Let's discuss Shrikes vs. Ravaners

[jaysic]

Disclaimer; drunkposting

Inspired from this post; thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45270/comers-tourney-focus-speed-flyers

So, here we have two very similar units that occupy the same FOC slot, with some subtle differences. Is one so much better than the other that the other might as well not be in the codex, or are they pretty much the same with some niche` differences?

Let's compare the two.

Base cost is the same. With no upgrades, Ravaners get an extra attack, ignore difficult terrain on both movement and assault, and have fleet. Shrikes sacrafice ignoring terrain in assault, fleet, take dangerous terrain in the movement phase if ending in DT, and 1 attack to gain synapse.

If you're kitting them out for H2H (which really, imo, is the role they fill) the Shrikes equalize their A profile (assuming you give the shrikes/ravaners RC...which why wouldn't you for a fast moving h2h unit?)

At this point I think you really can say "6 of one, a half dozen of the other." IE; where their situational differences come into play. Ravaners can get into combat more reliably at 35 points, with a 12" move (not DT tests, no dangerous terrain) and aren't slowed by difficult (assaulting over an aegis line, for example). They also have fleet to help with their turn 1 run, or to help with a bad assault roll turn 2 (or, if you're unlucky, 3).

At this point, I give the edge to Ravaners, assuming the have supporting Synapse.

Their biggest downfall here is attacking last in H2H, because you're likely assaulting through cover, and even IG are going to take some wounds off of them with overwatch and a few lucky H2H hits before they can start dicing things to shreds. Shrikes, at equal points, suffer the same downfalls.

Shrikes have the option to take AG to give them the fleet bonus, and flesh hooks to strike at initiative, plus Furious Charge as an added bonus. Boom, they're better, model for model, than ravaners at this point. The problem is, they also clock in at 8 points more per model. Since they're already 27% more expensive than a Ravaner at this point, I say put Toxic sacs on them and fully commit to a h2h powerhouse for the extra 3 points.

This puts them at a 12" movement, re-roll assault moves, ignore i1 for assaulting through cover, +1 st rending re-roll failed wounds powerhouse. Love it. Amazing. But for the extra 11 points you're putting into them, are they really more effective than the 2.2 hormagants and the ravaner that you can buy for the same points?


This is where I'm at. 2 Horms and a Ravaner just seem better than a shrike (more wounds, more attacks, nearly the same speed, but having to deal with attacking last). Sure, if you NEED the synapse, absolutely will die without it, shrikes win because the other option doesn't offer it at all.

Are Shrikes better than Ravaners? Are Ravaners better than shrikes?

Should our fast moving, hard hitting h2h unit need to put all of our eggs into one basket with a lot of points (Shrikes), or should we lean on our other synapse options for synergy and let the ravaners fill that fast, specialized h2h role?

I think it's a wash....it depends on your list and your swarm is doing as a whole, and can't be viewed under a microscope. For my tastes, if I'm going to get ID to S8, or blasted by rapid fire firewarriors, I'll take a 35 point equivalent to a 46 one, but that decision comes based on my list, and not 1 Fast Attack option compared directly to the other.


What does the Hive have to say on this?

[twinpine]

I think this comes down to preference. If I could give a Prime wings that would make me choose Shrikes. Rending Raveners with deathspitters are still pretty good. Sure they get shot up, but they are fast, and they're cheaper than shrikes. For some reason I think they look better next to my Trygon Prime.

[DukeMantis]

Neither are optimal, both are enjoyable. If we overlook the obvious instant death issues then it might be a simple issue of which do you prefer/which compliments the rest of your list. I fought a fellow nid player recently who had a big maxxed out unit of shrikes... they were awesome... so fast and strong... killed my Trygon... then my 6 hive guard started popping them like tin cans in a car crusher. I slaughtered the entire unit in a turn. For such a hefty points commitment they were so easy to kill imho.

Shrikes provide mobile synapse, for me this is their biggest strength. If you have no intention of running Harpy/Crone or want some synapse to run upfield with your gargoyles then they can work. Also if like me your outflanking large swarms the speed of the Shrike can aid in spreading synapse.

As for a loadout i like Deathspitters, Adrenal Glands and Rending Claws if you have the points to spare take a Venom Cannon as well, your swift enough to flank a transport and have enough shots to glance it down. Yes toxin sacs could help them tie up a big MC but you have better units for that... although if you gave them boneswords they could make an amusing mc-assassin group.... they would likely never get there but with wings they can deepstrike! Lol

On the charge with the aforementioned loadout on a minsized unit you have 12 strength 5 attacks with rending... rerolling your charge for 130pts... speed and synapse also in the mix. Its a fun unit... but it will die if your opponents are of even average skill.

As for Raveners... right now i think they are toilet. But im reserving utter damnation of them because i have a strong hunch they will gain improvements in an upcoming Dataslate! They just have too.. they are so dull. I wish you could brood them with a Trygon and tunnel them as a formation!

[werewalrus]

The synapse is so important though...

I am not an expert Tyranid player by any means, especially since I just picked them up a few weeks ago, but I'm liking the idea of using Shrikes in conjunction with some of the Lictor shenannigans. The Lictors go to ground...the shrikes deepstrike in...they all stand back up. That is...assuming that I'm not messing up on the rules. I really like the breakdown that you put forth here...and I want to like both of these units since they're so cool looking. In conclusion, I think that you'll have to get some better feedback from one of the vets...

[jaysic]

Still drunkposting. Kneejerk reply.

1) Been playing nids since 2nd edition. They are my favorite army because they are cussing amazing spacebugs. Spacebugs are always awesome. Only race in 40k not native to the milky way, even better. Don't have souls. Suck it everyone who has souls (Ok...Caluxius (sp?) assassin, you're cool).

2) Only Shrikes and Ravaners bring this sort of CC ability without being MC with any sort of speed. Next closest unit is Genestealers, whole 'nother discussion.

3) Synapse is really the biggest benefit to Shrikes over Ravaners, going point for point. There are other things in our army that do this. Only ravaners match shrikes when combining h2h and speed (and ravaners do this better than shrikes without upgrades).

Dukemantis; you made some excellent points with supporting examples...except 'ravaners are toilet.' Add some reasoning to this like you did your other examples please! I'd (no sarcasm...seriously) love to hear why you think this.

Also; Toxic Sacs are not for taking down MCs (though they certainly are useful here), they're about turning your hits into wounds much more reliably on T3/T4 units. Wounding MCs on a 4+ is just a freebie side effect, not a reason to take them.

[DukeMantis]

Sorry i was just being lazy in not better explaining my thoughts on Raveners... to me they are a poor-mans pressure unit... early game pressure can be achieved better by lictors, flyers, deathleaper, even infiltrating 'stealers with a broodlord. To me Raveners look like they are meant to be a delivery system for Red Terror... who i would not field as i dont like the model at all. They lost adrenals and toxin and didnt get any additional survivability. If you put a gun to my head ill run them with spinefists i guess.

Ive convinced myself raveners will be significantly improved by one of the dataslates though, here's hoping

[jaysic]

/Still drunkposting. It's getting worse, sorry


Hmmmm, I'm not quite sure. How are they a poor man's pressure unit? Yes, Hormagants are probably a more effective fast-pressure unit than Ravaners, but by that comparison, they're even more better (lol grammer?) than Shrikes. The problem is, at least for me, that all 6 troop slots are used and crowded already.

Red Terror? How is he good other than nostalgia (I owned one in 3rd, and loved it) or for the fully "OH WOW HE JUST ATE MARNIUS CALGAR!" moments? I don't see him being worth his points....

A Crone is 5 wounds at T5, you get 15 T4 with ravaners and 5 times more attacks. Also, flyers outside of Apoc are dumb (Disclaimer; nerdrage neckbeard opinion here)

Stealers don't work in our list outside of the dataslate.

Lictors don't work in our list except as teleport homers (once again, outside our dataslate).

While I agree that no TS or AG for Ravaners does bite a bit, I think they're only not an option to try and differienciate (sp!) Ravs from Shrikes, because otherwise, Shrikes just have access to monsterous biocannons and synapse over Ravaners.

Deathleaper is HQ / support unit, not a fast h2h unit, this doesn't warrant comparison.


Not trying to say your post/opinions/observations aren't valid, just trying to get you to put more reasoning/explanation into your post

Basically this; how do lictors (elite), flyers (ok other fast, but see above comparison of wounds/attacks per point), deathleaper (support/hq), or Genestealers (troops that aren't as fast as either of the units being discussed, and also take away from our much better ((imo)) troop slots) fill this roll better than Ravaners? If they do fill it better than Ravaners, then by the same coin why aren't they better than shrikes?

I'm also hoping for Trygon Tunnels to actually become useful, and not random chance, maybe it's good turn 4 if you're very, very lucky (Turn 2 Trygons show up but units you want to show up through the tunnel don't...then they actually show up turn 3...then they get to assault turn 4....seriously why is this even in the codex?!)

[Sensei]

No discussion, Shrikes are better. Mix weapons to keep costs down, take a barbed strangler or use other units to try pin what they are assaulting if you need to save on flesh hooks. Also, you can save on AG as jump infantry allow them a reroll to assault distance; use their 12 inch movement to get them forward initially, then when you're ready, use the 6 inch move and charge reroll to hit - this also gets you hammer of wrath attacks. The main thing is that Shrikes at least get the option for the upgrades if you want them. Shrikes will never hurt themselves, and provide synapse and SitW. Shrikes are also more mobile because although they take dangerous terrain tests if in terrain, they can fly over obstacles freely and get completely out of sight if needed.

At base - Shrikes come with the same stats with 1 lower initiative, and 4 higher Ld. Stock, they still get 4 attacks plus HOW for 5 attacks on the charge
Ravenors come with one higher initiative, 4 lowe Ld and one more attack due to dual weapons, but still only have 5 attacks on the charge.

Cheap CC units of both ravs or shrikes with scytals and rending both cost the same, but shrikes still provide synapse/SitW, and actually get an extra attack over Ravenors now: 3 base + 1 (dual weapons) + 1 (charge) + 1 HOW = 6 over the ravs static 5.

CC shrikes can throw in a lash/sword for some ID, and now outstrip the Ravenors higher base initiative. Shrikes also have the option for toxin sacs for rerolls, increasing rend/ID chances and the ability to hit high toughness targets. A single 3 model shrike unit with a single lash/sword, two with rending, all with toxin costs somewhere around 130 points (off the top of my head without my book). A single CC 3 model rav unit by comparison costs around 105 points, but lacks rerolls, ID capability and synapse, risking injuring themselves to IB. 25 points is well worth it for those three benefits.

I just don't see the point in ever taking ravenors over shrikes....If you want to go cheap CC, scytal/rending ravenors or shrikes cost exactly the same, but shrikes offer way more benefits. The only thing Ravs have over shrikes is that they can take a ranged weapon and keep two CC weapons, but they can't take a barbed strangler, and the cost of doing so is not worth the dual risk of S8 weapons hitting them, or them failing IB and taking themselves out.

Anything Ravs can do, Shrikes do better.

EDIT - I can't figure out this text box stuff....no idea why my post is half in italics

[DukeMantis]

^Im with this guy

[gloomfang]

Jan 31, 2014 3:53:56 GMT DukeMantis said:

Sorry i was just being lazy in not better explaining my thoughts on Raveners... to me they are a poor-mans pressure unit... early game pressure can be achieved better by lictors, flyers, deathleaper, even infiltrating 'stealers with a broodlord. To me Raveners look like they are meant to be a delivery system for Red Terror... who i would not field as i dont like the model at all. They lost adrenals and toxin and didnt get any additional survivability. If you put a gun to my head ill run them with spinefists i guess.

Ive convinced myself raveners will be significantly improved by one of the dataslates though, here's hoping

The big advantage that raveners have over shrikes is that they can take ranged weapons without a decrease in thier CC potential. They also hit at I5 and that makes them hit before most things (like space marines) rather than at the same time. Small differences, but they make a HUGE difference in how they play.

While people are say look the shrikes are better when you throw in all these options, yes they are. But look at the points costs. I run a unit of 4 shrikes and a unit of 4 raveners in my current list.

Cost for the 4 CC shrikes with the bells and whistles? 230pts.
Cost for the 4 raveners with RC and Dev? 160pts.

The raveners are really good at taking out blobs and light/mid infentry. The Shrikes dig out units in cover, light mech and MCs.

Different roles and different prices.

[jaysic]

Jan 31, 2014 4:19:49 GMT Sensei said:

No discussion, Shrikes are better. Mix weapons to keep costs down, take a barbed strangler or use other units to try pin what they are assaulting if you need to save on flesh hooks. Also, you can save on AG as jump infantry allow them a reroll to assault distance; use their 12 inch movement to get them forward initially, then when you're ready, use the 6 inch move and charge reroll to hit - this also gets you hammer of wrath attacks. The main thing is that Shrikes at least get the option for the upgrades if you want them. Shrikes will never hurt themselves, and provide synapse and SitW. Shrikes are also more mobile because although they take dangerous terrain tests if in terrain, they can fly over obstacles freely and get completely out of sight if needed.

At base - Shrikes come with the same stats with 1 lower initiative, and 4 higher Ld. Stock, they still get 4 attacks plus HOW for 5 attacks on the charge
Ravenors come with one higher initiative, 4 lowe Ld and one more attack due to dual weapons, but still only have 5 attacks on the charge.

Cheap CC units of both ravs or shrikes with scytals and rending both cost the same, but shrikes still provide synapse/SitW, and actually get an extra attack over Ravenors now: 3 base + 1 (dual weapons) + 1 (charge) + 1 HOW = 6 over the ravs static 5.

CC shrikes can throw in a lash/sword for some ID, and now outstrip the Ravenors higher base initiative. Shrikes also have the option for toxin sacs for rerolls, increasing rend/ID chances and the ability to hit high toughness targets. A single 3 model shrike unit with a single lash/sword, two with rending, all with toxin costs somewhere around 130 points (off the top of my head without my book). A single CC 3 model rav unit by comparison costs around 105 points, but lacks rerolls, ID capability and synapse, risking injuring themselves to IB. 25 points is well worth it for those three benefits.

I just don't see the point in ever taking ravenors over shrikes....If you want to go cheap CC, scytal/rending ravenors or shrikes cost exactly the same, but shrikes offer way more benefits. The only thing Ravs have over shrikes is that they can take a ranged weapon and keep two CC weapons, but they can't take a barbed strangler, and the cost of doing so is not worth the dual risk of S8 weapons hitting them, or them failing IB and taking themselves out.

Anything Ravs can do, Shrikes do better.

EDIT - I can't figure out this text box stuff....no idea why my post is half in italics

Welp, there's what I failed to see while comparing these two units myself. Time to figure out a way to get these gargoyle wings onto my Ravaners. Seriously, this is pretty much "Lock Thread" territory.

Outdated comment on thread; I don't think the points costs of ranged Ravaners are worth it, they just seem counter-productive to what the unit seems to be; a fast, reliable glass canon in h2h.

Seriously though, wow shrikes.

[Sensei]

Jan 31, 2014 4:59:52 GMT gloomfang said:

Jan 31, 2014 3:53:56 GMT DukeMantis said:

Sorry i was just being lazy in not better explaining my thoughts on Raveners... to me they are a poor-mans pressure unit... early game pressure can be achieved better by lictors, flyers, deathleaper, even infiltrating 'stealers with a broodlord. To me Raveners look like they are meant to be a delivery system for Red Terror... who i would not field as i dont like the model at all. They lost adrenals and toxin and didnt get any additional survivability. If you put a gun to my head ill run them with spinefists i guess.

Ive convinced myself raveners will be significantly improved by one of the dataslates though, here's hoping

The big advantage that raveners have over shrikes is that they can take ranged weapons without a decrease in thier CC potential. They also hit at I5 and that makes them hit before most things (like space marines) rather than at the same time. Small differences, but they make a HUGE difference in how they play.

While I agree that this appears to be a benefit over Shrikes, a 3 model Rav unit with scytal/rending and devourers costs 120 points. It puts out 9 S4 shots at 18 inches and gets a total of 15 S4 attacks on the charge at initiative 5. In second round combat, they put out 12 attacks at inititive 5 (assuming they all survive).Does not have synapse, does not get rerolls (to either charge distance or attacks) and cannot threaten high toughness models.

A 3 model Shrike unit with 1 model equipped Barbed Strangler/rending, one with devourer/Lash/sword, and one equipped with devourer/rending and toxin sacs costs 134 points. It puts out one large blast at 36 inches that causes pinning and 6 S4 shots at 18 inches for a combined potential of causing more hits than the ravs (I tend to average 4-5 models hit with the large blast). On the charge the unit puts out 3 S4 HOW auto hits at inititive 10, 4 potential ID hits at initiative 7, and 8 attacks that could rend at initiative 4 for a total of 15 attacks. Everything but the HOW attacks reroll to wound against T4 or lower and will always wound on a 4+ against high toughness models. Second round combat this unit puts out 3 potential ID attacks at I7, and 6 rending attacks at I4. The unit has synapse, gets rerolls both to attacks and charge distance, threatens high T enemies and can cause ID....all for a grand total of only 14 more points.

I want to like Ravenors. They are one of the coolest looking models in the range. Nothing is going to convince me that they are better than Shrikes. It just isn't true no matter what way you spin it.

EDIT - Jaysic, the shrike unit profile mentions wings in the fluff, but there is nothing noted on the biomorph list about shrikes having wings. I've just been using my ravenor models as shrikes, as at this point there is actually no requirement for them to be modeled with wings.

[saabre]

Jan 31, 2014 5:23:39 GMT Sensei said:

EDIT - Jaysic, the shrike unit profile mentions wings in the fluff, but there is nothing noted on the biomorph list about shrikes having wings. I've just been using my ravenor models as shrikes, as at this point there is actually no requirement for them to be modeled with wings.

By that logic, Gargoyles, Harpies and Crones aren't required to have wings either.

The only reason Hive Tyrants are specically mentioned as getting wings is that you can have a Hive Tyrant with or without wings depending on whether you want it to be flying or not.

[Sensei]

Fair enough. That's true, didn't realize it wasn't listed on the other entries. None of my opponents have an issue with the ravenor model being used as a shrike, and I don't play in tournements, so it gives me a way to use some of my favourite models.

[Deathnid]

Just thought id add, if you intend to deepstrike shrikes and they have movement to spare, only move 6" movement and you can add hammer of wrath to that long list of abilities.