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Post by gigasnail on Feb 24, 2015 23:37:29 GMT
And people will only ignore shrikes/ravs in favor of a melee flyrant until they understand what they can do.
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Post by shiwan8 on Feb 25, 2015 0:31:32 GMT
Same (please do not swear) different day. You are the only one making the flyrant/ravener comparison. THAT was not the argument and you know it. I don't think raveners are a top choice, but they are far better than you are trying to make out. I'm not a top tier player and I can make them work, you need to try harder. I made a comparison for equal points. Nothing else. The argument was that they are good and I honestly want proof before I'll believe that. To this date there has been no proof for that claim, what so ever. You making them work is less about your skill than it is about your opponents skill. Smart player knows how to kill them, like for example by shooting at them with just bolters or something like that. Every other hit makes a would with no saves... Shrikes, ravaners, and genes have no synergy? I guess I should sell my malanthropes and venoms then. It takes 134 las gun shots to kill 5 shrikes / ravaners. That's 670 points, or 335 if in rapid fire, assuming they don't have a cover save better than 5+. I'm going to go on a limb here and say you played ravaners maybe 5 times, played them (please do not swear), and gave up on them. That doesn't make them bad, it makes you bad. I've played over 150 games since our new codex dropped, all but 10 with at least 5 shrikes (which are better than ravaners 9/10 times). They almost always perform, except against very specific lists. If my opponent is pouring the necessary firepower into them to kill them, then they're ignoring malanthropes, hive tyrants, and other serious threats. You can sit on your high horse and dump garbage on things you don't understand, proclaiming your ignorance as arrogance if you like. Your posts make it pretty clear you don't put thought into what say, and so I cannot take you seriously. Back up your claims with evidence or just keep parroting what other people say. Making outlandish statements and mocking people has no weight in this thread. Malanthropes and venoms will not keep up with a unit that moves 12"+d6" per turn if they are not in combat or trying to get in to one. So no, that does not last past the first turn. Even if it did, it's the malan and venom that are synergistic with everything. Raveners and shrikes benefit from them, not the other way around. It takes 30 hits from a bolter to kill 5 shrikes/raveners. That's 210 points, or 3 basic 5 man obsec SU marines. Or one battlecannon. What ever suits your preference. Actually they did great for me because my opponents ignored them for obvious reasons for the first few games. Then they started to die on meaningless small arms fire. As I said above, it's not the user but the opponent. Raveners and shrikes are pretty straight forward. You find a target and find a way to go there. Stupid opponent lets you do that, smart one makes it so hard that you either sacrifice them to something inconsequential or sit behind the loss block doing nothing for the whole game. Or they just get run over by something like canoptec harvest. Honestly, if your opponents have lists that itulize lasguns and combat squad bolters as necessary firepower, it's not you or your list that wins the games for you. Your opponent simply can't play. I'm challenging a claim that is that raveners/shrikes are good. I'm waiting for the evidence. I see none. It's not that I do not want to believe you. It's that I have no reason what so ever to do so. I do love those units. Just ordered 6 more raveners. I just know they are bad. That does not stop me though. I'm just not going to lie to myself so that I can feel better when I field lists that are severy handicapped. You are off on the point cost for the you it is 120 for 4 bar-bones. Your comparison is impossible to process. Have you ever run raveners in to combat before? what size unit to you use and what do you put on them? I am sorry but you are not giving context to go with your claim. Ideally you have pliantly of synapse in your list but things happen. I take it you have only rolled 3 or less with IB for them. It is possible to roll 4 or higher. Roll of a 6 can be almost godly. And with leviathan you can get a reroll on IB if you get a bad result. All this units you talked have synergies to be used. Even Genstealers. When some one says something is impossible in a dice game...... lets just say you need to play more to see the impossible happen more. I didn't say raveners or shrike would walk up to a IK and kill it by itself. if the unit is large enough it can easily over 2 turns. but on average a unit of 6 can take 1-2 hull points off to finish one off on the charge. We don't have autocannons. so why point them out? Rending walker and armor was how we did it in 5th. How is it not a option now? Raveners // are just part of the puzzle. Not the end all be all. we all have never said that. Your comment on raveners are being useless against the top lists, mediocre lists, is showing. Your telling all of us that have played with them that we are playing inexperienced players, badly written list that where meant to let us win. Sorry that doesn't fly with many of our experience's. I have personally played vs. top tire list with them and won. They where useful unit in the game and pulled their weight. You said{{{{You forget that unlike the shrikes, the flyrant is alive after first turn and thus can continue to do damage. Shrikes and raveners die the second they come within lasgun range. And no, I did not refer to 5 shrikes. I referred to the 135p worth of raveners, which is 4 without ups. }}} I am you just don't get it. I will gladly take 3 base raveners or shrikes vs a = unit of guard any day. I don't know about you but I get my flyrants focused down in one turn often. They are often the first thing targeted not the shrikes or raveners. I love your thoughts on what is should be equal for survivability between units. I usually run them in 6s with claws. I play against marines, eldar, tau and necron armies. Ideally you do not have to worry about synapse, meaning you do not have units that depend on it, like raveners, or you have so much of it that the enemy does not have the means to kill enough of them to pose a problem, which is impossible. The reality is that there is way too much of a risk for them to fail their LD and then there is the 50% chance of them killing one of their group. Leviathan forces you to take troops that are useless because of the formation. What might be the synegy of a genestealer? What can it do that makes it good enough to spend 70+ points in it when it is a well known fact that it will never reach combat? "Nothing" is impossible in theory. The fact still remains, that there are things that happen maybe once in a lifetime and it is pretty damn stupid to bet everything on that chance on a specific moment. You would honestly spend over 200 points to make 1-2 hull points to an IK? Seriously? You need at least 3 times that much to kill it and it does not slow down from anything less than death. Why would you do that? Why not spend those points + little more for another unit that can actually harm it? I did not say your opponents are inexperienced. Experienced players can be bad too. They just do not know how to deal with raveners or shrikes. That's all it is. They are hilariously easy to kill considering the points. Again, you winning with them against top tier lists just shows that your opponent did not know how to play the game. The regular eldar list, meaning WKs and serpents will not even flinch against them. AM can just barrage them to oblivion with half the points. Even CSM can just breeze through them like nothing. I wonder how it is possible that you get your flyrants killed in the first turn when you can just opt to have the same 2++ or 3++ with them as you can with raveners and shrikes, using venoms and malans. I don't think I've ever gotten them dead before turn 4. It's not that hard, just do not be stupid about it. If raveners and shrikes flew, they would be almost as hard to kill, but they do not.
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Post by almostmercury on Feb 25, 2015 1:01:06 GMT
135p of raveners will just kill itself. You need synapse. That's another 100. The role of the tyrant is to provide synapse, buff our units and kill the enemy. Raveners can only kill and suck at that, no offence. Maxing out on indestructible synapse units isn't much of an opportunity cost. So... irrelevant. I don't know what game you're playing, but it isn't 40k.
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Post by shiwan8 on Feb 25, 2015 1:06:03 GMT
135p of raveners will just kill itself. You need synapse. That's another 100. The role of the tyrant is to provide synapse, buff our units and kill the enemy. Raveners can only kill and suck at that, no offence. Maxing out on indestructible synapse units, isn't much of an opportunity cost. So... irrelevant. I don't know what game you're playing, but it isn't 40k. You are perfectly free to prove that I am wrong. It was not my job to prove that I am right since I only challenged the claim that 5+ armor on what is essentially 3 marines on one package and asking 30+ points for it is reasonable. I did it anyway or at least presented better proof than "I've had success with them" so...yeah, your turn if you disagree.
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Post by almostmercury on Feb 25, 2015 1:22:02 GMT
No, you've said is that 15+ is playable. That means 30+ points is (please do not swear) outrageous. There is a difference. Your words literally describe starting with a marine. And then you can rebalance the model by downgrading an armour save, adding 2 wounds, increasing movement by 6", and adding a handful of USRs. I don't know what game you're playing, but it isn't 40k. It's not like you're going to accept any evidence, but here's your thread discussing the usefulness and value of shrikes and raveners: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/47686/tyranids-competitive-close-combat-seriouslyIf you need the hundredss of tournament bat reps kind of evidence, then you can rest happily that no one will ever change your mind.
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Post by jaysic on Feb 25, 2015 1:25:21 GMT
Ok, so we're starting to move towards a real discussion here, so let's just go ahead and take that last step. Things I'd like to address about your post. 1) "I made a comparison for equal points. Nothing else. The argument was that they are good and I honestly want proof before I'll believe that. To this date there has been no proof for that claim, what so ever. You making them work is less about your skill than it is about your opponents skill. Smart player knows how to kill them, like for example by shooting at them with just bolters or something like that. Every other hit makes a would with no saves..." To the first part, regarding there being no evidence. There have been quite a few threads on this topic in the past. Here are that should do well enough to explain their merits, and how to use them; thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45414/discuss-shrikes-ravanersthetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/47686/tyranids-competitive-close-combat-seriouslyTo the second part, which is covered above but I'll give you a rundown, is sorta true. Getting CC units into CC reliably is more important than getting there ASAP. Instead of transports, we have to screen, or bubblewrap our CC units. You effectively buy a 5+ cover save. You add, ideally, Malanthropes to then give your screen a 5+ cover, and your CC unit a 3+. If you can, put intervening terrain between you and your target to give your screen a 3+ too. You get into charge range, whatever is left of your bubble wrap charges (or multicharges) to eat overwatch/bog people down, and you send your shrikes/ravaners/melyrant/carnifex/genestealers/whatever you want into combat, where it does it's thing. If you don't do this, and just charge a model into bolters, yeah you just die. So even if your opponent targets your Ravaners, you have a 3+ save. But then, he has to deal with a massive tarpit hitting his lines, assuming he can roll to hit, roll to wound, and roll to get past your cover save. So does he target that, or the tarpit? Or instead, does he target the Malanthrope, which is buffing not only both those two units, but may others too. Or does he target the flying hive tyrants? The Dimachaeron? The Hierodule? Units like this are part of a whole. If he is "a good player" and targets a 230 point unit like this first, he has all sorts of other problems he hasn't even started to deal with yet. And just whatever tactical squad that is available spraying rapid fire bolter rounds (which means there will 100% be a charge next turn) is not going to do anything to stop that unit. 2) "Malanthropes and venoms will not keep up with a unit that moves 12"+d6" per turn if they are not in combat or trying to get in to one. So no, that does not last past the first turn. Even if it did, it's the malan and venom that are synergistic with everything. Raveners and shrikes benefit from them, not the other way around." Yes they can. You have a fleeted run move, and 6" of shrouded that moves in front of that. Both units start with their toes on the start line. Run your Malanthrope first, then don't run yourself out of the cover save...or daisy chain 1 model back an extra or 2 to stay in the shroud bubble. You can stay in for 3 turns like this, but it shouldn't matter because you should be in combat turn 2. 3) "It takes 30 hits from a bolter to kill 5 shrikes/raveners. That's 210 points, or 3 basic 5 man obsec SU marines. Or one battlecannon. What ever suits your preference." Yes, it takes 30 hits. Which takes 45 shots. Marines are what, 13 points each? So 22 marines with bolters and 1 with a pistol best case scenario? But if you have a 5+ cover save, it's now 67.5 bolter shots. If you have a 3+ cover save it moves to 135 shots. If you don't have a 3+ cover save on a unit you're trying to get into CC, then that's you using a unit wrong, not the unit being bad or your opponent having amazing target priority. As far as "Honestly, if your opponents have lists that itulize lasguns and combat squad bolters as necessary firepower, it's not you or your list that wins the games for you. Your opponent simply can't play," you brought this up, not me. Your words "You forget that unlike the shrikes, the flyrant is alive after first turn and thus can continue to do damage. Shrikes and raveners die the second they come within lasgun range." I was just trying to shed light on the fact that flashlights do suck. The numbers I provided on how many lasgun shots it took to kill a 5 man shrike squad (134, if you don't recall) did not take into effect a 3+ cover save, just the innate 5+ armor save. I would also like to point out that my Melyrant gets targeted before my shrikes every single time. Sometimes he outlives the Shrikes, sometimes not. Depends on the faction / list / opponent. Both those units are seeing combat round 2 though, and only have to weather 1 turn of fire behind a comfortable cover save. Sure there are ignores cover weapons. Usually those go towards the more traditional threats that opponents are used to seeing. And if they do target your CC unit first, then they'll be reminded why HTs, crones, dakkafexen, or whatever were high on their target priority in the first place. Honestly everyone should be shooting Malanthropes first all the time anyway. So long as they're not doing that you're in great shape. I'm getting off topic. If you want to play ravaners and have them work, go check up on the other threads. Play them more. When they don't work, ask why, and ask how you can mitigate what happened to them. Think about adapting your playstyle, as well as your upgrades or unit choices. You'll find a lot of things that can surprise you, and are extremely rewarding to play. Who do you think had more fun? The dude who innovated Lictorshame winning LVO, or someone with 5 Wave serpents and an Imperial Knight winning the same event? Just because something isn't the "accepted best" (I'm looking at you Flyrant. I bet someone took 5 of you and an IK to LVO) doesn't mean it's bad.
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Post by shiwan8 on Feb 25, 2015 2:53:48 GMT
No, you've said is that 15+ is playable. Not before they were claimed to be good. So no, not my job to prove the original claim wrong but it is a job to prove that it right and that job belongs to who ever happens to agree with that claim. Learn the difference. 1st: I've seen them. No proof there. Nothing that knocks down top tournament lists reliably. Sorry, they just will not do. 1.1st: "Ideal" situation is nearly never there, is it? Our only truly synergistic defensive units move 6. Our assault units move 12". These do not synergize with eachother. Your massive tar pit also moves 6" + run per turn, so no, they are not keeping up. On top of that, the pressure either is on their faces on turn 2 or our synapse will just die -> gg. Also, since everyone gets everything now, vywerns galore will blow the wrapping in one turn and then it's r.i.p. for the 5+ saves. Actually it's likely our newly found super melee gods will die to those grenades also. Then, when the second turn starts, the opponent is again free to choose targets how ever he/she wants to. 2: Works, unless the opponent actually decides to do something about that cover save. It's interestin what those serpents do when they want to kill something. 3: You assume that there is some cover where you want it to be, which is unlikely again because that only happens when the opponent is an idiot. All the opponent has to do is to deploy using common sense. I would not assume that everyone I play against is an idiot, would you? Also the opponent just might have enough brains to make a list that is not defenceless against melee units, meaning they are likely shot down before they reach their targets. Guns are cheap, even the good ones. 6 vywerns are, what, 350p? Good bye any and all non-monster units. on a normal game that leaves 1500p to get things that kill heavies easily, which is not that hard really. The opponent does not need to kill them. Weakening the group is enough. 2 raveners will eat something useless and then get shot the during next turn.
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Post by jaysic on Feb 25, 2015 3:08:53 GMT
Cool man, agree to disagree. I don't see us making anymore ground with each other here.
Edit; Horms move 6+d6+3 with fleet. They'll outpace ravaners/melyrants/shrikes. Gargoyles do this even easier. It's super easy to keep things shrouded. I guess your experiences were somehow different. A 5+ cover on your screen is enough. Yes, Wyverns / TFC bone that. So do SS shots, but they're probably at a 2+ jinking HT or the Malanthropes.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 25, 2015 5:02:14 GMT
shiwan8 LOL, by your logic gargoyles are worthless piles of steaming dog (please do not swear). Yet they win more games for me than anything other than flyrants. In order to prove your point you go from insulting the hive to insulting all my opponents. Nice. If you can't make shrikes or raveners work, it says more about you than us. Anytime you think everyone else is the problem, you might need to look in the mirror. Plenty of posters have linked to previous discussions. If that isn't enough to give you some new points of view, quite frankly, the baby Jesus himself showing up on your doorstep isn't gonna make a difference.
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Post by FTGT-BeeCee on Feb 25, 2015 5:05:55 GMT
The Malanthrope is a big help if you are trying to run horms/shrikes/raveners. The fleet on the malanthrope makes a big difference.
Arguing ideal situations is always tough and you can find a counter to pretty much any unit in the game. Is the snakes are working for you, keep at it. I would love to see them on the table more, they are beautiful models.
I for one don't see a lot of Wyverns. The meta around these parts has shifted to anti-knight/ anti-mech. Not a lot of people are running weak blobs that the Wyverns feast on. So meta will obviously play a huge part in whether these units will work.
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Post by shadowfinder on Feb 25, 2015 5:18:18 GMT
I don't know what tournaments you are playing but people don't take Wyverns / TFC in every list. Serpent spam is hard for any list what's your point. It gives a army of our best unit issues. it gives Every army out their issues no matter what codex.. And what top tier list are your complaining about. Censtar I have not seen it win a tourney locally. Raveners are kind of a good counter to that unit to be honest. I have used them well vs. AV13 spam. Yes I would gladly spend 230 points in raveners to take a IK last 1 or 2 hull points off after my tyrants Fail to kill it first or second turn. In my area I am facing 2 to 3 IK so killing one with a unit that cost less then it does is a good thing I thought. If it fails to kill it it may hold it in combat for a few rounds as well. As a Army we have no good counter to IK. Nothing really that is cost effective. Focusing 2 to 4 tyrants to kill something over 2 to 3 turns is not a good thing usually in my book. Tar pitting is good;;; but tarpitting and being able to hurt it is better. Is rending reliable no, but it does happen a lot more then not. It all helps in the end.
What is the math on a unit of raveners 6 to 8 with just rending claws do to a IK? Also what about Genesteallers doing the same thing. The don't have to kill it out right, it be nice if they did, but just finish it off. Tyranids are all about working as a team. Also trust me you kill a IK with them that player will have a unhealthy fear in future games. LOL
I personally have won Tournaments with raveners in my list and not the cheap ones you are talking about. I don't know anyone on this forum that would call West Rider a bad player not knowing how to kill Tyranids. Shrike and Raveners just don't roll over and die as you clam.
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Post by gigasnail on Feb 25, 2015 5:25:44 GMT
ravs hit IK on 3's, rend on 6's, and only glance if they roll a 5 or 6 for the extra die (S4 + 6 + 3 for AV13). 5 attacks on the charge. a unit of 6 has 30 attacks, 3ish rends, one glance, assuming they go first (and they likely will, as they're in no way a threat and the opponent should know it). stomps and SD CC will do them in.
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Post by shadowfinder on Feb 25, 2015 5:57:21 GMT
Here is a list for non forge-world meta. it doesn't have answers to everything but it can Respond well to different threats and deployment types and terrain on the table. please look at the list. I now it isnot everyones taste. It is something for us to chew on so to speak. This list has 3 unit that are unwanted so to speak. +++ march 21 Test templat (1849pts) +++ ++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Hive Fleet Detachement) ++ + No Force Org Slot + Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters] + HQ + Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings] Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings] + Troops + Genestealer Brood [15x Genestealer] Broodlord [Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs] Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore] Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore] + Elites + Venomthrope Brood [Venomthrope] + Fast Attack + Ravener Brood Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] + Heavy Support + Carnifex Brood Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms] Toxicrene Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax] I can split the raveners in to two units of 4 but I feel the large unit is better cause they all come in together. this is not the Sub Assault formation but it allows for a little more freedom with the list build
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Post by almostmercury on Feb 25, 2015 5:57:44 GMT
Not before they were claimed to be good. So no, not my job to prove the original claim wrong but it is a job to prove that it right and that job belongs to who ever happens to agree with that claim. Learn the difference. How about I just take issue with your line of reasoning, as it can be summed up as follows: Raveners are bad. Only poor opponents allow Raveners to seem good. Therefore, any time your Raveners seem good, your opponent must be bad. How do I confirm that my opponent bad? Because Raveners are bad, and in that match the Raveners seemed good. That's not a good argument, that's circular reasoning. Learn the difference. I mean... unless you have evidence that everyone posting success so far has only played unskilled opponents (outside of your assumption that Raveners are bad). You have that right? But, maybe I shouldn't expect much from someone who argues burden of proof in light of 40+ pages across multiple threads dedicated to the topic.
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Post by jaysic on Feb 25, 2015 6:04:13 GMT
You need 33 Ravaners with RC. 165 (really only needs 161, so pretty much 32 ravs...1120 points) attacks > 110.6 hits > 18.8 rends > 6.2 glances 81 attacks, so 17 Genes (With at least AG/ST...340 points). 85 attacks > 57 hits > 9.6 Rends > 6.5 Hps. 55% chance of explode result for +D3. Ravaners don't have this option, as they can't get a pen. The numbers are kind of all-over the place due to the nature of rending. 14 ST/AG Genes will get just over 4HP average, but a ~36%ish chance for that other D3.
Our best answer to IKs are Stonecrusher Carnifexen. D3 S10 AP2 Armorbane HoW. CC Fexen are just as good but cheaper....except they swing after the D weapon (probably) kills them. Their D3 S9 HoW can do a number on the IKs too, but it's not even close to the Stonecrusher (Nor is anything else we have access to). It's main problem is that it has no access to fleet. 2 Stonecrushers (300 points), on the charge, do 3.64 HPs, 56% chance to add another D3. If you get 2 the thing is toast. If the stonecrushers are in seperate units, he has to dictate how many attacks go to each fex. With 3 attacks he'll miss once, and chances of one surviving are high, and when it swings the Knight will blow.
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