Kaze's Theorycrafting Station [Nids Gorgon Gaunts]

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Gets basic Acos up to S5 too. But I wouldn't be charging them most of the time. So really the main benefactors are PGS here as they have access to no other real buffs other than TH creed and spells. And on that front, there's another issue - getting a psyker in range to cast both powers, which means wasting either +1A, or exploding 6s.

Infinite range/LoS strat helps a lot with TH power.

Off the cuff I'm thinking of TH, for that S5 PGS - 40A S4 no rerolls doesn't do a lot. Its not enough impact on tough units, and too much on weak units. The unit is tanky, but not THAT tanky. So it's either TH or bust.

Thing for me with purestrains is pre-game move: going 8", then 8+6+2d6 gives you massive T1 threat, and you can ideally use it defensively to position out of LoS for going 2nd (or bounce into reserves worst case). Maybe viable for similar out of a truck, but at that point it doesn't feel as needed. Otherwise yeah, TH only.

So, there is a REALLY good discord channel for GSC stuff - never knew.

...Huh, I thought I'd seen you there a while back (someone posted a list that was suspiciously like one of yours).

[kazetanade]

The strat helps ONE cast - which you also want for MfB, which is the most key spell. I don't really want to ds my Patty in their faces if they can deny me easily.

I'll have to test the PGS, won't get anywhere with that on theory crafting. Abbys theory craft well though so if a small unit works, that could be a middle board runner thing.

Straightforward still - Abbys go in on 2+ rerolling exploding 6s. PGS gets a moot +1 to hit, and the T1 reroll wounds, most likely. If the PGS do not take off, I'll probably RttS the Primus too to come out with the Neophytes (just checked RttS, can't be done if you didn't fight, so into Reserves he goes to begin with. PGS fights solo).

On T2 its self explanatory I think - drop the Neophytes out, drop the PGS, Abbys, in all different flanks or corners. Throw the unit of Cutters into something hard with +1A MfB.

T3 it's basically to see what's left, and score where able.

I want to do something with Clamavus and Nexos honestly, since the ability to 1: setup Action + Shoot on arrival is funny and 2: set up both Crossfire(and hence Exposed)for Flamers is a big deal. But nothing I think of atm is big impact enough. It also irks me that it only works on the entry turn for Nexos, or for stuff on the board. But right now I can't find points so...


pastebin.com/dQzngEC3

[kazetanade]

Never thought I'd get the chance to habe feedback and constructive comments from a nations top player... wow. First time I don't have to work kinks out the painful way.

So, a few things I've been spending all day thinking for a few days. GSC is really fragile - our most durable unit isn't durable unless we sink a quarter of an army into it. Not worth. Danny is using 2 units of bikes as a blocker to keep a central unit of Neos safe - that has to predicate Neos moving up to a safe point on T1, that requires an angle that is not so easy to get, can't get it with a majority of the enemy army, and when they can, they gotta shoot at bikes first.

I don't have this luxury - you guys reading have seen in my batreps the terrain won't support this type of play. Meaning, I have no way to get set up in midfield to score.

Now, back then I used to have this problem with Nids too. The answer became to steal theirs using Genestealer Sling, which worked, even if it was not easy due to peculiar zig zag wrap formations.

The difference is you could stay far out of range of most guns and still make it, back then. With gsc you cannot, and nothing in this codex can really hold for a turn vs the full might of melta and bolters or VVs just getting all choppy on you.

The second thing is that I don't have enough action monkeys. Might be me trying to stuff too much damage in there. But I can't get enough action guys to fill 4 RODS, at first.

The 3rd thing is that back in end 8th, I had a fair bit of success with deepstriking Neophyte flower blobs. But right at start of 9th, I got chewed out bad on those - smaller maps, easy access to intercept, and fast movement basically locks me into my own dep zone and space constraints are a problem. If I am going to run gsc, due to NML issues, a big part of it is safe DSing. I can't DS where I need to if I am getting heavily screened out. So I need something on the ground that reacts fast and let's me push them back a bit.

Enter The Purestrain. Fast and Deadly. Independently consistent. 5 guys kills 4 Primaris Marine bodies before MfB.

Enter the new Crossfire and Exposed rules. The new RRs missles are great for midfield and 2+ to wound is ace. Having one hidden and one from Strat Reserves would push T1 caution even if he goes first.

Enter. The Rockgrinder. The World's Cheapest Dreadnought. HSC gives you big threat, the melee gives you big threat. And if you somehow make it into 6", that demo charge will HURT.

I'm building without Grinders for now, but I wouldn't be surprised if they end up in the lists over time. If going vehicle heavy, 3 is good to end with. They're just that good. Only question is how to keep them going long enough, or without being wasted by melta before getting anything done. Also. I cannot believe 2 Grinders are cheaper than 3 RRs, which are only bigger consideration because they have access to a very unique weapons which has decent number of shots.

And because I have 6 RRsclainted and 0 Grinders painted.

On the whole though. RRs have slightly better ranged output but getting access to Raking Fire is their main draw, but I'd go heavy on Grinders before any RRs even though they have scout move, just because it's actually more efficient. Better T better W better Sv and melee.


Edit: the list.


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults - 2022) [100 PL, 10CP, 1,998pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Cult Creeds: Impassioned, Industrial Affinity

Detachment Command Cost

+ No Force Org Slot +

Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 80pts]

Sanctus [3 PL, 70pts]: Cult Sniper Rifle

+ HQ +

Acolyte Iconward [4 PL, 75pts]

Magus [5 PL, 105pts]: Familiar, Meditations in Shadow, Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Might From Beyond, Power: Psychic Stimulus, The Unwilling Orb

Primus [5 PL, 95pts]: Alien Majesty, Exacting Planner, Warlord

+ Troops +

Acolyte Hybrids [7 PL, 145pts]: Our Time is Nigh
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid: 5x Autopistol, 5x Blasting Charges, 5x Cult Claws and Knife, 5x Frag Grenades
. Acolyte Hybrid w/ Industrial Weapon: Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid w/ Industrial Weapon: Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid w/ Industrial Weapon: Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid w/ Industrial Weapon: Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cult Claws and Knife

Acolyte Hybrids [7 PL, 145pts]: A Trap Sprung
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid: 5x Autopistol, 5x Blasting Charges, 5x Cult Claws and Knife, 5x Frag Grenades
. Acolyte Hybrid w/ Industrial Weapon: Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid w/ Industrial Weapon: Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid w/ Industrial Weapon: Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid w/ Industrial Weapon: Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cult Claws and Knife

Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cult Claws and Knife, 4x Frag Grenades
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cult Claws and Knife

Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cult Claws and Knife, 4x Frag Grenades
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cult Claws and Knife

Neophyte Hybrids [8 PL, 180pts]
. 15x Neophyte Hybrid: 15x Autogun, 15x Autopistol, 15x Blasting Charges, 15x Frag Grenades
. Neophyte Hybrid wi/ Heavy Weapon: Seismic Cannon
. Neophyte Hybrid wi/ Heavy Weapon: Seismic Cannon
. Neophyte Hybrid wi/ Heavy Weapon: Seismic Cannon
. Neophyte Hybrid wi/ Heavy Weapon: Seismic Cannon
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun

Neophyte Hybrids [8 PL, 180pts]
. 15x Neophyte Hybrid: 15x Autogun, 15x Autopistol, 15x Blasting Charges, 15x Frag Grenades
. Neophyte Hybrid wi/ Heavy Weapon: Seismic Cannon
. Neophyte Hybrid wi/ Heavy Weapon: Seismic Cannon
. Neophyte Hybrid wi/ Heavy Weapon: Seismic Cannon
. Neophyte Hybrid wi/ Heavy Weapon: Seismic Cannon
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun

+ Elites +

Kelermorph [5 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: A Perfect Ambush, Gene-Sire's Gifts, Wyrmtooth Rounds

Nexos [3 PL, -1CP, 50pts]: Cranial Inlay, Gene-Sire's Gifts

Purestrain Genestealers [3 PL, 70pts]: 5x Purestrain Genestealer

Purestrain Genestealers [3 PL, 70pts]: 5x Purestrain Genestealer

+ Fast Attack +

Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 240pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Achilles Missile Launcher, Flare Launcher
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Achilles Missile Launcher, Flare Launcher
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Achilles Missile Launcher, Flare Launcher

Achilles Ridgerunners [13 PL, 250pts]: From Every Angle
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Achilles Missile Launcher, Flare Launcher
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Achilles Missile Launcher, Flare Launcher
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Achilles Missile Launcher, Flare Launcher

Atalan Jackals [4 PL, 58pts]: From Every Angle
. Atalan Jackal: Atalan Small Arms
. Atalan Jackal: Atalan Small Arms
. Atalan Jackal: Atalan Small Arms
. Atalan Leader: Atalan Small Arms

++ Total: [100 PL, 10CP, 1,998pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

[kazetanade]

Had what was probably my last Crusher Stampede game - testing out Haruspex and TG, with Voidrant.

TG did not impress me and I was not feeling it. 15A 4+ reroll was okay, but even on S10 was only forcing around 8 saves. It's not enough output for me to look at it and go "yes. This is good."

The expected problems with positioning was present too, although their durability wasn't tested, losing even 2 guys is a big hit to effective output and makes them borderline invisible. This isn't a unit I'd stake gameplans on, and only really has ap-3 going for it.

The Haruspex, in contrast, literally blew my mind. I got lucky no doubt in my first turn - 4++, rr wounds, Catalyst, Onslaught, aggression ALL got off on him. He took almost every buff in my army. But once he got into combat on that first turn, holy hell did he deliver. 7A base, before Rav Maw d3, turned into 14 SAVES, and thereafter into 5 dead Wraiths, and 5 more attacks with his huge Claws, which turned into 3 more dead Heavy Lokhust Destroyers. This could easily be the same thing for any other army that has a few units close together at once. This outperforms TG by a massive margin, and he's cheaper to boot for nearly same amount of wounds but tougher.

If you remove the TG, you can bring in a Maleceptor and either Ravs for easier obj action scoring (until Nachmund), or a bigger warrior squad with guns to help with anti-infantry. There's also resources to upgrade Voidrant into a Swordrant, while the Maleceptor takes the heat off the casting by a bit. The 2cp save me strat also exists here and works want well to keep both Haruspex and Barbed kicking a bit longer, even if I don't value that very much, it's also a source of reroll dmg that the Haruspex really wants since he has reroll hits n wounds in the package already.

[purestrain]

*Haruspex does its job*

*Extremely happy bug noises*

[kazetanade]

So, not my last game. My gsc is not ready so I get to run around with it for a bit. Got a game against a more aggressive BT list.

Major takeaways -

1. Haruspex swung. I paid for the amazing T1 last game with a horrid one this turn, failing d3A with a snake eyes peril into a snake eyes peril, failing reroll hits, perils on Catalyst, then the poor boy killing only a single Bike in combat. Thankfully the extra A made it through for 2 bikes.

2. Maleceptor still feels bad. His strat is good for probabilities, but I'd feel better taking something that outputs damage or scores me VP in his stead and accept those 1 or 2 extra 4s/3s that appear from it. So far it hasn't really made more than 1 wound in any given game its played, and that's not really worth 2cp. You'd need to be against a heavy gunline with ALOT of shots to make it work well.

3. The mini trans from BT, the invul, and the fact the same is in the GSC codex makes me think that the reroll 1s and 2s for HG wound is overweighting +1 to hit or the reroll damage. I rather have 3 more wounds to work with than to try my luck at rerolling a damage roll from 2 to 3, since it could become a 1 instead. If you have a platform giving them reroll hits, and you're not trying to abuse exploding hits on 2+ rerolling platform (maths works out as equal to without trying to abuse it, was it, No One ?)

Enter Nachmund, where the Lictor is now redundant. How do I continue to score RND in an army that's heavy on MC? Easy - Tervigon spawning Termagants. Termagants can easily handle RND in my own deployment fields, allowing the warriors to play far more aggressively than normal. It also gives the rr1s and 2s to wound I want for my HG. Take it with -1 wound and its really hard to kill even with dedicated.

I think this would be final or 2nd final list for this archetype, as without new info I don't think I can do any better to optimize obj scoring or survivability in a world vs Railguns, so it would only shift around how do I use mawlocs, Ravs, or Zoanthr9pes for better consistency.



----------------
HQ
-SL
-Swordrant
-Tervigon (WL: Swarm Leader)

Troops
- 1x5 Warrs
- 2x3 Warrs

Elite
- Haruspex
- 1x6 HG


HS
- Barbed Heiro
- Mawloc

Flyer
- Harpy

[piersonsmuppet]

HG w/ 2+ hits, rr hits, boom 6’s: 9.4 wounds on T5-7 & mini trans.

HG w/ 3+ hits, rr hits, rr 1/2 wounds: 9.5 wounds on T5-7 & mini trans. Lower variance than the above and no CP expenditure.

The only time Warrior Link outperforms Terv Link on HG is into T4 or less, and I think that has to also be without hit rr’s of any kind.

[purestrain]

All for the low low price of bringing a gimmick that will be faq'd in the next batch of them.

Don't rely on the gimmick!

[No One]

kazetanade said:

3. The mini trans from BT, the invul, and the fact the same is in the GSC codex makes me think that the reroll 1s and 2s for HG wound is overweighting +1 to hit or the reroll damage. I rather have 3 more wounds to work with than to try my luck at rerolling a damage roll from 2 to 3, since it could become a 1 instead. If you have a platform giving them reroll hits, and you're not trying to abuse exploding hits on 2+ rerolling platform (maths works out as equal to without trying to abuse it, was it, No One ?)

I mean, terv link has basically always been the best from a pure damage perspective. It just requires taking a 200 pt terv rather than a 50 pt warrior squad. And yes, rrs for 6s fishing only makes sense with prime link or stealers with warrior link: no change on average for HG.

Enter Nachmund, where the Lictor is now redundant. How do I continue to score RND in an army that's heavy on MC? Easy - Tervigon spawning Termagants. Termagants can easily handle RND in my own deployment fields, allowing the warriors to play far more aggressively than normal. It also gives the rr1s and 2s to wound I want for my HG. Take it with -1 wound and its really hard to kill even with dedicated.

Personally the answer I've been thinking about is 'you don't', try to take MI, sometimes banners, and otherwise just accept the fact you're more reliant on kill secondaries. Building for RND (outside GSC) seems not worth the effort.

[kazetanade]

Whats MI supposed to be again? No One

As GSC I see them talking about not even taking RND. Just straight up teleport homer + BEL. Honestly not sure how I feel about it, but it sounds like it has legs. As CS though, I can't really think of anything better, unless you wanna take a risk on our progressive scoring kill obj or the mission one, which I have no idea how it looks.

Its also a question of what damage/scoring can I bring for that 230pts or so, which amounts to like a Scythed Heiro alongside your Haruspex. It's damage is ok, I just want very reliable HG and Tervigon is just not worth running in non CS IMO.

Kill secondaries always scores low. If I can't bring a Terv for her gaunts, I'll find some other way to score a consistent obj that doesn't rely on my enemy skewing in some weird fashion.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Whats MI supposed to be again? No One

Mental interrogation.

As GSC I see them talking about not even taking RND. Just straight up teleport homer + BEL. Honestly not sure how I feel about it, but it sounds like it has legs.

I've thought about it: it seems solid as a flex pick idea based on match up/mission, but bad as your primary strategy. RttS not putting you underground gives you only 2 consistent turns, and that's just not good enough over just RND+engage/strangle

Kill secondaries always scores low. If I can't bring a Terv for her gaunts, I'll find some other way to score a consistent obj that doesn't rely on my enemy skewing in some weird fashion.

I'm also including grind/TTL in that, and with buffs to NP (and BiD, though I don't think that's super relevant) they're not bad. But yeah, not consistently good and lack of locked secondaries sucks. Just...the alternatives seem to suck more.

[piersonsmuppet]

MI is going to be money in GT 2022, especially for the mission which CP gen relies on the WL being on table (embarked might be a roadblock though). Personally, I take Void Crown and a Zoan Link in most lists for GT 2021 since Warp Ritual and MI were some of our easier secondaries. I usually took WR more because of the LoS restrictions on MI, but for 2022 I see myself planning on MI every game and swapping to WR only if the opponent's army looks rough to score MI (most/all characters in DS/Transports and looking to suicide).

[niiai]

Jan 24, 2022 18:27:28 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

MI is going to be money in GT 2022, especially for the mission which CP gen relies on the WL being on table (embarked might be a roadblock though). Personally, I take Void Crown and a Zoan Link in most lists for GT 2021 since Warp Ritual and MI were some of our easier secondaries. I usually took WR more because of the LoS restrictions on MI, but for 2022 I see myself planning on MI every game and swapping to WR only if the opponent's army looks rough to score MI (most/all characters in DS/Transports and looking to suicide).

Do you want to elaborate? I am not that good with all the anriviations and the new 2022 missions.

[randychaz]

Hello,

I'm currently getting back into 8th after 4 years and looking to build a crusher stampede list. I love OOE for his buff to other fex in combat and so was going to use your carnifex stampede list as a basis. I see you use dakka fex, so I was just wondering why take dakka fex with OOE, are their base attacks really that good without melee weapons? Or is OOE still just that good on his own?

Also, in your CS list, you have a mawloc, I always preferred the trygon (or trygon prime) and I was wondering if I'm missing something on the mawloc? Or if it's just preference?

If this has already been covered previously I apologise, but at 26 pages and 5 years worth of Q & A to go through I figured it'd be easier to just ask again.

[kazetanade]

Feb 8, 2022 12:07:00 GMT randychaz said:

Hello,

I'm currently getting back into 8th after 4 years and looking to build a crusher stampede list. I love OOE for his buff to other fex in combat and so was going to use your carnifex stampede list as a basis. I see you use dakka fex, so I was just wondering why take dakka fex with OOE, are their base attacks really that good without melee weapons? Or is OOE still just that good on his own?

Also, in your CS list, you have a mawloc, I always preferred the trygon (or trygon prime) and I was wondering if I'm missing something on the mawloc? Or if it's just preference?

If this has already been covered previously I apologise, but at 26 pages and 5 years worth of Q & A to go through I figured it'd be easier to just ask again.

No worries - a lot of the Q&A is outdated and obsolete as well, so asking is good.

The Carnifex Stampede is an old archetype - the CS rules that come out haven't changed anything. Melee Fexes just do not have enough flexibility to deal with various threats on the board (they can only deal with elite infantry due to lack of S, lack of rerolls, lack of A, and also bounce horrendously off invuls), and can't engage the enemy until they reach combat- 2-3 turns into the game, which will have the first 2 turns wasted and just eating fire.

On that note, Shooty Fexes work better than before because they can now shoot into combat, rendering them not helpless when tagged, and suffer no penalties for assault guns.

The problem with pure shooty Fexes is that their output is NOT stellar. They're decent support guns but are expensive for output, so you need something to make plays and pump decisive damage, while the Fexes as your backbone will clean up and sit in places.

As for the Mawloc, it does MWs on arrival and can arrive within 3" - as a GSC player, I recognize and value 3" arrival as it helps sets up objective steals while doing some chip mortals. The Trygon and Trygon prime does not do this, and relies on a 8-9" charge to get stuck in, very fallible. The Harpy does this role better, but the mawloc is safer and cheaper, for this version I needed it cheaper.