Kaze's Theorycrafting Station [Nids Gorgon Gaunts]

[No One]

kazetanade said:

and a suicide Broodlord that can carry Adaptive Lobe

Don't think adaptive lobe is a 2 CP relic: under ideal circumstances it almost certainly pays for itself and is likely to go positive on CP. But that's ideal circumstances: if you die (BL), run into a low CP opponent, they spend almost all of their CP T1 and 2 and you get your CP for those rounds but no further etc, just feels quite unlikely to actually come ahead.

It gives me 8d3 HVC shots, and 36 Deathspitter shots before the Warriors' mini version, and 2 aggressive Flyrants (Assassin gets 2d3 extra attacks to make up for weaker ap, Hulkrant is just Hulkrant since he doesnt get anything THAT useful from WLTs that are stackable), and a suicide Broodlord that can carry Adaptive Lobe. smaller cannons and extra bodies can be dropped to get a pair of lictors to still do actions.

Fex output and defence seems to still be not quite there: lets you spread nicely, but don't think it's enough to close anything out.

[piersonsmuppet]

Does the AC tyrant have a relic? If not, I would think that ignoring invuls would do more than Lobe. If it does, I agree that Lobe is a poor relic for 2 CP.

Alternative take; what are your thoughts on a Hulkrant running +d3A WLT and Size, and a second Tyrant running Void Crown with all 3 CS powers? Crown Tyrant has some gas if running TG in CS and you want all CS powers w/o overloading on psykers.

[kazetanade]

So not as busy as I thought I'd be!

AC Flyrant needs a better name, but he's an assassin that can take down characters since he ignores invulns - he must have that relic. I would swap Hulkrant for the assassin every time, if he can have the WLTs.

Dakka Fexes have been and always will be "complimentary damage" - they are not in themselves game closers or army wipe damage, but represent a relatively durable backbone of consistent damage that takes time and effort to whittle away. Having 6 as a base works to encourage overload of bodies that can pseudo score, and gives a baseline performance that isn't taken out by a pair of rail rifles (or other singular source of anti-tank that can demolish TFexes and Dules).

- on a side note, I think lists with 3 will be more balanced and flexible, esp if you're wanting to or are running HG/TG leviathan shenanigans, and still work for MTO. This is obviously a no HG list -

The question is what do you pair with complimentary damage to take the initiative, and close the game?

Right now I'm thinking this:

-SL
-AC Flyrant
-9x Warriors BS/DS
-Haruspex w/Size
-6 Dakkafexes HVC/DS
-Harpy
- 3x Rav and Lictor for scoring


The Haruspex and AC Flyrant represents melee threats that can be thrown in to be a hassle to deal with and kill front lining. Dakkafexes overwhelm few vehicles well, and can chip or remove weak infantry easily. The big warrior blob can tangle with elites relatively well. The entire army tussles for obj control, while ravs and lictors just sort of pop up and do stuff in quarters while it still works.

Once we cross into Nachmund... its going to be tough to score with this list. EoAF is the only real pick, as RND is not doable in this army style, nor is BEL, possibly leaving Banners and Grind/TTL as your only options.

[piersonsmuppet]

I think 6 Fexes aren’t necessarily needed. All other monsters are higher pri, so the heavy redundancy isn’t that beneficial. I think 3x Fex and 2x Harpy w/ VC is a better distribution. I see Harpy as prob Pri1 with SL/Tyrant hidden. As in the other thread, I think Pyrovores could add a lot to the list. 1-2 in conjunction with, or instead of, the Ravs would give a good amount of action bodies and anti-chaff/light infantry.

Side note: Do you Fexes have Spores/ES? Those 20 pts adds another effective Fex every 3 models (so a “4th” Fex for 60 pts).

[kazetanade]

The Fexes have ES SC, so in essence I am putting the equivalent of 8 Fexes on the board.

If I was doing 3 Fexes, I wouldn't treat them as list backbone - you can slot 3 Fexes in as a shooty wing rather easily, but you'd want to build the list with somewhat different considerations. You may also want to retain TLDs or TLDSs instead of HVC too, and carry anti-tank elsewhere, or run hybrids to be self-sufficient. But for now, 6 Fexes will be there.

2 Harpies I'm unsure - having an extra is good definitely, as a savy opponent may go after them first. But more often than not, its definitely the Fexes that will get focused first, as they are being "spammed" and will look like the main shooting threat. The real threat is actually in the Haruspex or AC that will go in and mess stuff up when they aren't looking right, while the Harpy is a surprising troublesome extra if it doesn't get focused down. Bring 2 feels OK, but not optimized, especially if you miss the kill and they get stuck in combat.




Ref other thread about TG and Haruspex - Flyrant needs to be geared as a Crownrant instead of a Hulkrant, so I'd put guns on it to just better support the army. That gives us access to 3 reroll sources at once,with options how to split. Sadly, I canot balance the list down to get a Broodlord instead of the Malanthrope, due to unbalanced MC:INFANTRY, unless we downgrade the Barbed to an Exocrene and bring a cheap monster.

[purestrain]

I haven't tried it and I know I'm insane for blowing literally half my cp before the game even starts, but I don't do much comp, and my field of friends that play is getting smaller so I just play what I feel.

Three walkrants talons/hvc invulnsword/hvc mrc/hvc, three warrior squads (one kitted hardcore) two 3 man carnifex, half spitter/hvc other half devs/hvc (all have ES SC) and an exocrine.

Relics up the wahoo, enhanced resistance AND the rapid adaptation strat, main thought of the force is slow movement forward while attempting total annihilation of anything heavy first with the myriad of HVC, then overwhleming firepower on the other things.

Don't expect huge results, but it seems fun to me

[kazetanade]

Flyrants or bust for me, and I'd always pref Double Flyrant + SL in which case. Flyrants are SL's bodyguards because why not?

Anyway, just a bit of math for Haruspex vs OOE:


Haruspex gets +d3A, Murder Size on the Shovel Claws, and Leviathan's exploding 6s. Gets +1 hit from Warriors, reroll Hits from *somewhere* and rr wounds from Voracious

4A, average of +2A, so 6A. 6A, d3 hit rolls, average of 2, 12A.
12A, 3+ rr all; 8H, 2x6s for 2 extra. Total of 10H. 4rr, 2 hits. Total, 12H.
OR
6A, 3+rr all; 4H, 1x6s for 1 extra. Total of 5H. 2rr, 1 hit. Total 6H.

Against BGV-
12H, S8 vs T4 (TRANSHUMAN); 4+ to wound, 6W. Reroll 6W, +3W. Total, 9W
9W, 2+4++; 4.5F(round to 4). d3+1, average 3. so 4 dead BGV.
+4A, assume 3 hits, 2 more wound, 1 more fail, 5 BGV dead.

Against Terminators-
12H, S8 vs T4; 2+ to wound, 10W. Reroll 2W, +2W, total 12W
12W, 1+4++; 4F. d3+1, average 3, so 4 dead Terminators.
Repeat as above, 5 Terminators dead.

Against Custodes-
12H, S8 vs T5; 3+ to wound. 8W. Reroll 4W, +2W, total 10W.
10W, 2+5++; 5F. d3+1, average 3, so 5 dead Custodes.
Slightly Better than Above, 6 Dead Custodes.

Against Buggies-
12H, S8 vs T6; 3+ to wound. 8W. Reroll 4W, +2W, total 10W.
10W, 4+5++; 6F. d3+1, average 3, no -1D, 2 dead buggies.
OR
6H, S14 vs T6; 2+ to wound. 5W, reroll 1W, +1W, total 6W.
6W, 4+5++; 4F. d6+1, average 4.5, no -1D, 2 dead buggies.

Against THICC-
12H, S8 vs T7; 3+ to wound. 8W. Reroll 4W, +2, total 10W.
10W, 3+5++5+++; 6F. d3+1, average 3, -1D, 5+++; 1 dead Thicc, 1x2 damaged Thicc.
OR
6H, S14 vs T7; 2+ to wound. Basically 6W.
6W, 3+5++5+++; 4F. d6+1, average 4.5, -1D, 5+++; at best 2 dead thicc. Most likely 1 dead Thicc, 1 heavily injured.

Against KILLRIG
12H, S8 vs T8; 4+ to wound. 6W. Reroll 6W, +3, total 9W.
9W, 5+6++6+++ 8F. d3+1, average 3, -1D. 6+++; 14W dealt to Killrig
OR
6H, S14 vs T8; 3+ to wound. 4W, reroll 2W, +1, total 5W.
5W, 5+6++6+++ 4-5F. d6+1, average 4.5, -1D, 6+++; 12-15.5W dealt to Killrig (?)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for OOE, gets +d3A, reroll hits from spell, reroll wounds from Voracious. Gets exploding 6s from Leviathan strategem, then +2 to hit, and exploding 5s for A innate.
5A, +d3 average 2, 7A.

7A, 2+ to hit rerolling. 6H, 1x6s for 7H; 2x5+ for extra 2A. Keep 5+ only; 5H+1A rerolled. 5H again, 1x6s again for +1H, and 2x5+ for extra 2A. So far, 9H.
Another 4A, 2+ rerolling. 4A, just assming that 1 6s when rerolled, so total of 14A.

Vs BGV-
14H, S14 vs T4(TRANSHUMAN); 4+ to wound, 7W. Reroll 7W, +3W. Total, 10W
10W, 2+4++; 5F.3 damage, so 5 dead BGV.

Vs Terminators-
14H, S14 vs T4; 2+ to wound, basically 14W.
14W, 1+ 4++; 7F. 3D, so 7 dead Terminators (unit wipe)


Vs Custodes-
Basically Same as Terminators or worse

Vs Buggies-
14H, S14 vs T6; 2+ to wound, basically 14W.
14W, 4+5++; 9F. 3D, so 3 dead Buggies(!!!!!!!!!).

Vs Thicc-
14H, S14 vs T7, basically 14W.
14W, 3+5++5+++; 9F. 3D, -1D, 5+++, 1 dead Thicc and 1 nearly dead Thicc

Vs KILLRIG-
14H, S14 vs T8, 3+ to wound; 9W. reroll 5W, +3W, total 12W.
12W, 5+6++6+++; 10F. 3D, -1D, 6+++, total 17W to Killrig.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basically, OOE does everything the Haruspex might do, except better. The only condition in which the Haruspex might be better is when it can receive the benefit of the CS strategem which gives +1 hit +1 wound +1D on top of the +1D from Murderous, giving it an average of 4D against vehicles - which is niche and only going to appear if you fight in a vehicle meta. OOE is also less than 12W so it uses Unbreakable Chitin extremely well as a duelist, making it an extremely annoying and deadly missle; at least for that first turn it manages to make combat.

By extension, OOE should outpace the Toxicrene as a damage dealer, considering it's main draw is the fallback strategem. with 6A + d3(average 2)A, so 8A, it can reach near the level of the Haruspex in terms of damage and also prevent things from falling back - but the Toxicrene should be the lowest damage monster in the considered brackets, and I'd class it the same catagory as a Harpy - which is amusing as it's almost the same price.

The Dima we can extrapolate from the Haruspex when using its alternative profile, and just improve - but generally I think the trend holds steady that the DImachaeron is good for killing other vehicles and is comparable to OOE when taking on Dreadnoughts and other such vehicles, but remains somewhat weak for taking out elites. with 8A instead of 6, it should kill 2.5 Thicc (8A, 6H, 5W, 4F, so 2 Thiccs, can be improved with the +1 to hit for 2+ rerolling and exploding 6s giving us more hits/wounds/fails). With that in mind, if terrain enables it, I'd bring a Dimachaeron over the other monsters in addition to SL, OOE and an AC Flyrant, that should fulfill most if not all of your melee needs.

Putting it into my Carnifex list, we get something like:

HQ
- OOE
- SL
- AC Flyrant: Wings, Deathspitter, Bonesword, AG, TS,; WLT - Rampaging Beast, Gestalt Commander, ADPT - Murderous Size, RLC - Synaptic Blades

Troops
- 2x3 Min Warriors
- 1x5 Min Warriors

Elites
- Lictor

FA
- 1x3 Raveners
- Dimachaeron

HS
- 4x Carnifexen: TLD/HVC

Flyer
- 1x Harpy: HVC

We can swap Gestalt Commander for x2 table on Dima, which may make more sense. The strategy runs pretty straightforward - the Carnifexen walk up into the midfield, the Dimachaeron looks big and nasty and scary to draw fire from the Carnifexen/SL, make them work around to get to the Dima to shoot it, then jump on them with the AC or OOE.

With the lack of shooting from HG or Barbed, I can say that the list isnt as consistent or as flexible as I'd like. If we swap out the Dimachaeron for 2 more Carnifexen, I think the fire base is enough to get basic things done, but your melee then becomes a lot more valuable and difficult to waste/trade. We can also swap Ravs for a lictor instead, but I had some points limitation in the begining hence why they found their way in. Ideally, without double shooting HG to make up a more solid foundation for shooting, the list actually has to perform very well in melee, or have enough guns to compensate for the lack of HG.

I might just go with this 6 Fex concept without the Dima to try this weekend and work backwards from there. The Dima is pretty clear cut to me how that would go, I dont feel like much testing is needed for it.

[kazetanade]

Both new lists are up on first page - also, have decided a name for the Assassin Flyrant - it is now a Swordrant. Because naming conventions are NOT my strong suite. Might as well push the envelope and give another dumb name for a support character: the Voidrant! It was that, or Crownrant, and I went with the possibly more cringey one.

I'm actually quite hype over OOE, because he was one of my favourite units to work with prior to Nids' decline. The fact that CS breathes some new life into him, and his ilk, is of much interest to me, and something I would like to try and make work. I've played 9 Carnifexen lists in the past to much amusement (but not enough dakka), so I feel like 6 is the sweet spot between overcommitting and slightly unhinged. Seriously, if you want a more competitive list, I think just run 3 with HG based lists, gives you a really strong shooting base. Esp if you've got HG in Kronos, then 2 more warriors to buff the Fexes, so much 2+ to hit everywhere. Carnifexen wouldnt be playable outside of AoR though, sadly.

[niiai]

Wow. Just jumped into this thread. And I must say I like your energy!

How are the carnifex lists looking? I have 5 carnifexes myself.

1x Old one eye
2 x dakkafexes (enchanted sences, 2x devourers, spore cyst)
2 x carnifexes with 1 deathspitter, heavy venom cannon, en hated sences and devouer

I would like to get 2 more and have fun with them. But I never play them. I just dipped my toes into nids again because I like the look of this new crusher stampede rules. I have been on a hiatus with GSC and SW.

How does the carnifexes perform? Any good? How would a minimum scything Tallon one perform?

[kazetanade]

Jan 6, 2022 14:55:01 GMT niiai said:

Wow. Just jumped into this thread. And I must say I like your energy!

How are the carnifex lists looking? I have 5 carnifexes myself.

1x Old one eye
2 x dakkafexes (enchanted sences, 2x devourers, spore cyst)
2 x carnifexes with 1 deathspitter, heavy venom cannon, en hated sences and devouer

I would like to get 2 more and have fun with them. But I never play them. I just dipped my toes into nids again because I like the look of this new crusher stampede rules. I have been on a hiatus with GSC and SW.

How does the carnifexes perform? Any good? How would a minimum scything Tallon one perform?

I havent played the melee Carnifexen before - I've never liked them conceptually on the table, even if they look cool. They move too slow and have too few attacks for it to be good last edition, and that was when they could get 2+ to hit. This edition they're borderline terribad, IMO. 

On the flip side, the shooty type do OK because they'll chip and do damage, and take just as much effort to remove, but only cost a bit more. They'll be contributing right from turn 1. The impact you feel is much different in those kinds of scenarios. 

My gutfeel is that if you really wanted to run them melee, you'd have to run a possy of 3; and ideally with OOE in there as well as someone who actually gets anything done. OOE can get up to 14 hits on the charge and adequately supported, so even if the other 3 Carnifexen only serve as bodyguards, and absorbed a lot of the enemy's anti-tank shooting, they've basically done their jobs. But they will not be contributing towards the game at all in any way other than soaking damage, so you will always feel like you are a little behind your opponent (unless you can score VP on your way up). 

Conceptually though, Carnifexen lists are definitely a Tier 2 or below list - they dont do great deals of damage on average rolls, and take awhile to chip away at the enemy. If you are able to leverage them with other sources of decent damage, they are great support pieces that are self sufficient - basically let them roam around, push/screen/stand on objectives for you, and shoot to chip, while the Exo/HG/Barbed outputs the consisent and fearsome ranged damage that Nids are starting to be feared for, or to help setup a charge for the melee monsters. And again, I really wouldnt play them outside of a CS list, since the 5++ and the -1D are extremely big reasons why it and they works.

[kazetanade]

I am going so ga ga for these gsc new rules. I think I managed to craft a 3 wave crash with possibly enough easy to hide ground elements. The only issue I'll have is probably- if I want to use scout move as a fixed part of my plan or forgo it for blips, because I don't have much else that can sit out there like this.

The Nexos is, I have to say, something I completely did not expect to work well. He makes multi-prong Deepstrike effects work like a charm, and in Pauper, can create a beautiful situation where you have several instances of uninterruptable 2+ to hit rr1s to hit, then 2+/3+ to wound rr1s to wound, right across the map. Abominant not required for that Abby unit across the map (but Primus needs that upgrade and once a game only). We can mimic the same using Metamorphs, just not for 3D.
Alternatively, we can have up to 60 Fearless bodies dropped right out of deepstrike - not insignificant, esp when they *all have a 5++ and regen models.* thank god there is no fnp involved there like before, I prefer it this way. Just feels like the Iconward needs a bit more to him to be a value pick.

I had misread the Biophagus. I thought his was +1A/+1ap/5+++ options. Its apparently +1ap/exploding 6s/5+++. All of these are usable for their intended targets of melee (Necron buff guy take some fking notes), but they're less impactful as I'd originally thought. In Paupers it might be ok to run them with that 2+ reroll all exploding 6s, since they require absolutely no more support. As ap-2, they could actually use ap-3 as well - and from a "missle" standpoint, consistent ap when required and higher potential of damage *might* be better than the otherwise autopick 5+++.

The general focus of "Core" really pushes the focus onto Acolytes and Metamorphs. While Abbys can put in some good work, I feel extremely heavily pushed in this direction. And also of somewhat amazing value - Nexos passes *all* the auras of the character over to the guy on the other side of the map. So with a nexos with his relic, and Pauper relic on the Primus, you can have 3 CORE units with rr1s to hit and wound, who also get a 5++ for free. Whether this is preferable, or a fighter Primus is preferable, I'm not sure yet.

I'm around 100-200pts off but here's a quick idea:
Paupers Batt
HQ
Patty, Primus, with psyker and Primus buffs. WLTs for damage and aura respectively. Relics is and reliquary respectively only.

Patty on table, Primus in DS.

Troops
2x20 Neos with Seismic, one with Perfect Ambush the other has Excavator and uses Dig Them Out if need be
3x5 Acos with Flamers

All troops in DS

Elites
1x5 Abbys with Time is Nigh
1x1 Abom with Shadowstalker wlt and Voidwyrm relic
1x Biophagus with Familiar, upgraded
1x Nexos with relic for 2x buff and cp
1x Clamavus
1x Kellermorph
1x10 Metamorphs with Trap is Sprung
1x10 PGS with Came From Below

FA
2x3 Jackals with upgrades and bomb
1x3 Ridgerunners with Lascanbons or Missles

HS
1x Rockgrinder with From Every Angle

Gameplan is simple- try to leverage T1 to get the Grinder into the enemy's flank ASAP, and use that positioning to claim Exposed on enemies and trigger Raking Fire off that. PGS makes a mad dash or just chills into reserves for later.

On T2 the Neophytes drop in with the Abby and Abom coming out. Either the PGS or the Metas drop out here, the other stays in for awhile longer.

On T3 drop the remaining melee that and re-assess the situation from there. But off my quick maths, it should have been pretty heavy damage and we should have taken over the board for the most part, but the guys need to savour the success of the plan.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

The Nexos is, I have to say, something I completely did not expect to work well. He makes multi-prong Deepstrike effects work like a charm, and in Pauper, can create a beautiful situation where you have several instances of uninterruptable 2+ to hit rr1s to hit, then 2+/3+ to wound rr1s to wound, right across the map. Abominant not required for that Abby unit across the map (but Primus needs that upgrade and once a game only). We can mimic the same using Metamorphs, just not for 3D.

Eh? Nexos needs to pick a <core> unit on the battlefield in command phase, so not seeing how it helps DS and can't do anything to abbies ever.

1x1 Abom with Shadowstalker wlt and Voidwyrm relic

Only HQs can have WLT

[purestrain]

Jan 11, 2022 5:13:41 GMT No One said:

kazetanade said:

The Nexos is, I have to say, something I completely did not expect to work well. He makes multi-prong Deepstrike effects work like a charm, and in Pauper, can create a beautiful situation where you have several instances of uninterruptable 2+ to hit rr1s to hit, then 2+/3+ to wound rr1s to wound, right across the map. Abominant not required for that Abby unit across the map (but Primus needs that upgrade and once a game only). We can mimic the same using Metamorphs, just not for 3D.

Eh? Nexos needs to pick a <core> unit on the battlefield in command phase, so not seeing how it helps DS and can't do anything to abbies ever.

1x1 Abom with Shadowstalker wlt and Voidwyrm relic

Only HQs can have WLT

Units that have abilites that work in the command phase can use them the first time they come from underground

[kazetanade]

No One yea basically on the turn he comes in, he can extend his ability to someone else who also just came in.

The WLT can be dropped, it's not core to strategy.

If playing Paupers, might exchange PGS for something else, since they don't get the major buff they need to do best work (list started as Helix).

Edit: oh. Nexos can't target Abbies. Also just saw nexos can't copy, only make them an eligible target. I might keep the nexos for reliquary only + rr1s, but value severely decrease.

[kazetanade]

So, there is a REALLY good discord channel for GSC stuff - never knew. Love it. Makes me wanna start from scratch.


Since Paupers main shenanigan to try is this 20 miles away invul + rr1s + rr1s which was supposed to be given to Abbies, or Metamorphs, can only only be given to Metas, less keen on it now. Also because I cannot do the alternative Fearless 60 bodies, I'm just not taking the bait, and moving to something else.

Off the cuff I'm thinking of TH, for that S5 PGS - 40A S4 no rerolls doesn't do a lot. Its not enough impact on tough units, and too much on weak units. The unit is tanky, but not THAT tanky. So it's either TH or bust.

The TH seems... like it could be good. Decent power. Decent wlt, can debate over the bioform one. Doesn't do much for Abbys, even if there's a weak strategem for them, just makes them more flexible in the "just in case" dept where we need to kill... 150 gaunts? Or lots of Haemoxytes.

Gets basic Acos up to S5 too. But I wouldn't be charging them most of the time. So really the main benefactors are PGS here as they have access to no other real buffs other than TH creed and spells. And on that front, there's another issue - getting a psyker in range to cast both powers, which means wasting either +1A, or exploding 6s.

Ultimately i do not see getting that much out of TH even if we went in on PGS and Abbies - guns are something we received a lot of buffs over and nothing here offers anything there. There is probably something here but I'll come back to it another day.

The discord explores the custom cult of Agile + Industrial Affinity + Convoy, is really interesting. I think there might be something here for vehicles, Grinders and RRs, with units of Bikes, as the floor anvils. Then Abbies and Acolytes as the hammer.