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Post by gigasnail on Sept 20, 2014 18:19:24 GMT
presenting expensive targets to die like roaches is not really much of a strategy. gargoyles and gants are one thing, they're cheap and you don't care when they die. stealers are 14ppm and die just as easily to the usual suspects. you can't rely on being able to g2g past turn 1 (synapse likely to catch up to you), unless you infiltrate them way out in the wings where half their points in rippers will do the same thing.
stealers need a 'without number' formation.
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Post by tag8833 on Sept 21, 2014 17:04:36 GMT
Not like expensive rippers at all. They can GtG are not as easily hidden but kick ass in CQC. And afterwards they hide again. Thing is rippers hide well but lack the punch genestealers pack. And can't help that much as a counter assault unit if at all. Yet as someone who plays both of them in his lists(friendlies but still tough opponents) I considet stealers my counter assault exclusive unit. Park in objective and see area denial at its finest. People still fears stealers. And so they will either catch lots of fire or deny area like nobody's business. GTG defeats your counter assault strategy, and isn't near as effective as staying out of LOS, but Lets just consider for a moment the viability of a min squad of Genestealers(70 Points) vs 5 Rippers with DS (75 points) in assault vs a 5 man squad of Tactical marines. Genestealers kill them in 4 rounds of assault and emerge with 2 surviving models. Genestealers could not beat another 5 marines. Rippers kill them in 5 rounds of assault and emerge with all 5 surviving models. Rippers could beat another 5 marines. Which one is the better counter assault unit? Probably still Genestealers, but it is darn close.
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Post by mattblowers on Sept 22, 2014 1:46:34 GMT
tag: I2 vs I6 and WS2 vs WS6 plus 1 ripper dies for each S6 wound inflicted. I like ripppers, but melee potential isn't even close.
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 22, 2014 1:55:53 GMT
it depends. keep rippers away from melee specialists and melee walkers and they'll maul standard infantry just fine. fearless, 3 wounds and 4 attacks base isn't anything to sneeze at. will they go toe to toe with death company? lol, no. will they (please do not swear) up TAC marines, scouts, cultists, tau, and most eldar? sure will. how often do you really see PF on everything now?
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Post by yowster12 on Sept 22, 2014 2:16:39 GMT
Besides I don't see how GtG can ruin the counter assault unit potential. We are the only army that can at will and without much hassle stand up and be ready to counter assault.
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 22, 2014 2:41:24 GMT
if you have a synapse unit to send conveniently where you need it.
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Post by voraciousapathy on Sept 22, 2014 10:27:56 GMT
Why would you Go To Ground voluntarily if you didn't? Genestealers are a counterassault unit. I know you really, really want to think of them as primary assaulters, but you'd be a simpleton if you did so. They have a 5+ save, you dumb dummy. Bolter overwatch and flamers will melt them down to combat ineffectiveness, no problem, while crossing No Man's Land, even IF they have Catalyst. No. No, you don't throw away 200-300 points on a suicide squad. That's like buying a Land Raider to die. You aim to cluster objectives near midfield, preferably in terrain, and park your 'Stealers in it with Infiltrate, and obviously out of LOS as well, if possible. Then, you move your army up to join them by Turn 2, and you take over midfield. Your goal in most games is to hold those objectives -- 'Stealers make a very, very unappealing target to try to wrestle objectives away from, especially in cover. The only combats 'Stealers should ever be joining, unless you have overwhelming numbers, is a combat that was already started, units who are pinned, or units whom you have already swamped with things like Gargoyles and Hormagaunts. If you disagree, that's okay. I don't care.
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Post by tylertt on Sept 22, 2014 11:56:15 GMT
To the OP, do you have any Batreps or anything to post up to support a lot of your tactics? You just stand by Genestealers and these tactics working for you, and I am curious if you have actual results.
(I only have skimmed through this thread, but didn't notice any batreps or evidence of these tactics in use)
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Post by tag8833 on Sept 22, 2014 15:07:23 GMT
Why would you Go To Ground voluntarily if you didn't? Genestealers are a counterassault unit. I know you really, really want to think of them as primary assaulters, but you'd be a simpleton if you did so. They have a 5+ save, you dumb dummy. Bolter overwatch and flamers will melt them down to combat ineffectiveness, no problem, while crossing No Man's Land, even IF they have Catalyst. No. No, you don't throw away 200-300 points on a suicide squad. That's like buying a Land Raider to die. You aim to cluster objectives near midfield, preferably in terrain, and park your 'Stealers in it with Infiltrate, and obviously out of LOS as well, if possible. Then, you move your army up to join them by Turn 2, and you take over midfield. Your goal in most games is to hold those objectives -- 'Stealers make a very, very unappealing target to try to wrestle objectives away from, especially in cover. The only combats 'Stealers should ever be joining, unless you have overwhelming numbers, is a combat that was already started, units who are pinned, or units whom you have already swamped with things like Gargoyles and Hormagaunts. If you disagree, that's okay. I don't care. I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. It seems like you are mainly taking exception at my word choice (Suicide Squad) when I was arguing that they make a bad place to hide a warlord. I agree they shouldn't be eating overwatch. I agree you shouldn't throw them away to die. I agree that their primary usage is board control. The only place I disagree is that I think they are safer locked in close combat than they are standing on an objective waiting to be shot, I feel like that is throwing them away much more than sending them into combat. I think if you read my original post you will find much that you agree with. To the OP, do you have any Batreps or anything to post up to support a lot of your tactics? You just stand by Genestealers and these tactics working for you, and I am curious if you have actual results. (I only have skimmed through this thread, but didn't notice any batreps or evidence of these tactics in use) I'm probably 8-3 with this tactic, though at least one of my losses was when I was still ironing it out. That doesn't mean it is a top tier competitive tactic. I play this mainly when I'm playing other people experimenting with lists. It is something that I do if I fear my opponent won't bring any anti-air, and thus I can't run any FMC's. I'm sorry I haven't run any proper batreps. The most memorable games was one of my loses which involved my genestealers getting demolished by a warp speeded Mephiston (I9 or so) and Corbolo (2+ FNP) who went on to force weapon swarmlord to death. I was tabled except for my 2 Crones in that game. In another game, I did an extreme multi-assault against an I.G. army, 3 large infantry squads and a Tank (Chimera, if I recall). I won that combat and swept them all. There was one game against Space Wolves where I got 3 Genestealers into assault with a thunderfire Cannon (Terchmarine or Servitor or whatever the operate is). They had already killed a Dreadnoughts, but could not roll any 6's to kill that TFC operator in 3 rounds of combat. The squad was small because 2 thunderfires laid into them. One game was notable because the shear threat of them convinced my opponent playing 2 Wraith Knights, and a pile of Wraith Guard in wave serpents to hug the back table edge. Using MSU genestealers I'm probably 2-11 or so. Outflanking Genestealers I'm 1-6 or so. Using 2 units of 10+, I'm about 3-5. It has been my personal crusade to find a way to make genestealers function in a tyranid list, and I have been putting in the legwork attempting to accomplish it. This tactica is the the results of my Mathhammer / Theoryhammer / and in-game experimentation. That doesn't make my conclusions definitive or even necessarily correct, but it does make me confident enough to share them and weather the lack of politeness that is found every time a tactic challenges conventional wisdom from previous editions of 40k, or attempts to make a measured positive argument. Honestly, my biggest hope was to find someone who disagreed with me and offered an alternative way to run Genestealers effectively like Mattblowers: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/47716/spamming-genestealers
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 22, 2014 19:23:03 GMT
That was a single game.
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Post by tag8833 on Sept 22, 2014 19:47:27 GMT
True, and I would consider my approach to be a bit more balanced (fewer hard counters). But in my effort to validate effective genestealer strategy, I only ever had 35 genestealers, and sometimes borrowed or proxied a few, but never explored quite that many units. I ran 6 min squads twice, and three max squads once. I couldn't really pull his entire list off in my meta because multiple formations are frowned upon, but I could certainly run 55 Genestealers in 11 min squads and see what happens.
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 23, 2014 1:00:43 GMT
my phone ate my response. tl;dr: by all means man explore the options and play it out. i'm not convinced this is a good idea in any way in a larger environment but it'd hardly be the first time i was wrong. MSU marines works because of 3+ armor, pods, and cheap OS vehicles. stealers don't have these things to fall back on, and when they are faced with TFC and the like, they get no saves whatsoever. it's not a good look.
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Post by mattblowers on Sept 23, 2014 3:17:31 GMT
+1. I wasn't championing anything either other than trying to see if it could work. I have a chance to give it another go with someone tomorrow, but I'm gonna bail on that game for a WHFB with my Lizzards if my opponent shows.
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Post by voraciousapathy on Sept 24, 2014 13:46:28 GMT
You like Matt's write-up?
Here's a quote to sum up what I'm saying, straight from that write-up you linked: "It's a funny thing, you can't bum rush, but neither can you passively wait your turn. It's more jui-jitsu: you have to wait for your opponent to make a move and then use that to your own advantage."
Use Infiltrate to park yourself on objectives early, and GTG/Synapse to shrug off enemy firepower. You want the enemy to come to you, so you don't have to cross No Man's Land with T4 and a 5+ save. As Sun Tzu said, "First make yourself invincible, then wait for your opponent to make a mistake," and also "If facing a foe who is reluctant to engage, rather than digging him out of his hole, claim something of his which he cannot allow you to have, even if you have no hope of holding it against his reprisal."
I'll say this much: Genestealer spam with Flyrant support CRUSHES people in Maelstrom missions.
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Post by tag8833 on Sept 24, 2014 14:21:29 GMT
You like Matt's write-up? Here's a quote to sum up what I'm saying, straight from that write-up you linked: "It's a funny thing, you can't bum rush, but neither can you passively wait your turn. It's more jui-jitsu: you have to wait for your opponent to make a move and then use that to your own advantage." Use Infiltrate to park yourself on objectives early, and GTG/Synapse to shrug off enemy firepower. You want the enemy to come to you, so you don't have to cross No Man's Land with T4 and a 5+ save. As Sun Tzu said, "First make yourself invincible, then wait for your opponent to make a mistake," and also "If facing a foe who is reluctant to engage, rather than digging him out of his hole, claim something of his which he cannot allow you to have, even if you have no hope of holding it against his reprisal." I'll say this much: Genestealer spam with Flyrant support CRUSHES people in Maelstrom missions. My instincts tell me that if I had been the eldar player that he was facing, I would have beat him, and could have done so consistently if he outflanked so many units. That being said, I did greatly appreciate his contribution. I plan to playtest it with 11 min Genestealer squads vs a variety of opponents when the opportunity presents.
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