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Post by mattblowers on Jan 17, 2015 16:36:48 GMT
The recent use and popularity of lictors has got me to thinking: what else does the 'conventional wisdom' of the 40K community write off as sub-par that we can find potential use in?
Here's my reasoning: if we keep doing what we are doing we can expect to keep getting the same results. Spamming flyrants is only going to get us so far. As was stated in the TSHFT reports people are starting to plan for flyrants and if you hit a hard counter the day isn't going to end well.
I'm convinced that we can find ways to work lists that can have some success. They may be situational, but they can give us a 'punchers chance' to pull out the win. Being resigned to realistically shooting for a bottom half standing in every competition shouldn't be the goal. If that's the best we can do, then so be it. I'm convinced there's more out there though.
Things I've had work:
Max MSU genestealers
Max hive guard (this has hard counters and I've not figured out the right combination yet, tau just ruins your day)
I have a few other oddballs I'm working on, but I'll wait to until I have more play experience under my belt.
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Post by Yautja on Jan 17, 2015 17:50:20 GMT
Well last night I tried having lots of our multi-wound T4 large creatures and it was pretty dire.
DL
2 Lictors
3 Snooty Warriors
3 Shrikes
3 Biovores
Take away the factors that I was against a list perfect to counter such units and that my dice were obscene, the fact remains that even if I'd rolled really well and gotten a numerous kills they were always ALWAYS going to get wiped out by the retaliation attacks.
Anyway, our Warriors, Raveners, Shrikes etc are expensive in relation to their durability and can't be taken in singles like Lictors, who also have stealth. Sadly, I can't see them being competitive, as much as I love them.
To try to add a positive slant, I think spamming Carnifex could work. 6 AG-Dakkafex for 1,000p is expensive but you're sporting an insane number of shots once in range as well as the threat of S9 HoW spam and S10 hits.
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Post by eskimo on Jan 17, 2015 22:09:47 GMT
Looking at HQ, what left is there? Swarmlord who's terribly overpriced, the Tervigon which was 5th's spammer and Deathleaper who doesn't do much more than Lictors.
Mawlocs, Shrikes, Genestealer formations, and Lictors work well together. Good in a friendly enviroment anyway.
Troop spam while not ideal for tournies does benefit from obj secured, and Maelstrom is all about objective control.
So nothing from me that you probably haven't already thought over.
I bet whatever lists become slightly more original still contain flyrants.
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 17, 2015 22:36:16 GMT
The recent use and popularity of lictors has got me to thinking: what else does the 'conventional wisdom' of the 40K community write off as sub-par that we can find potential use in? Here's my reasoning: if we keep doing what we are doing we can expect to keep getting the same results. Spamming flyrants is only going to get us so far. As was stated in the TSHFT reports people are starting to plan for flyrants and if you hit a hard counter the day isn't going to end well. I'm convinced that we can find ways to work lists that can have some success. They may be situational, but they can give us a 'punchers chance' to pull out the win. Being resigned to realistically shooting for a bottom half standing in every competition shouldn't be the goal. If that's the best we can do, then so be it. I'm convinced there's more out there though. Things I've had work: Max MSU genestealers Max hive guard (this has hard counters and I've not figured out the right combination yet, tau just ruins your day) I have a few other oddballs I'm working on, but I'll wait to until I have more play experience under my belt. flyrants weren't 'countered' by anything there. it was a tournament with not a lot of cover with a lot of firepower being thrown around, with the usual results. if you think they're an 'i win!' button, you're doing it wrong. |
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Post by mattblowers on Jan 18, 2015 15:43:42 GMT
gigasnail you highlight my point exactly. No one is saying flyrants are an I win button. They are the best thing in the codex and our answer seems to always be "take more". As you just pointed out a lot of things can ruin our day, lack of cover being one of them. How'd Tyranids do? Didn't break the top 1/3. The only thing that broken our glass ceiling was a lictor list. It just seems to me that more creativity might be able to find some more answers. I'm not sure we have any answers if cover is short supply. That's just poor table design that will always lend itself to power armour armies, just the way GW likes it.
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Post by natelicious on Jan 18, 2015 18:04:25 GMT
Looking at HQ, what left is there? Swarmlord who's terribly overpriced, the Tervigon which was 5th's spammer and Deathleaper who doesn't do much more than Lictors. Mawlocs, Shrikes, Genestealer formations, and Lictors work well together. Good in a friendly enviroment anyway. Troop spam while not ideal for tournies does benefit from obj secured, and Maelstrom is all about objective control. So nothing from me that you probably haven't already thought over. I bet whatever lists become slightly more original still contain flyrants. Well looking at HQ Old One Eye is an interesting choice. His 4 base Armourbane S10 attacks and D3 S10 HoW are no joke and certainly cause target priority issues for your opponent. Yes, he is costly, and he doesn't have access to fleet, but Berserk Rampage can be a thing against Knights and heavy vehicles. Carnifex-heavy lists might consider him? I still think there's a place for the Pyrovore, whether it's foot-slogging or podding is in need of play-testing, but whether it's lighting up annoying Sniper Scouts in cover, Pathfinders and Fire Warriors in ruins, Necron Warriors or whatever, or just plain old No Escape burning Trukks or DE Venoms and the like. They project an intimidating bubble for those types of units! Sky-Slashers? Used in a similar fashion to Rippers? 12" movement instead of Deep Strike for less points, maybe add AG for anti-vehicle or TS for anti-MC? Ruture Cannon T-Fex. Stop laughing for a second and hear me out. Str10 long range can quite easily penetrate light to medium armour. Against Wyverns, Leman Russ S8 Battle Cannons, a penetrate result negates a round of shooting. Expensive, yes. But worth considering? I'd say yes. Would love to hear people's ideas on this. Don't laugh and dismiss, be constructive and let's get something out of these ideas. Even if they're bad, we might learn something. |
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Post by yowster12 on Jan 18, 2015 21:42:55 GMT
Looking at HQ, what left is there? Swarmlord who's terribly overpriced, the Tervigon which was 5th's spammer and Deathleaper who doesn't do much more than Lictors. Mawlocs, Shrikes, Genestealer formations, and Lictors work well together. Good in a friendly enviroment anyway. Troop spam while not ideal for tournies does benefit from obj secured, and Maelstrom is all about objective control. So nothing from me that you probably haven't already thought over. I bet whatever lists become slightly more original still contain flyrants. Well looking at HQ Old One Eye is an interesting choice. His 4 base Armourbane S10 attacks and D3 S10 HoW are no joke and certainly cause target priority issues for your opponent. Yes, he is costly, and he doesn't have access to fleet, but Berserk Rampage can be a thing against Knights and heavy vehicles. Carnifex-heavy lists might consider him? I still think there's a place for the Pyrovore, whether it's foot-slogging or podding is in need of play-testing, but whether it's lighting up annoying Sniper Scouts in cover, Pathfinders and Fire Warriors in ruins, Necron Warriors or whatever, or just plain old No Escape burning Trukks or DE Venoms and the like. They project an intimidating bubble for those types of units! Sky-Slashers? Used in a similar fashion to Rippers? 12" movement instead of Deep Strike for less points, maybe add AG for anti-vehicle or TS for anti-MC? Ruture Cannon T-Fex. Stop laughing for a second and hear me out. Str10 long range can quite easily penetrate light to medium armour. Against Wyverns, Leman Russ S8 Battle Cannons, a penetrate result negates a round of shooting. Expensive, yes. But worth considering? I'd say yes. Would love to hear people's ideas on this. Don't laugh and dismiss, be constructive and let's get something out of these ideas. Even if they're bad, we might learn something. I would say OOE is way too slow to catch a landraider without getting destroyed itself. Pyrovore might be playable in pods and only if you are not playing more than one Malanthrope. The problem with Ropture Cannon Tfex is not only the AP which means we dont blow up anything that is not open topped its that is BS3 platform and only 2Shots which is maybe one hit a turn and in many cases you dont hit at all. I love them but Acid Spray is the best option. I wish the above mentioned units worked. Sadly they are only useful in friendly games and "I dont care if I win. Me neither" enviroments. For our Tournament playing mayority in the hive they just cant cut it. |
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Post by eskimo on Jan 18, 2015 22:06:31 GMT
The problem with the things you mentioned are that they take up precious foc slots or are expensive as hell. Podding is finacially expensive but i do think they are a good route.
3 pods + Tfex with Electro shouldn't be half bad. Genestealer formation, shrikes moving up, and 2 more pods with Tervigons in. With a comms relay ofc.
If half of it survived to turn 3, should allow the lesser criters to score somewhat. Though nothing not previously thought of really and anyone willing to own 5 pods!
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 18, 2015 22:51:23 GMT
gigasnail you highlight my point exactly. No one is saying flyrants are an I win button. They are the best thing in the codex and our answer seems to always be "take more". As you just pointed out a lot of things can ruin our day, lack of cover being one of them. How'd Tyranids do? Didn't break the top 1/3. The only thing that broken our glass ceiling was a lictor list. It just seems to me that more creativity might be able to find some more answers. I'm not sure we have any answers if cover is short supply. That's just poor table design that will always lend itself to power armour armies, just the way GW likes it. the answer's probably not 'take more.' the answer's probably been what it's been for the last year or so: take 3, *maybe* 4, and fill the rest of your list with things that kill what you expect to see. i do not think there is a be-all nid list; there is too much out there and we lack the tools to easily deal with much of it. we had very similar threads start popping up when the lictor list won; i haven't seen that one sweeping the tournament scene either. we discussed at some length why that one did as well as it did then. conversely, having gone through years of games with (please do not swear) terrain (hello, 5th edition!) and bad cover saves, that an army that relies on cover saves didn't do well there shouldn't be a surprise. |
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 19, 2015 1:31:00 GMT
caledonian uprising just finished up over the pond; nids took 2nd and 5th. one of them was a triple flyrant + skyblight, but i dunno what he placed. more info to follow.
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Post by auretioustaak on Jan 19, 2015 2:23:19 GMT
...having gone through years of games with (please do not swear) terrain (hello, 5th edition!) and bad cover saves, that an army that relies on cover saves didn't do well there shouldn't be a surprise. 5th edition I played almost exclusively Space Wolves of some variant or another. Imperial armies, and indeed all other armies in 5th tended towards a few core tenants and one such was to bring your own cover. this generally meant massed transports that were cheap bringing both mobility and mobile cover for entire units. We do have those options now in the form of tyrannocytes and to a far lesser extent, sporocysts who can infiltrate to allow us key points of cover along an approach of our choosing. repeatedly blaming tournaments with sparse terrain as being the root cause of losses for tyranids is a pooir mans summation as we can bring our own mobile cover to the party now also. |
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 19, 2015 2:41:20 GMT
you're missing the point: there's a huge difference between 5+ cover and 2+ cover.
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Post by mattblowers on Jan 19, 2015 3:41:38 GMT
...having gone through years of games with (please do not swear) terrain (hello, 5th edition!) and bad cover saves, that an army that relies on cover saves didn't do well there shouldn't be a surprise. 5th edition I played almost exclusively Space Wolves of some variant or another. Imperial armies, and indeed all other armies in 5th tended towards a few core tenants and one such was to bring your own cover. this generally meant massed transports that were cheap bringing both mobility and mobile cover for entire units. We do have those options now in the form of tyrannocytes and to a far lesser extent, sporocysts who can infiltrate to allow us key points of cover along an approach of our choosing. repeatedly blaming tournaments with sparse terrain as being the root cause of losses for tyranids is a pooir mans summation as we can bring our own mobile cover to the party now also. poor man's summation? I don't even know what the (please do not swear) that means. Tyrannocytes are not "mobile cover", that's just silly talk. 30 gaunts, maybe. A tyranocyte is too easy to get around to be considered "mobile cover". I play much better with my nids on a table with cover. Especially LOS blocking cover. And yes, having vast table with just a few pieces of terrain is poor game design that gives unfair advantage to power armies. But like you said, you played Space Wolves in the 5th. I played IG, 'nids, and Eldar. ALL of which needed cover to work well. More so than the others, 'nids rely on cover as we have no invuls to speak of. I'm no rookie, I've been playing wargames longer than many of my opponents have been alive and terrain has always been vital. |
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 19, 2015 5:05:21 GMT
to continue. from Deshkar's post on the nid strat thread on dakka:
"Tyranids' placed 2nd and 5th at the 180 man Caledonian open.
Both were running Leviathan Primary for triple flyrants.
2nd place allied in Skyblight formation, while 5th allied Skytyrant formation. "
one data point does not a fact make, but no, i don't really give a lot of credence to flyrants being hard countered or outdated in a competitive setting. this is an event with multiple sicaran/fire raptor lists too so plenty of air force/AA in general use.
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Post by Freeman on Jan 19, 2015 12:25:02 GMT
I was 67th.
Lol
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