|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jul 16, 2018 7:37:44 GMT
Dawn Eagle Jetbikes. Its contextual but i thought its pretty clear there's no Dark Eldar in an Imperial Soup list
Thanks, I'm not up with some of the new armies, so I had no idea what they were till I looked them up just now. I still don't really know lol.
In Simple Words: The Imperiums Finest. They're T6 bikers that hit everything on a 2+ and reroll wounds on the charge. They can be kitted to screw hordes or to screw vehicles and Fliers. They have 6+ fnp against mortal wounds and a 4++ boostable to 3++ on multiple units. And they can reroll Hit/Wound/Saves of 1. They also have the weirdest mumber of wounds at 7. |
|
|
|
Post by russellr on Jul 16, 2018 7:58:38 GMT
Thanks, I'm not up with some of the new armies, so I had no idea what they were till I looked them up just now. I still don't really know lol.
In Simple Words: The Imperiums Finest. They're T6 bikers that hit everything on a 2+ and reroll wounds on the charge. They can be kitted to screw hordes or to screw vehicles and Fliers. They have 6+ fnp against mortal wounds and a 4++ boostable to 3++ on multiple units. And they can reroll Hit/Wound/Saves of 1. They also have the weirdest mumber of wounds at 7. Vertus Praetors? look similar, but with 4 wounds, and the shield-captain has 7 wounds. That sound right? |
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jul 16, 2018 8:01:04 GMT
In Simple Words: The Imperiums Finest. They're T6 bikers that hit everything on a 2+ and reroll wounds on the charge. They can be kitted to screw hordes or to screw vehicles and Fliers. They have 6+ fnp against mortal wounds and a 4++ boostable to 3++ on multiple units. And they can reroll Hit/Wound/Saves of 1. They also have the weirdest mumber of wounds at 7. Vertus Praetors? look similar, but with 4 wounds, and the shield-captain has 7 wounds. That sound right? Ah. I'm sorry. Its suppose to be Shield Captains on Dawn Eagle Jetbikes; i forgot that the bike itself is the DEJ, the unit entry is something else. Yes that'd be what I'm referring to. |
|
|
|
Post by undertow92182 on Jul 16, 2018 11:23:14 GMT
I've been contemplating the viability of running a Jorg detachment containing 6 shockguards and a Malanthrope. Malanthrope will give synapse and some defense in the form of a -1 on to hit rolls. Jorg gives the "always in cover" rule so that should help mitigate even more hurt so the fact they need to stick their heads out should be less of a death sentence. You would then use the unit as a mobile tankbuster squad. Get them within 24" of a knight and it should bring the pain.
You could also run it Kronos if you are less concerned about survivability and instead want to bring the hurt as much as possible.. though I'd think staying stationary with this unit would be a bad call.
|
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jul 16, 2018 11:26:31 GMT
I've been contemplating the viability of running a Jorg detachment containing 6 shockguards and a Malanthrope. Malanthrope will give synapse and some defense in the form of a -1 on to hit rolls. Jorg gives the "always in cover" rule so that should help mitigate even more hurt so the fact they need to stick their heads out should be less of a death sentence. You would then use the unit as a mobile tankbuster squad. Get them within 24" of a knight and it should bring the pain. You could also run it Kronos if you are less concerned about survivability and instead want to bring the hurt as much as possible.. though I'd think staying stationary with this unit would be a bad call. How are you going to keep them from being bad touched? I don't think this will end well. |
|
|
|
Post by undertow92182 on Jul 16, 2018 12:00:05 GMT
I've been contemplating the viability of running a Jorg detachment containing 6 shockguards and a Malanthrope. Malanthrope will give synapse and some defense in the form of a -1 on to hit rolls. Jorg gives the "always in cover" rule so that should help mitigate even more hurt so the fact they need to stick their heads out should be less of a death sentence. You would then use the unit as a mobile tankbuster squad. Get them within 24" of a knight and it should bring the pain. You could also run it Kronos if you are less concerned about survivability and instead want to bring the hurt as much as possible.. though I'd think staying stationary with this unit would be a bad call. How are you going to keep them from being bad touched? I don't think this will end well. Traditional bubble wrapping and terrain for the most part. There is a counter to every move and a move to every counter so it just depends upon saturation of targets, reserves, and deep striking. If anything moving a unit of Dakkafexes ahead of them and a unit of Devilgants behind should provide some decent strategic body blockers which still function well based on placement. |
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jul 16, 2018 12:03:59 GMT
Shock guard might work ok against knights (but I'm still not ready to concede impalers to them even there), but they are arguably worse against nearly every other list you might encounter. Play some games and see though.
|
|
|
|
Post by undertow92182 on Jul 16, 2018 12:37:09 GMT
Oh I agree whole heartedly.
To that point I don't even own Shockguard and have all my HG with impalers. However, if someone is facing a constant superheavy/knight local meta (As per the original premise) I would think this would be the most safe way to try to use one of our best anti-superheavy/knight units. But also have the dakkafexes and devilgants to handle squishier targets.
Toss in a flyrant or two coming in on the back field.. some DS rippers.. maybe even a swarmlord to give the knights(s) a different focal point.
Just spitballing ideas really.
|
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jul 16, 2018 12:56:32 GMT
All the reports that we see coming in are that Knights really aren't that much of a boogey man for 'nids.
What I am loving is how the meta is shifting. The lack of turn 1 alpha strikes means far fewer people are taking screens so the number of hordes is down. With the intro of Knights, people have to have some heavy weaponry to deal with them so volume of fire is being reduced. This means a TAC list is suddenly FOTM and I think Tyranids do TAC better than just about anyone.
|
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jul 16, 2018 17:04:00 GMT
All the reports that we see coming in are that Knights really aren't that much of a boogey man for 'nids. What I am loving is how the meta is shifting. The lack of turn 1 alpha strikes means far fewer people are taking screens so the number of hordes is down. With the intro of Knights, people have to have some heavy weaponry to deal with them so volume of fire is being reduced. This means a TAC list is suddenly FOTM and I think Tyranids do TAC better than just about anyone. I cant seem to agree with you that Knights arent that much of a boogeyman. I think we have a few ways to deal with it, but it involves not really TAC lists. I tested mass HVCs + HG vs a Knight list and truthfully, a Castellan can just stand outside of your perpectual range and just shower shots for days. Table edge to table edge, he can stay out of range for 3 turns if he was THAT afraid of our guns. Short of running RuptureFexes which it then has a harder time running from, we have issues reaching it. Rupture Fexes are NOT an answer either due to 1: easy to kill by the Castellan's longer range and unaffected shooting from moving, and 2: shooting 3 shots 4+ to hit against a 3++ save. Three MRC Flyrants are a reasonable option - is your opponent letting you Deepstrike within 12" of the Knight without chaff to eat the smite at all? Mine isnt. And my Flyrants arent really surviving Castellan shots into the body. Luckily its approx 1 dead Flyrant a turn instead of 2 or 3, so if your guns can get into range, things can happen. Do you have bodies upon bodies to throw at the enemy? What about Reaper points? 2 units of 19 arent living very long vs Crusaders or Gallants either, especially when backed by 9 Mortars in an IG thing. You can outscore Knights though! But only when there's more than 3 objectives on the board. And he forgot to bring any scoring at all. And god forbid he has full reroll Mortars for being Cadian HWTs or damn Shield Caps on DEJs. And, you know, ITC map based objectives being worth a damn at all. I'm not going to say we cant beat Knights. A bad Knight general is easy prey with a list that's prepared with countermeasures. But no way in hell am I going to agree it's an easy matchup, or that they're not a "boogeyman" because they damn well are a threat to be looked at. I think more useful for people would be a summarized number of points on how to handle Knights. Like how they work/to play against them tactically instead of spamming Shockguards or whatever. |
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jul 16, 2018 18:24:38 GMT
All the reports that we see coming in are that Knights really aren't that much of a boogey man for 'nids. What I am loving is how the meta is shifting. The lack of turn 1 alpha strikes means far fewer people are taking screens so the number of hordes is down. With the intro of Knights, people have to have some heavy weaponry to deal with them so volume of fire is being reduced. This means a TAC list is suddenly FOTM and I think Tyranids do TAC better than just about anyone. I cant seem to agree with you that Knights arent that much of a boogeyman. I think we have a few ways to deal with it, but it involves not really TAC lists. I tested mass HVCs + HG vs a Knight list and truthfully, a Castellan can just stand outside of your perpectual range and just shower shots for days. Table edge to table edge, he can stay out of range for 3 turns if he was THAT afraid of our guns. Short of running RuptureFexes which it then has a harder time running from, we have issues reaching it. Rupture Fexes are NOT an answer either due to 1: easy to kill by the Castellan's longer range and unaffected shooting from moving, and 2: shooting 3 shots 4+ to hit against a 3++ save. Three MRC Flyrants are a reasonable option - is your opponent letting you Deepstrike within 12" of the Knight without chaff to eat the smite at all? Mine isnt. And my Flyrants arent really surviving Castellan shots into the body. Luckily its approx 1 dead Flyrant a turn instead of 2 or 3, so if your guns can get into range, things can happen. Do you have bodies upon bodies to throw at the enemy? What about Reaper points? 2 units of 19 arent living very long vs Crusaders or Gallants either, especially when backed by 9 Mortars in an IG thing. You can outscore Knights though! But only when there's more than 3 objectives on the board. And he forgot to bring any scoring at all. And god forbid he has full reroll Mortars for being Cadian HWTs or damn Shield Caps on DEJs. And, you know, ITC map based objectives being worth a damn at all. I'm not going to say we cant beat Knights. A bad Knight general is easy prey with a list that's prepared with countermeasures. But no way in hell am I going to agree it's an easy matchup, or that they're not a "boogeyman" because they damn well are a threat to be looked at. I think more useful for people would be a summarized number of points on how to handle Knights. Like how they work/to play against them tactically instead of spamming Shockguards or whatever. This thread is 19 pages deep and every suggestion people proffer is given a "that won't work" dismissal. Meanwhile battle report after battle report from major events keep demonstrating that Knights armies are beaten again and again. They are not the impossible to beat list this thread thinks they are. Go read hiveminded report from the ATC, Knights weren't even close to his hardest matchup. |
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jul 16, 2018 19:26:13 GMT
This thread is 19 pages deep and every suggestion people proffer is given a "that won't work" dismissal. Meanwhile battle report after battle report from major events keep demonstrating that Knights armies are beaten again and again. They are not the impossible to beat list this thread thinks they are. Go read hiveminded report from the ATC, Knights weren't even close to his hardest matchup. I read it then went back and re-read it. I see a few mistakes which cost the Knights the game - the first is having Knights within the range of the Valiant, while the Valiant is out in front and the easiest to cast Mind Control on, likely without having anything pushing back the turn 1 deepstrike before the Knights pounced across the table. I thought we usually consider bad play from opponents to be "not a standard to rely on". that humoungous 22 MWs back onto hiveminded was lucky as hell too otherwise the game would have been his due to mostly the Valliant chewing up his own friend. The other Battle Report I saw here retold an incredible amounts of Mortal Wounds out of half a unit of Hive Guard. I dont even know how am I going to get the same result. The other BRs I saw reporting victory's were prefaced with "So I brought my Knight counter list". ...Whether that's definitive of most matches you'll get going into a competition I'll leave up to you. All I'm saying is that it's not an easy match up, and having a summary collection of tactics and tips to deal with Knights (specific Knights or big hulkers in general) for people to apply to their own situation would be the most useful thing we can get out of a huge thread and the collective experience fighting against Knights. Like for me, I find the Valiant + double Gallant to be the relatively easiest list to control - focus down the Valiant and speedbump the Gallants with chaff, then fly around it into the Guard at the back. This is the only Knight list which is forced to come to you instead of you to them, which means its the only Knight which is forced to fight in HVC and HG range. It's only condition is having enough chaff, which risks Reaper points. On the flipside, a Castellan looks and feels really hard to handle. It outranges all of our guns, and likely sits with a 2+ 4++ or a 3+ 4++ 5++(Combat). House Raven rerolls all 1s so it's D6 and 2D6 guns chew a lot of shots, and can be shot as if at full wounds at the top of its turn. Short of tying it up in combat, which I think can be done with a Fliers list, or engaging it with TS Genestealers in the GS Sling, or them having no wrap and just dropping Flyrants on it and making 3 charges, I'm seeing some difficulty actually engaging it in a meaningful way. With Castellans in play, it actually feels like a Horde Army is the best play, especially if the horde can handle the accompanying Gallants (assuming triple Knight base), and having enough Synapse that the Shieldbreaker Missles dont render the list to mush by auto killing synapse by accident. Helverins I've found to be a reasonable threat. I can tell that if I ignored them for a turn or 2, I'd end up regretting it quickly - so it's good that they arent too difficult to kill even with Genestealers. I managed to gun them out using Harpies + Deathspitter Flyrants, but I wasnt able to deal with the double or triple Crusaders that came with them. That was a game where I needed to engage them in combat to survive (but it took me too long to realize that). It was also one of those games where you could outscore them if you had the Horde bodies; in fact I managed to stay in the game until the last turn before being tabled precisely because of my Termagants stealing objectives from under their feet. It *SHOULDNT* have come down to that though. Warglaives have been a joke. Not sure if I should laugh or cry when my opponent uses them. I've found Double Crusaders to be the toughest of all my Knight matchups so far, unless I can engage them in combat mostly due to the ridiculous number of shots they get. Or, they wander into HG range which allows me to wail on one of them and force Rotate Ion Shield before choosing to shoot the other one or not. Havent come across with one of the Sword Variants, which I guess would be marginally more dangerous to charge but can be safely ignored pretty much. With a melee army though, I'm most afraid of charging a Valiant with anything that isnt at least a Flyrant with Catalyst. That flamer is really scary, but if he's got the rerollable flamer then he doesnt have an invul in combat. In general I've found Melee to be the only consistent way of dealing with Knights, even Gallants. It's been ridiculously difficult to break through a single Knight's 3++ save with anything meaningful (I've tested 7 HVCs from max Harpies + 1 Flyrant, and 3 Flyrants pouring DeathSpitters into Knights, as well as a full 7 Dakkafexes firing HVCs into it. Just doesnt work), and it's not easy to break through 3 Knight's 4+ (relic 2+)/4++. Smites have been the main carry, and of course Mind Control (which I have only succeeded 2 in 5 tries) and Mass Hypnopsis (3 in 9 tries) have been the best counter to them, especially the Valiants allowing me to charge them with things and potentially keeping them locked in. That leaves really few things usable - DS charging Flyrants, Trygons (like wuuuut rite), Fliers, or Swarmlord boosted OOE/SL himself. I've actually taken down a Valiant by using SL paired with 17 Purestrains unbuffed (but mostly SL via his Fight Twice and Voracious Appetite being a real game changer. OOE would do the same or better, just die right after). I havent found being able to score more objectives than a Knight to be particularly relevant. ITC doesnt reward you for massively outscoring your enemy. Some missions didnt event have enough objectives for me to score. |
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jul 16, 2018 19:42:33 GMT
All I'm saying is that it's not an easy match up, No one has said that it was. In fact, just the opposite has been stated over and over. But most of the pages in this thread aren't remotely that. They are "OMG!! KNIGHTS ARE TOO STRONG AND THEIR ISN'T ANY REASONABLE WAY TO DEAL WITH THEM!!" That just isn't the case. They present a real problem that has to be solved. But I still think it a problem that is solvable. General thoughts: Prevailing list of 1 dominus and 2 galants is beaten just like you stated: kill the dominus and speed bump the galants. It worked for you, me, and others so it's a pretty reasonable tactic. Biovores and gargoyles are a pretty reasonable way to hem them in. I haven't the foggiest how to deal with Knights plus Custodes, it brings a 1-2 punch I haven't found the counter too. Final tip: Play more games. It's still really early. Lots of people are reporting success, let's see what they did right. Remember is 6th when flyers dropped and everyone peed their pants? Then we adjusted and figured out how to counter. |
|
|
|
Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jul 16, 2018 20:33:56 GMT
Biovores and gargoyles are a pretty reasonable way to hem them in. How do you use gargoyles to hem in the knights? Is it just a matter of making sure they can't move through them? Can knights fall back through gargoyles? |
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Jul 16, 2018 20:53:16 GMT
i don't really think there needs to be much adaptation to win vs. knights. you treat them like they've always been treated. don't panic, play the mission, and outscore them. yes, they're foul. there are plenty of lists that are foul so that really shouldn't be anything new to deal with.
|
|
