at the moment, they do not show up at top positions of major tournaments and when they do so they're taken as ally for the slingshot, nothing more nothing less. And please don't say "why so many Tyranids at ETC" because out of 10 Tyranids lists, 8 are GSC ones. P.S. Do you think Tyranids are "harder to list and play"? If I were you I'd start playing GSC just to see what "hard to list and play" really is. |
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 15, 2019 0:25:00 GMT
OP: I lost my first 20 games, and was getting real salty about it. I was losing because I was playing someone with serious experience and his tooled up tournament list. He told me not to worry about it, as soon as I found someone closer to my level of experience and with a similar collection of models (i.e. another beginner) I'd do just fine.
He was absolutely right. I tore a wide swathe through his more casually oriented friends, and when I moved and found another group of players, I mauled them too.
Serious players still gave me hell, because I didn't have the table time in that they did but it was never again so one sided.
You'll be fine, man. 40k isn't rocket science but it's not something you're going to pick up in an afternoon, either. Just give it time, and go get some games in.
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Post by Master Chief on Jul 15, 2019 9:36:32 GMT
"First defender with 80 genestealers list? If you want to play that kind of game you either go Rusted Claw/Bladed Cog Neophyte spam or you flood the board with Termagant spam, but I can safely say that this list isn't particularly good nor better than any other (Board Control missions)."
Well board control is an option, I don't have to go for it every single time.
But counting the disposition of the tables, the mission and other factors, going as defender with 80 genestealers was not a bad idea at all.
As usually most attackers are fielding aggressive lists in close combat and between screens, bubblewraps and charges or counter charges, 80 genestealers are not bad at all.
Or maybe other kind of attackers have an enormous amount of firepower, but they might suffer a dense table, and they might not bring home the points the team wanted from them.
Or maybe instead of sending 80 genestealers you can keep them for a late pairing to condition remaining pairings (because on the correct pairing 80 genestealers are a 20-0).
Genestealers spam and termagant carpet are 2 different things and have different purposes and weaknesses, you cannot change them at your will.
And even if you could do similar things with GSC, in the 8 lists you might have the genestealers AND the GSC. But most likely GSC will attack something, as they can guarantee a 20-0 on the good pairing.
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Post by kurtangle2 on Jul 15, 2019 10:03:42 GMT
"First defender with 80 genestealers list? If you want to play that kind of game you either go Rusted Claw/Bladed Cog Neophyte spam or you flood the board with Termagant spam, but I can safely say that this list isn't particularly good nor better than any other (Board Control missions)." Well board control is an option, I don't have to go for it every single time. But counting the disposition of the tables, the mission and other factors, going as defender with 80 genestealers was not a bad idea at all. As usually most attackers are fielding aggressive lists in close combat and between screens, bubblewraps and charges or counter charges, 80 genestealers are not bad at all. Or maybe other kind of attackers have an enormous amount of firepower, but they might suffer a dense table, and they might not bring home the points the team wanted from them. Or maybe instead of sending 80 genestealers you can keep them for a late pairing to condition remaining pairings (because on the correct pairing 80 genestealers are a 20-0). Genestealers spam and termagant carpet are 2 different things and have different purposes and weaknesses, you cannot change them at your will. And even if you could do similar things with GSC, in the 8 lists you might have the genestealers AND the GSC. But most likely GSC will attack something, as they can guarantee a 20-0 on the good pairing. Even with terrain board being dense it's nigh impossible not to be able to shoot at any of your EIGHTY GENESTEALER (which are also the only target and please don't say termagants because they're 1/4 of your Genestealers). GSC can also play as defender much better than you since you can leave Neophytes with 6++ on the board, benefitting from defensive Creed whilst being relatively cheap and able to get D6 models back when needed and then counter charge with your deepstrikes that are 100% FULL SIZED when trying a charge. GSC does everything Tyrs do BETTER right now, there's a reason why everybody has literally left them on the shelf for the time being. "BUT I LIKE THEM!" is not a valid reply when we're discussing the competitiveness of something. |
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Post by yoritomo on Jul 15, 2019 12:16:16 GMT
Dude, we aren’t here to discuss your ETC list. We are here to help iniquity win some games. If you want to talk about the merits of an 80 stealer list than start up a new thread for it.
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Post by kurtangle2 on Jul 15, 2019 12:32:55 GMT
Dude, we aren’t here to discuss your ETC list. We are here to help iniquity win some games. If you want to talk about the merits of an 80 stealer list than start up a new thread for it. Last Off Topic reply for me: Nobody at the E.T.C. took more than 40 Genestealers (and only 2 lists out of 10 took them) because there's literally no point in doing so since the marginal revenue product of Genestealers (to use a similar Economy concept) is decreasing to a point where it reaches 0. But you can't seem to understand that and yet you keep defending your 80 genestealer (please do not swear) list that nobody in his sanity would ever take if not for friendly troll games |
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