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Post by jaysic on Feb 24, 2015 18:57:01 GMT
135 points will give you exactly 12 t4 wounds, no armor and you need to put at least 100p more to it just to keep the unit in the fight. What can we get with 235p? Flyrant. Is a flyrant better than 12 t4 wounds with no weapons or stuff to hurt anything well? Yes it is. Lictors are awesome because they are synergistic with something else that (if it manages to do what it is supposed to) is also awesome. Raveners have synergy with nothing. Same goes with shrikes. How about you put up a list that features these units and I'll shoot the list down if giga does not beat me to it? Gladly take you up on that challenge.. But one question. Your points don't make since. Are you saying 135 points of what unit vs. 230-240 flyrant?? was that shrikes // raveners. are we doing = points? Cause the tyrant has 75 point in upgrades to make it work in its most common format. They tyrant also plays a very different roll then both of those units. As for a list not a problem. I have ran Raveners at tourney's and done very well with them. Even won first prize. Even vs. good players like our own West Rider. With a good general raveners/shrikes are totally playable and worth considering. The guy playing lictors went all in with them. He had lots of practice and was probably told that it was a bad idea by many. But he had a idea and worked it out tell he made it work. So why not raveners shrikes or even Genestealers work with a set idea. In my meta I'm seeing a lot of IK so having all your units able to hurt them is something I have been working on. is it optimal no but could it work yes. I believe he was referring to the points you dump into shrikes to make them useable. 230 points gets you 5 fully upgraded RC shrikes, same point as a flyrant. MEQ shrikes kill 14.1, flyrant kills 2.9 TEQ shrikes kill 3.8, fly kills 1.5 THSS teq shrikes kill 2.9, fly 1.5 giga (please do not swear) on everything, so saying he'll shoot down a list quickly can be said about any list. Disenting views help spur innovation, though, so they're not always bad.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 24, 2015 19:16:39 GMT
He made the claim that they are worth 50% of what they cost. Then the challenge has to be that. At 50% base cost, I can build some pretty nifty builds with raveners/shrikes. It was knee jerk hyperbole (we are all guilty, except for flyrants, they are hard to exagerate), but then he tried to defend it.
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Post by FTGT-BeeCee on Feb 24, 2015 19:23:03 GMT
Well I think there is really no point in building a list with 15 point raveners/shrikes because we all know it would be nuts.
I am going to try out a lictorshame list and learn how to play it. So IF I ever win a tourney with it i'll have to throw Sean out a tearful thanks for the inspiration like an actress at the Oscars.
I really want to try out some sporocysts. It might just be justification to build the Mucolid in the kit.
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Post by shiwan8 on Feb 24, 2015 19:31:03 GMT
135 points will give you exactly 12 t4 wounds, no armor and you need to put at least 100p more to it just to keep the unit in the fight. What can we get with 235p? Flyrant. Is a flyrant better than 12 t4 wounds with no weapons or stuff to hurt anything well? Yes it is. Lictors are awesome because they are synergistic with something else that (if it manages to do what it is supposed to) is also awesome. Raveners have synergy with nothing. Same goes with shrikes. How about you put up a list that features these units and I'll shoot the list down if giga does not beat me to it? i think if you saw #lictorshame beforehand you would have said it was (please do not swear) too. just sayin' Very likely not, but I'd say it was not realistic tournament list and now I would have been proved wrong. The difference is, I play raveners and I know they are (please do not swear). 135 points will give you exactly 12 t4 wounds, no armor and you need to put at least 100p more to it just to keep the unit in the fight. What can we get with 235p? Flyrant. Is a flyrant better than 12 t4 wounds with no weapons or stuff to hurt anything well? Yes it is. Lictors are awesome because they are synergistic with something else that (if it manages to do what it is supposed to) is also awesome. Raveners have synergy with nothing. Same goes with shrikes. How about you put up a list that features these units and I'll shoot the list down if giga does not beat me to it? Gladly take you up on that challenge.. But one question. Your points don't make since. Are you saying 135 points of what unit vs. 230-240 flyrant?? was that shrikes // raveners. are we doing = points? Cause the tyrant has 75 point in upgrades to make it work in its most common format. They tyrant also plays a very different roll then both of those units. As for a list not a problem. I have ran Raveners at tourney's and done very well with them. Even won first prize. Even vs. good players like our own West Rider. With a good general raveners/shrikes are totally playable and worth considering. The guy playing lictors went all in with them. He had lots of practice and was probably told that it was a bad idea by many. But he had a idea and worked it out tell he made it work. So why not raveners shrikes or even Genestealers work with a set idea. In my meta I'm seeing a lot of IK so having all your units able to hurt them is something I have been working on. is it optimal no but could it work yes. 135p of raveners will just kill itself. You need synapse. That's another 100. The role of the tyrant is to provide synapse, buff our units and kill the enemy. Raveners can only kill and suck at that, no offense. Raveners are useless against the top lists. Hell, they are useless against mediocre lists. Against some kind of a joke, maybe, but not against anything serious. Raveners/shrikes/genestealers are all weak and independent units with no synergy what so ever with anything. That is why they will not work. Licktorshame worked because of the synergy with mawlocks. You can not kill an IK with raveners. Possible in theory, impossible in real life. The amount of points you are forced to throw against and IK in the form of raveners is...well...almost infinite. You'll have to hit, roll a 6 to rend and then roll another 5+ to glance. It is easier to shoot it down with autocannons and no-one is stupid enouh to make that their game plan. I believe he was referring to the points you dump into shrikes to make them useable. 230 points gets you 5 fully upgraded RC shrikes, same point as a flyrant. MEQ shrikes kill 14.1, flyrant kills 2.9 TEQ shrikes kill 3.8, fly kills 1.5 THSS teq shrikes kill 2.9, fly 1.5 giga (please do not swear) on everything, so saying he'll shoot down a list quickly can be said about any list. Disenting views help spur innovation, though, so they're not always bad. You forget that unlike the shrikes, the flyrant is alive after first turn and thus can continue to do damage. Shrikes and raveners die the second they come within lasgun range. And no, I did not refer to 5 shrikes. I referred to the 135p worth of raveners, which is 4 without ups. He made the claim that they are worth 50% of what they cost. Then the challenge has to be that. At 50% base cost, I can build some pretty nifty builds with raveners/shrikes. It was knee jerk hyperbole (we are all guilty, except for flyrants, they are hard to exagerate), but then he tried to defend it. The original claim was that they are good as is. So no, the challenge is not for 15p raveners. It's 30p raveners. Good luck with that. What you will see, if you are a realistic person, that the 15p cost for a ravener is the right cost considering that it will not get saves against shooting and it will be shot when it reveals it's head behind a los block, not to mention that it needs a baby sitter.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 24, 2015 19:43:58 GMT
Same (please do not swear) different day. You are the only one making the flyrant/ravener comparison. THAT was not the argument and you know it. I don't think raveners are a top choice, but they are far better than you are trying to make out. I'm not a top tier player and I can make them work, you need to try harder.
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Post by nurglitch on Feb 24, 2015 19:56:55 GMT
Nice to see Lictorshame has made people realize they need to think better. Cool beans.
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Post by gigasnail on Feb 24, 2015 20:12:32 GMT
I like shrikes, yall won me over long ago, so leave me out of this one kids.
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Post by jaysic on Feb 24, 2015 20:13:30 GMT
Shrikes, ravaners, and genes have no synergy?
I guess I should sell my malanthropes and venoms then.
It takes 134 las gun shots to kill 5 shrikes / ravaners. That's 670 points, or 335 if in rapid fire, assuming they don't have a cover save better than 5+.
I'm going to go on a limb here and say you played ravaners maybe 5 times, played them (please do not swear), and gave up on them. That doesn't make them bad, it makes you bad.
I've played over 150 games since our new codex dropped, all but 10 with at least 5 shrikes (which are better than ravaners 9/10 times). They almost always perform, except against very specific lists. If my opponent is pouring the necessary firepower into them to kill them, then they're ignoring malanthropes, hive tyrants, and other serious threats.
You can sit on your high horse and dump garbage on things you don't understand, proclaiming your ignorance as arrogance if you like. Your posts make it pretty clear you don't put thought into what say, and so I cannot take you seriously. Back up your claims with evidence or just keep parroting what other people say. Making outlandish statements and mocking people has no weight in this thread.
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Post by gigasnail on Feb 24, 2015 20:19:26 GMT
Really the shrikes v ravs argument to me boils down to cost. A unit of kitted shrikes can threaten anything, but the same points of ravs put more bodies on the ground (albeit that they aren't go8ng to have the same threat to a WK, Dk,etc because of lack of gear/biomorphs and have to fish for rends to do business).
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Post by shadowfinder on Feb 24, 2015 21:01:16 GMT
shiwan8 135p of raveners will just kill itself. You need synapse. That's another 100. The role of the tyrant is to provide synapse, buff our units and kill the enemy. Raveners can only kill and suck at that, no offense. Raveners are useless against the top lists. Hell, they are useless against mediocre lists. Against some kind of a joke, maybe, but not against anything serious. Raveners/shrikes/Genstealers are all weak and independent units with no synergy what so ever with anything. That is why they will not work. Licktorshame worked because of the synergy with mawloks. You can not kill an IK with raveners. Possible in theory, impossible in real life. The amount of points you are forced to throw against and IK in the form of raveners is...well...almost infinite. You'll have to hit, roll a 6 to rend and then roll another 5+ to glance. It is easier to shoot it down with autocannons and no-one is stupid enough to make that their game plan.[/font] My response. You are off on the point cost for the you it is 120 for 4 bar-bones. Your comparison is impossible to process. Have you ever run raveners in to combat before? what size unit to you use and what do you put on them? I am sorry but you are not giving context to go with your claim. Ideally you have pliantly of synapse in your list but things happen. I take it you have only rolled 3 or less with IB for them. It is possible to roll 4 or higher. Roll of a 6 can be almost godly. And with leviathan you can get a reroll on IB if you get a bad result. All this units you talked have synergies to be used. Even Genstealers. When some one says something is impossible in a dice game...... lets just say you need to play more to see the impossible happen more. I didn't say raveners or shrike would walk up to a IK and kill it by itself. if the unit is large enough it can easily over 2 turns. but on average a unit of 6 can take 1-2 hull points off to finish one off on the charge. We don't have autocannons. so why point them out? Rending walker and armor was how we did it in 5th. How is it not a option now? Raveners // are just part of the puzzle. Not the end all be all. we all have never said that. Your comment on raveners are being useless against the top lists, mediocre lists, is showing. Your telling all of us that have played with them that we are playing inexperienced players, badly written list that where meant to let us win. Sorry that doesn't fly with many of our experience's. I have personally played vs. top tire list with them and won. They where useful unit in the game and pulled their weight. You said{{{{You forget that unlike the shrikes, the flyrant is alive after first turn and thus can continue to do damage. Shrikes and raveners die the second they come within lasgun range. And no, I did not refer to 5 shrikes. I referred to the 135p worth of raveners, which is 4 without ups. }}} I am you just don't get it. I will gladly take 3 base raveners or shrikes vs a = unit of guard any day. I don't know about you but I get my flyrants focused down in one turn often. They are often the first thing targeted not the shrikes or raveners. I love your thoughts on what is should be equal for survivability between units.
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Post by shadowfinder on Feb 24, 2015 21:02:41 GMT
Really the shrikes v ravs argument to me boils down to cost. A unit of kitted shrikes can threaten anything, but the same points of ravs put more bodies on the ground (albeit that they aren't go8ng to have the same threat to a WK, Dk,etc because of lack of gear/biomorphs and have to fish for rends to do business). I will give that shrikes are a better tool book in the builds you can do for them.
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Post by biomassbob on Feb 24, 2015 22:06:05 GMT
I think it might also matter if we are talking about raveners and shrikes or whatever just using the codex or using slates/forgeworld, etc. Mattblowers - do you find ravs work well with just the codex or would a player need say a malanthrope for synpase/cover saves or something else from expansions to make them work decently. Seriously curious as I don't have any of the expansions and if I ever decide to pick up the 7th edition rules I doubt I would ever purchase forgeworld/expansions at this stage but I would like units like ravs to work (my favourite unit).
PS if you have already explained it in another thread let me know and I will look there.
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Post by jaysic on Feb 24, 2015 22:50:54 GMT
Really the shrikes v ravs argument to me boils down to cost. A unit of kitted shrikes can threaten anything, but the same points of ravs put more bodies on the ground (albeit that they aren't go8ng to have the same threat to a WK, Dk,etc because of lack of gear/biomorphs and have to fish for rends to do business). The argument is that you can tool out shrikes the same as Ravaners for the same amount of points. You lose i5 and moving like beasts, but you gain a large synapse bubble and HoW. Even the "moving like beasts" is debatable, as you can use your wings in the movement phase to move a full 12", at the cost of dangerous checks if starting/ending in terrain ( 11.4% chance of doing a wound to yourself). The only times ravaners beat out shrikes in this setup is if charging doesn't have you clip terrain, or if you fail IB and get a 6.
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Post by jaysic on Feb 24, 2015 22:57:07 GMT
I think it might also matter if we are talking about raveners and shrikes or whatever just using the codex or using slates/forgeworld, etc. Mattblowers - do you find ravs work well with just the codex or would a player need say a malanthrope for synpase/cover saves or something else from expansions to make them work decently. Seriously curious as I don't have any of the expansions and if I ever decide to pick up the 7th edition rules I doubt I would ever purchase forgeworld/expansions at this stage but I would like units like ravs to work (my favourite unit). PS if you have already explained it in another thread let me know and I will look there. You don't HAVE to go outside the codex. Malanthropes provide synapse and shrouding, plus a whole bunch of other special rules that makes them amazing support choices. If you want to avoid FW, then you can accomplish the same thing with a venomthrope brood and some other form of synapse. The idea for any of our CC units is to put a unit of gribblies (a "screen") in front of them to confer a 5+ cover, and combined with shrouding for a 3+ cover on your genes/shrikes/ravaners/fexen/whatever. When you get to your target, you charge with your screen (or malanthropes) to eat the overwatch, then you charge your hammer down their throats. This is all in case your melee unit gets targeted. Typically enemy fire will be going at the closest unit (the "screen"), whatever is providing shrouding, or MCs. A good CC unit is hitting turn 2, or turn 3 if they're slow. For some reason people are much more afraid of a Melyrant getting into combat than a unit of 5 shrikes and will target it first, even though the shrikes do far more damage and for less points.
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Post by gigasnail on Feb 24, 2015 23:36:22 GMT
Venoms are fine, to soak fire turn 1. Be shocked if they live longer. This is the problem with them. Then your screen goes from a 3+ to a 5+ and things begin to suck rapidly. If the opponent has HVMP, then it's up to the opponent to determine if it's better to just shoot the threats, or kill the venoms and smoke the threats more easily with the non-cover ignoring elements if his own army. A single wave serpent will erase them. If he has TFC, wyverns, or other cover ignoring shots en masse, then he can ignore then venoms until they need to die in favor of gibbing your ground forces and other immediate problems. Those are the issues with venoms. Malanthropes are much more durable. jaysic if you're just running RC, it's a toss up between beast move/not slowed by terrain and a jump unit having synapse. But if you're just putting RC on shrikes, you're ignoring the options that make them great. Kind of pointless, with the only thing to recommend it would be to get a couple more bodies on the ground for the same points (again, sacrificing shrikes ability to deal with annoying threats consistently).
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