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Post by shiwan8 on Feb 25, 2015 23:09:53 GMT
BeeCee, I'm absolutely with you, except with baby kissing etc. Some times tough love is the only way.
Shadowfinder, the only way I can see them working is through making them so insignificant targets that they are overlooked by the opponent. Kind of like 10 gaunts after first blood. I have no idea how that would be done, again, reliably and in a way that in itself would not be self crippling. If the opponent does not have cover ignoring things or good hard counters, then they could serve a purpose on a trapdoor spider. Other than that I can't think of a thing.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 26, 2015 3:23:09 GMT
BeeCee, I'm absolutely with you, except with baby kissing etc. Some times tough love is the only way. Big difference between "tough love" and being an a$$. If you went far enough back you'd realize that raveners were admitted to being less than a top choice. You come in and drop your wisdom with zero backing and then tell us how we all have it wrong. Easing up on your approach wouldn't be baby kissing, it would just take being a little self aware. You clearly didn't read the earlier posts and jumped in with hyperbolic rubbish and then tried to defend it when you got called out on it. Every meaningful contributor to this thread conceeds that flyrants are the best thing we have in our codex, pointing that fact out is like insisting the earth is round during a talk about weather patterns: you are correct, but the fact is irrelevant. Thanks for derailing the thread.
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Post by shadowfinder on Feb 26, 2015 4:00:51 GMT
Back on topic. The local tourney i'm going to is allowing Cad and up to two formations if you want. so I was thinking. what the Stealer formation and the sub assault formation or something like the swarm if kept cheap. could it work? I know it is a lot of points but it fits te MSU format to a T.
Something like this.
+++ Test no set army template (1850pts) +++
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarm Brood 3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
Ripper Swarm Brood 3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Formation Detachment) ++
+ Formation +
Manufactorum Genestealers Genestealer Brood [5x Genestealer] Genestealer Brood [5x Genestealer] Genestealer Brood [5x Genestealer] Genestealer Brood [5x Genestealer] Genestealer Brood [5x Genestealer]
Subterranean Swarm [Mawloc] Ravener Brood Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener Brood Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener Brood Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Trygon [Bio-electric Pulse, Toxin Sacs] Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
I know these are the best but can the be modified to work in a way??? Maybe dropping the Sub assault and just take the trygons in the cad to open up other option maybe? After seeing lictor shame I am kind of jazzed about finding a different take in list building now. thanks for starting this thread Matt.
+++ Test no set army template (1845pts) +++
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Formation Detachment) ++
+ Formation +
Endless Swarm Hormagaunt Brood 10x Hormagaunt [10x Adrenal Glands] Hormagaunt Brood 10x Hormagaunt [10x Adrenal Glands] Hormagaunt Brood 10x Hormagaunt [10x Toxin Sacs] Termagant Brood [10x Fleshborer Termagant] Termagant Brood [10x Fleshborer Termagant] Termagant Brood [10x Fleshborer Termagant] Tyranid Warrior Brood [Barbed Strangler] Tyranid Warrior [Scything Talons] Tyranid Warrior [Scything Talons] Tyranid Warrior [Scything Talons]
Subterranean Swarm [Mawloc] Ravener Brood Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener Brood Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener Brood Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Ravener [Rending Claws] Trygon [Bio-electric Pulse, Toxin Sacs] Trygon Prime [Toxin Sacs]
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Post by powerbouncytommy on Feb 26, 2015 12:12:15 GMT
Horms are reliable to outpace shrikes 75% of the time, which is a good majority. I'd rather run gargs, but my collection limits me. Going to get some ready for adepticon. That's if the Shrikes don't run though right, just if they only move their 12"? But I guess running them might outpace the shrouded bubble anyway so they're already constrained for other reasons. Worth the 10 points for a Barbed Strangler or Venom Cannon then? It's just one less attack on one guy in return for a couple of pot shots.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 26, 2015 13:30:24 GMT
I know these are the best but can the be modified to work in a way??? Maybe dropping the Sub assault and just take the trygons in the cad to open up other option maybe? I don't think I'd take Trygons apart from the sub-swarm; you take a big risk that they come in from reserves staggered and just get torn down. Trygons do have a great WS and huge number of attacks. Sub-swarm has only been working for me because of the threat they pose when they all arrive at the same time. In most situations I take shrikes over raveners as they are better in most situations and give you more synapse.
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Post by shadowfinder on Feb 28, 2015 18:14:53 GMT
Well I have been working on a Null list which this may work on. It is not truly null list but Less then 90 point is a small sacrifice for the rest of the list not getting shot at. You given me some thing to work on Matt thanks for that.
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Post by almostmercury on Feb 28, 2015 19:43:10 GMT
How do you stop those 90 points from being killed?
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Post by rpricew on Feb 28, 2015 21:13:32 GMT
Our best answer to IKs are Stonecrusher Carnifexen. D3 S10 AP2 Armorbane HoW. CC Fexen are just as good but cheaper....except they swing after the D weapon (probably) kills them. Their D3 S9 HoW can do a number on the IKs too, but it's not even close to the Stonecrusher (Nor is anything else we have access to). It's main problem is that it has no access to fleet. 2 Stonecrushers (300 points), on the charge, do 3.64 HPs, 56% chance to add another D3. If you get 2 the thing is toast. If the stonecrushers are in seperate units, he has to dictate how many attacks go to each fex. With 3 attacks he'll miss once, and chances of one surviving are high, and when it swings the Knight will blow. My challenge with this is getting my Stonecrushers into combat with the Knights in my area. They are all well aware of what the Stonecrusher can do and with their 12" move, most players are smart enough to out maneuver the Stonecrushers until they can shoot them down. I'm not saying I disagree with you, just sharing my experience with them in my area.
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Post by Freeman on Feb 28, 2015 23:14:48 GMT
An inherent flaw with all carnifex as cc armour killers is that you are asking them to catch something that can move faster than they can.
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Post by gigasnail on Mar 1, 2015 0:02:51 GMT
made even worse in this case, because the IK will likely stomp them a new mudhole if they catch the fexes instead. podding them isn't an answer, because sure you can hem them in (pod + MC can close off a large area), but then you're just guaranteeing to get donkey punched.
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Post by jaysic on Mar 1, 2015 2:19:16 GMT
Our best answer to IKs are Stonecrusher Carnifexen. D3 S10 AP2 Armorbane HoW. CC Fexen are just as good but cheaper....except they swing after the D weapon (probably) kills them. Their D3 S9 HoW can do a number on the IKs too, but it's not even close to the Stonecrusher (Nor is anything else we have access to). It's main problem is that it has no access to fleet. 2 Stonecrushers (300 points), on the charge, do 3.64 HPs, 56% chance to add another D3. If you get 2 the thing is toast. If the stonecrushers are in seperate units, he has to dictate how many attacks go to each fex. With 3 attacks he'll miss once, and chances of one surviving are high, and when it swings the Knight will blow. My challenge with this is getting my Stonecrushers into combat with the Knights in my area. They are all well aware of what the Stonecrusher can do and with their 12" move, most players are smart enough to out maneuver the Stonecrushers until they can shoot them down. I'm not saying I disagree with you, just sharing my experience with them in my area. Yeah, Stonecrushers have their problems. On paper they are our best anti IK tool (points per HP stripped), assuming they get the charge. Fleet is my biggest problem with this, not their move. 6x4 isn't THAT big of a board, and I rarely have problems getting into H2H with an IK. Just make sure to get a fast unit (Gargs, horms) or a surprise unit (lictors) to tie it down for a turn and give your Fexen the best chance to charge. I'm not saying this is easy or that smart players can't react to counter it. @powerbouncertommy; That's correct, for the most part. Due to me using Horms I'm more limited at this. Building my gargoyles atm so hopefully that won't be an issue soon. Just remember; Run your Malanthropes/Venomthropes first, then your screen, then you CC unit (shrikes, in this case). I commonly do run Barbed Strangler on my shrikes to give them something to do turn 1 if they don't run. In fact, I used to run 3 units of biovores, 3 units of shrikes with BS, and a HT with a STC. Was 7 chances at pinning (this was in 6th when barrage still pinned)
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Post by shadowfinder on Mar 1, 2015 16:45:52 GMT
How do you stop those 90 points from being killed? I tested that out Saturday. Spore mine are very easy to hide out of line of site. I think I ran the formation at 120 trying out different size units of spores. Being able to infiltrate them is a huge bonus. I found larger unit able to even hurt Tanks and skimmers since they hit rear armor in assault. At lest I think they do.. They works great vs. tau as they didn't have anything to shoot at cause they couldn't see them. Ignore cover don't work if you can't see them to shoot in the first place. lol
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Post by almostmercury on Mar 1, 2015 17:06:47 GMT
Well, I'm happy it seems to be working for you. I would feel very uncomfortable trying to weather a round of fire with only spore mines.
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Post by shadowfinder on Mar 1, 2015 21:48:20 GMT
Here is my list with unwanted Tyranids that I am going to take to A local 20+ tournament in just a few weeks on the 1st. The list is designed to olmost be a null deployment. Only the spore formation in on the table. I can place the tyrants on the table if I go first to make sure they come in 2nd turn for sure by flying them turn 1. Depending on terrain on the board will of course decide placement. If I have the choice this list will go 2nd all the time. I don't really want to go first with it. but it will happen. Please talk me though this list. What's week or what match up you think would be problematic it.
+++ Tyranid Normal Cad Null Drop List (1849pts) +++
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Genestealer Brood [11x Genestealer]
Ripper Swarm Brood 3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
+ Fast Attack +
Ravener Brood Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws]
Ravener Brood Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws] Ravener [Deathspitter, Rending Claws]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex Brood Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex Brood Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Formation Detachment) ++
+ Formation +
Sporefield Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore] Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore] Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore] Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine] Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine] Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine]
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Post by gigasnail on Mar 1, 2015 22:44:32 GMT
made even worse in this case, because the IK will likely stomp them a new mudhole if they catch the fexes instead. podding them isn't an answer, because sure you can hem them in (pod + MC can close off a large area), but then you're just guaranteeing to get donkey punched. alternatively, i guess you can use the pods as blockers, and deploy the fexes behind. two pods denies a huge area; just be sure the IK can't get around them with that 12" move. maybe DS mucolids first, then the pods since the pods don't scatter onto other models. should be able to section off a large area this way. going to be table/terrain/enemy deployment dependent but it's something to look at.
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