Kaze's Theorycrafting Station [Nids Gorgon Gaunts]

[kazetanade]

Hoping to use this place as a stage for both list collection, test projects, and discussions for anyone keen to read and critique/discuss.

Probably keep the first post for current trials and 2nd post for finished products.

Also, clean up for 9th Edition.


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Current test: V2.3 Necron Wraiths and Destroyers 2k

SPOILER: Click to show

Detachment: Eternal/Expansionists Patrol

No Slot
Plasmacyte
Cryptothralls

HQs
1 x Anrakyr the Traveller (WL)
1 x Technomancer: FSO, CCN, WLT: Thrall of SK, RLC - Voltaic Staff

Troops
1 x 5 Immortals: Gauss

Elites
1 x 6 Skorpekh Destroyers

Fast Attack
1 x 6 Wraiths: Claws
1 x 6 Wraiths: Whips

Detachment: Eternal/Expansionist Spearhead

No Slot
Cryptothralls

HQs
1 x Chronomancer: Entropic Lance, HMA


Elites
1 x 1 Triarch Stalker

Heavy Support
3 x 1 DDA
1 x 1 Tesseract Ark


++ Total: [2000pts] ++

Changelog:
V1.2 - Removed Orikan and Scarabs, added Technomancer + Flayed Ones, ditched Obsec for Novokh damage output.
V2.3 - Removed the original C'Tans from list to make space for new Destroyer models. Shooting destroyers eventually phased out due to lack of performance, moving into mobile vehicular guns. Entire detachment was moved into mono-dynasty to leverage on a turn of S8/S6 on the Wraiths to tackle Ramshackle. Obsec/Move for obvious reasons. Originally trying to leverage shooty Destroyers, but moved to DDA. Flayed Ones replaced with Cryptothralls and 5 man Immortals. More thoughts: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/post/1003327/thread

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Current test: V3.2 Nids "Toolbox" 2k

SPOILER: Click to show

Detachment: Leviathan Battalion

HQs
1 x Swarmlord: Catalyst, Onslaught
1 x Tyranid Prime(WL): ScyTal, Devs, S.Link- Unchecked Ferocity, WLT- Swarm Leader, WLT2- Strategic Adaptation, RLC - Adaptive Neural Lobe


Troops
1 x 30 Termagants: devourers
2 x 16 Genestealers: Acid Maw, Scything Talons
1 x 3 Warriors: Scytal, LWBS, S.Link - Bioweapon Bond

Elites
2 x Lictor
1 x 6 ImpGuards


Fast Attack
2 x 10 Gargoyles


Detachment: Kronos Patrol

HQs
1 x Neurothrope: Symbiostorm


Troops
1 x 3 Warriors: Scytal, LWBS, S.Link - Bioweapon Bond

Heavy Support
1 x Barbed Heirodule: ADPT - Dermic Symbiosis

++ Total: [2000pts] ++

Changelog
v1.1 - Dimachaerons removed due to Flier proliferation. Genestealers brought back in for some anti-invul tools. Kronos removed to reduce tax and save cp. Moving to Behemoth to gain access to Unendying Hunger + SOT, and more defensive/ cagey play vs hyper aggression. Barbed brought in to balance melee + shooting (and because Exocrene just needs Kronos to be an all-star). Xenogenic being used as a "potential" answer to Invul units/Characters for testing.

v3.2 - Many changes happened due to Octarius - entire list rewrite. Main change from 3.1 to 3.2: Removing 25 Hormagants as obsolete, Bringing back 2x10 Gargs for Objective stealing reasons, exchanging slot for HG/Barbed to better leverage tools available. May need to find a way to include AC Flyrant for the full "Toolbox" approach.

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Current test: V2.2 Nids "Crusher Mixer" Leviathan 2k

SPOILER: Click to show

Detachment: Leviathan Battalion

No Slot
HQs
1 x Voidrant: AG, Wings, HVC, DSwSM, RLC - Void Crown; SPELLS - Synaptic Barrier, Aggressive Surge, Infused Energy
1 x Swarmlord: Catalyst, Onslaught
1 x Malanthrope (WL): WLT - Swarm Leader, RLC - Neural Adaptive Lobe


Troops
1 x 3 Warriors: LWBS/Scytal, S.Lk - Bioweapon Bond
2 x 3 Warriors: Scytals, 1 guy LWBS/Scytal, S.Lk - Bioweapon Bond

Elites
1 x 6 ImpGuards
1 x 5 Tyrant Guards: AG, Crushing Claws, ADPT - Enhanced Resistance
1 x 1 Lictor
1 x Haruspex: ADPT - Murderous Size

[/i]

Heavy Support
1 x Barbed Heirodule

Flier
1 x Harpy: HVC

++ Total: [2000pts] ++
[/spoiler]

Changelog
v1.0 - main items are the 4x Zoanthropes instead of a bigger unit to let Warriors be 5 man and get an extra lictor out. Flyrant had to drop to MBS/MRC in order to stay below Zoanthropes for TTL to go on Zoey/HG/Barbed
v2.1 - complete rewrite from the Army of Renown leaks - moving from utility based to more "Nidzilla" and leveraging newfound passive durability to push monsters on the board and kill the enemy ("Defensive"/sarcasm). NGL I hate how Lictors mess with points uniformity.
v2.2 - dropped the "defensive" shenanigans. Dropped a Harpy to take a Haruspex for more melee pressure. Flyrant changed to a caster "Voidrant" to get access to all CS spells. Preferably to change Malan into Broodlord w/ Link (and hence Voidrant into "Swordrant: Boneswords"/ "Hulkrant: Biomorphic Carapace"), if MC:INFANTRY can be balanced, but have yet to figure out how.
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Current test: V1.0 Nids Carnifex Stampede 2k

SPOILER: Click to show

Detachment: Leviathan Battalion

No Slot
HQs
1 x Swordrant(WL): AG, TS, Wings, HVC, MBS RLC - Synaptic Hive Blades, ADPT - Murderous Size, WLT - Rampaging Beast

[/b]
1 x Swarmlord
1 x Old One Eye


Troops
2x 3 Warriors: Scytal, S.Lk - Bioweapon Bond
1x 4 Warroprs: LWBS/Scytal, AG, S.Lk - Bioweapon Bond

Elites
2 x 1 Lictor

Heavy Support
3 x 2 Carnifexen: ES, SC, HVC, DSwSM

Flier
1 x Harpy: HVC

++ Total: [2000pts] ++
[/spoiler]

Changelog
v1.0 - Original List: Carnifex Stampede, baby!
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[kazetanade]

2nd post reserved for:


1. Finished Lists
2. Final Thoughts


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[harleyxjguy]

Skimmed near the end a little so this may already be covered.

Why do you like the Scythes of Teran so much?

[kazetanade]

removed for redundancy

[harleyxjguy]

If losing TL hurt with 12 Dev shots why do you think it would be better with D3 shots?

Honest question since I want hybrid Fex to work.

[kazetanade]

Dec 8, 2017 21:50:31 GMT harleyxjguy said:

If losing TL hurt with 12 Dev shots why do you think it would be better with D3 shots?

Honest question since I want hybrid Fex to work.

Because HVC wound things on a 2+ to 3+, as opposed to 3+ to 5+, and also has -2AP making marines primaris and bikes suffer much worser saves, makes warriors need to roll 6s and denies a save to flak jackets like Abberrants, and also instant kills most multi-wound infantry not a Character.

I shoot less but i need less shots to connect as well - the shots that do connect would have done a lot more than the stray Dev shots, against a wider variety of targets. Devs just wreck T3 5+ and below rather completely.

That's not to say Devs are bad. If you ran 72 shots instead of 36 shots, your results are way different - they'd be wrecking ball monster. That's just how the Dev variance work. You can refer to mattblowers leviathan Dev spam for reference.

Edit: list building considerations are different at 1k too. Wrap is less prevalent because its such a tight squeeze to bring everything usefil you need - devs arent as necessary as in 2k where wrap needs to be removed ASAP.

[harleyxjguy]

Dec 8, 2017 23:03:39 GMT kazetanade said:

Dec 8, 2017 21:50:31 GMT harleyxjguy said:

If losing TL hurt with 12 Dev shots why do you think it would be better with D3 shots?

Honest question since I want hybrid Fex to work.

Because HVC wound things on a 2+ to 3+, as opposed to 3+ to 5+, and also has -2AP making marines primaris and bikes suffer much worser saves, makes warriors need to roll 6s and denies a save to flak jackets like Abberrants, and also instant kills most multi-wound infantry not a Character.

I shoot less but i need less shots to connect as well - the shots that do connect would have done a lot more than the stray Dev shots, against a wider variety of targets. Devs just wreck T3 5+ and below rather completely.

That's not to say Devs are bad. If you ran 72 shots instead of 36 shots, your results are way different - they'd be wrecking ball monster. That's just how the Dev variance work. You can refer to mattblowers leviathan Dev spam for reference.

Edit: list building considerations are different at 1k too. Wrap is less prevalent because its such a tight squeeze to bring everything usefil you need - devs arent as necessary as in 2k where wrap needs to be removed ASAP.

Well said.

[red]

Tail weapons I don't see them listed.
AG on gargoyles it's not in the codex any more thought it was a index thing.

[kazetanade]

Dec 9, 2017 6:18:47 GMT red said:

Tail weapons I don't see them listed.
AG on gargoyles it's not in the codex any more thought it was a index thing.

I dont have any tail weapons on the Carnifex Stampede. I opted for an extra body rather than an extra attack on the Fexes and ran out of points.

For the Gargs in the Alphastrike, AG is still a legal option due to the FAQ allowing you bring in index wargear options but with the latest pricing for everything.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Gameplan is simple - Flyrants drop in and clear out the deepstrike Denyers. Tank the first volley of shots, then the remainder comes in. If the enemy is unprepared, or playing vehicle heavy, everything comes in at once and plan to pop the transports and let the bugs dig in. Right now this NEEDS a testrun before I can continue theorycrafting - too much performance is unknown whether effective, viable, or feels lacking. The 1-2 nature of facing a heavy wrap list is also left in the air, and the adaptability of the list vs heavy AV is unknown espeically considering the type of weapons AV will be bringing in.

Quick thoughts:

I think the 1-2 should be OK survivability wise (i.e. at 2250 pts, I don't think I ever lost more than 1 flyrant in a turn, though I think I came close, and some of that was due to mal/t-guard that I didn't). I'd be more concerned about how well 3 sets of devs would fare against anything other than light wrap, and you've also got other screening methods (e.g. scouts, scout sentinels).

But my biggest concern with the list as a whole: you've got a very heavy concentration of force in the trygon drop. Which has very limited mobility after the drop. If their army is split in the corners for, say, a DoW map: you should be able to crush one flank pretty well. But I'd be concerned about getting to the other flank: I think that'd rely a bit much on the flyrants. Which would work...if they didn't have wrap/screens.

Also:

Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 189pts]: Adrenal Glands, Monstrous Rending Claws, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings

. Carnifex: Monstrous Acid Maw, Spore Cysts, Toxin Sacs, 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms

Umm...why does the fex have TS and not the MRC flyrant?

[almostmercury]

Dec 6, 2017 15:58:43 GMT kazetanade said:

Note to self - Need better note keeping method. Cant keep track of list between changes. 

You can use spoiler tags and type it out man. Whenever people export from apps it's bulky and hard to read.

Dec 8, 2017 20:27:28 GMT kazetanade said:

Devs were lacklustre - i didnt realize how much losing TL hurts. I will most likely be swapping concepts, making MST / HVC as my hybrid base.

I have only played 3 games with the new codex and 2 have been @1250, with 1 @2000 today. I'm playing another 2000 tomorrow night.

I don't like the Devs x2 with MRC Tyrants, at least not if I can only run one. I can say I've probably been playing them wrong, which is why I'm still unsure about them. But that's the trick, they really do offer specific things. The MRCs are good on paper, but they really only work against very specific targets. You can't really take on dedicated melee units or even large units with volume of attacks. You're stuck with some characters and transports really and I'd rather just shoot.

I still want to try them in a pair though to see if redundancy makes the variance better. Love the T7. Love the 4++. Love dropping them down and casting smite and scream.

I did get a chance to run two flyrants both with 4x devs and I was happy about it. 48 S6 shots was phenomenal, doing work against thunder cavalry, the stormfang (SW limousine flyer), and even a baneblade.

[kazetanade]

No One i dont know - may have been a transition mistake or a point filler option just to get full points.

Your point about the drop mobility is a good one. I dont expect an evenly spaced army, one flank is definitely going to be far more powerful or concentrated than the other one.
More likely than not people will ball up vs a Nid army. My main concern is fast movers like bikes or jetbikes but i think surviving Flyrants can handle it.

Yea i am a little worried about 36 shots only too, my triple Dev carnies didnt do too well. May revisit it to make it 2 Sets of dakka Flyrants instead of 3.



almostmercury i think Devs should be taken in pairs where possible, but for the Flyrant MRC is just so good for being free. I need to test them out but i got decent results out of the Patriarchs version although he has way more attacks. I also wanted to make the best use out of Kraken.

From the Fexes i would say 48 shots is the minimum for any army though. At 36 shots i barely killed a bike, 3+ 3+ 3+ 2W kinda has that effect - but i suspect my HVC would have been the better gun, bringing into question whether the gauge of the Devs usefulness was accurate.

Will see when i can have another game to compare the two. 48 shots is a "soft" gauge, and with a boatload of Spitters I'm not sure if more Devs are needed too. In 1k i expect a lot more points in ratio into big toys too so may not need as many devs.

Edit: i type on a phone, exporting is a lot easier but i can look to consolidate the list on pc later.

EDIT 2: almostmercury I changed the editing let me know if it is legible.

[red]

If you shave off a few points like take 20 gargoyles and drop 1 licktor and find 2 points some where you could fit in 3 hyve guard with shock guns point for point best anti tank we have. and way better then a lictor . and they are better against bikers 2.

[kazetanade]

Dec 11, 2017 21:14:18 GMT red said:

If you shave off a few points like take 20 gargoyles and drop 1 licktor and find 2 points some where you could fit in 3 hyve guard with shock guns point for point best anti tank we have. and way better then a lictor . and they are better against bikers 2.

I assume you're talking about alphastrike 2000. I have a unit of Shock Guard coming in with the drop, in a Jormungandr Aux drop.

I could remove 10 Gargs, take away AG from them, and remove a lictor to get the other unit of ShockGuard, but what am i doing with them? 24" range no synapse running across the map doesnt sound very good.

The point is taken though. If three gargoyles dont really perform i may shave points off to bring another HG unit.

[almostmercury]

Shockguard are variance nightmares. Everything relevant is d3 and they’re S7 -1 instead of S8 -2 and no cover.

That’s before even accounting for 24” range and needing line of sight.

Shock guard might have the highest *potential* output against tanks, but only against tanks.

The exocrine has the overall best performance, with hive guard coming second.