|
|
Post by tag8833 on Sept 15, 2014 22:37:08 GMT
I posted this in a thread on dakka, and it spawned interesting discussions.
Firstly, and this is important. Genestealers suck. They are overcosted by 1/2 and lack the mobility options of Shrikes and Raveners (who have a similar killing power). Even Hormagants are faster. They lack the survivability of a house fly, and they need support to be effective. There are very, very few scenarios where they would make a better choice than Shrikes or Raveners in an army. Or even Hormagants.
However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off.
1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here.
1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it.
2) Run them in large squads. 15 is a good number. Never less than 10. This helps with support as well.
3) Support them. There are two ways to do so.
3A) Malanthropes. To be useful at all, Genestealers need shrouded. To be effective they need preferred enemy. The Malanthrope can help with both. It can also tank wounds on its 3+, and eat challenges. If Genestealers could take a Malanthrope instead of a brood lord, they would be a very good unit. I think 2 Malanthropes are best if you are running Genestealers.
3B) Venom + Swarmlord. Swarmlord can give Genestealers furious charge, preferred enemy, and potentially Feel No Pain. That is a ton of support. If only it didn't come in such an expensive package.
4) Don't outflank them. It may seem like you can outflank them as a way to offset their abysmal mobility. However, if you do so, the might not come in turn 2, and they can't start seriously contributing until turn 3 or 4. It is a costly unit to not have contribute for 1/2 of the game.
5) Do Infiltrate them. Unless you are facing drop pods, or are confident you opponent will put something in range for a turn 1 charge, you want these genestealers at midfield asap. However there are some tricks.
5A) Focus fire is not a part of the 7th edition rulebook. Abuse this. Infiltrate the Genestealers to midfield making sure that as many as possible are in ruins, and that those models are closer to the enemy than the models out of ruins.
5B) Remember the support. Congaline the genestealers back to your deployment zone to make sure they get Shrouded from a venom or malan. If you do this, the 1st few genestealers get a 2+ cover save.
5C) Fear Flamers. If you enemy has flamers in their army you want to infiltrate somewhere that the flamers can't get to you on turn 1.
6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here.
7) Gargoyles. Genestealers are bad at being overwatched. That means you've got to get something to them ASAP to help them eat overwatch. Gargoyles are that thing. Also use the gargoyles to screen genestealers whenever possible. Hormagants can work this way, but are not as good as gargoyles.
7A) Sometimes you can use gants or gargoyles to bring more units into a combat. Because combat results are all added together, you might be able to do enough wounds with your genestealers to sweep a couple units at a time. If not, once in a while you can use this trick to keep the genestealers in combat on your opponent's turn.
8) Multi-Assault. Genestealers suffer from a similar problem to the Dima. In the current age of min sized squads, they can kill those squads too effectively, and not stay locked in combat so that they can survive opponent's shooting. However, Genestealers have a solution to this that Dima's don't. With many models, they can multi assault. A good choice is to multi-assault them into a Rhino or other vehicle, and also into a unit that they can stay locked with. Try to put as many attacks in the first round against the vehicle so that you don't wipe out the other unit. You can always kill them on your opponent's turn.
9) Don't take them against opponents who ignore cover Without a cover save they are dead. Wave serpent spam, Tau are genestealer kryptonite.
10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done.
We aren't going to see Genestealers at top table any time soon, but if you follow these suggestions you can use them to help you win games.
|
|
|
|
Post by yoritomo on Sept 16, 2014 1:33:30 GMT
Well this was an absolute wast of time. Firstly, and this is important. Genestealers suck. What is the point of this? If genestealers suck so much then why write a tactical article about them? Your tactical article should consist of one point, don't take genestelaers. Any other point you have is contradicted by the fact that the first thing you point out is how much genestealers suck. They are overcosted by 1/2 and lack the mobility options of Shrikes and Raveners (who have a similar killing power). Even Hormagants are faster. They lack the survivability of a house fly, and they need support to be effective. There are very, very few scenarios where they would make a better choice than Shrikes or Raveners in an army. Or even Hormagants. Again, this should just be re-written to say don't take genestealers. I can see that you've gone over all the cons of taking genestelaer, but what about the pros? According to you there are none (or you just assume we know them but can't figure out the down sides for ourselves, because we must be idiots). So far your first paragraph says you should never take genestealers and should take raveners, shrikes, or hormagaunts instead. Great start to a tactical article. However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off. Ohhh, ten suggestions on how to use genestealers from someone who's been telling us we shouldn't take them. I'm waiting to read this with baited breath [/sarcasm] 1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here. 1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it. Well, first off I dissagree with your point that genestealers are too expensive already, but that's a whole different article to explain that. I also don't agree with the blanket statement. Yes, you should keep the points down on models you expect to die, but 6th edition codex has removed the requirement for the whole brood to be upgraded. So now I can only upgrade the five genestealers out of ten who I expect to make it into close combat. I get the same "value" out of the cheap stealers but still get the added power out of the ones that I put points into. More than that, any upgrade needs to have a cost benefit anaylsis done before you take it (or dismiss it). This is something you obviously haven't done with the broodlord. Yes, the horror isn't a power you're going to use a lot, but he also has access to the primus power which gives him synapse. This is a big deal given how important synapse is in this codex. He's also got 3 wounds and 4 attacks, so he can take two of your wounds (at a better save) before you start to lose combat power. I'm not in the auto include a broodlord camp, but there is definitely a good argument for taking one. 2) Run them in large squads. 15 is a good number. Never less than 10. This helps with support as well. You realize that is over 200 points in stealers right? I mean, if I spent a thousand points in stealers I'm sure that I'd get some into close combat without even trying. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can't just throw points at stealers just to make them work because you could potentially screw the rest of your army. I'd also like to point out that larger broods are harder to hide. 15 stealers can take a pounding crossing the gap, but they are guaranteed to take a pounding. Smaller broods can't absorb as much fire, but they do make the best use of cover and require more effort per model to kill than an oversized brood. 3) Support them. There are two ways to do so. 3A) Malanthropes. To be useful at all, Genestealers need shrouded. To be effective they need preferred enemy. The Malanthrope can help with both. It can also tank wounds on its 3+, and eat challenges. If Genestealers could take a Malanthrope instead of a brood lord, they would be a very good unit. I think 2 Malanthropes are best if you are running Genestealers. 3B) Venom + Swarmlord. Swarmlord can give Genestealers furious charge, preferred enemy, and potentially Feel No Pain. That is a ton of support. If only it didn't come in such an expensive package. Congratulations on your promotion Captain Obvious. Saying any tyranid unit needs support is like saying fish need water. However, you are still wrong on your conclusions. Genestealers only need to be shrouded if you choose to take absurdly large broods, if you take a smaller brood then you should be able to get by with terrain. Heck, keeping them out of line of sight is infinitely better and doesn't require support. I also dissagree that they need bonus in combat. They are Ws 6, S 4, rending. If you do the math you'd see that a stealer is just as effective in combat as a space marine with a power weapon. When what the last time you heard anybody claim that a space marine needed help in close combat. Besides, 3b is talking about taking 350 points in order to make your 200 point unit of stealer playable. Oh, and you lose the ability to take a second flyrant when you do this. This is a bad idea. 4) Don't outflank them. It may seem like you can outflank them as a way to offset their abysmal mobility. However, if you do so, the might not come in turn 2, and they can't start seriously contributing until turn 3 or 4. It is a costly unit to not have contribute for 1/2 of the game. I actually agree with you on this. Moving on. 5) Do Infiltrate them. Unless you are facing drop pods, or are confident you opponent will put something in range for a turn 1 charge, you want these genestealers at midfield asap. However there are some tricks. 5A) Focus fire is not a part of the 7th edition rulebook. Abuse this. Infiltrate the Genestealers to midfield making sure that as many as possible are in ruins, and that those models are closer to the enemy than the models out of ruins. 5B) Remember the support. Congaline the genestealers back to your deployment zone to make sure they get Shrouded from a venom or malan. If you do this, the 1st few genestealers get a 2+ cover save. 5C) Fear Flamers. If you enemy has flamers in their army you want to infiltrate somewhere that the flamers can't get to you on turn 1. Again you are wrong here. Getting your stealers midfield "asap" means you're trying to get your stealers killed asap. People need to wake up. Every army you're going to face is as mobile, if not more mobile than the tyranid army. Bull rushing your opponent isn't going to work because your opponent can just walk away faster than you can come at them. This is why getting your genestealers midfield asap is a terrible idea, all it does is draw aggro to your stealers while any unit threatened just walk away. Besides, you're also assuming that your opponent is dumb enough to shoot at a unit with a 2+ save instead of the venomthrope/malenthrope. Oh, and by the way, once that venomthrope, malenthrope dies you're going to have 5-7 "conga line stealers" that are a turn away from combat than the rest of the brood. And FYI, I've been playing this game for around 20 years and I've never feared a flamer. If you're afraid of a flamer then you probably need to play a different army. 6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here. Yes, distractions are good. However, in order for a distraction to be good it needs to penalize your opponent for ignoring it. Lictors do not do this and are a terrible distraction. Ditto for the Deathleaper, they are not useful here. Gargoyles are a great unit and have many uses, distraction is not one of those uses. I feel that there are much better ways to use your gargoyles. 7) Gargoyles. Genestealers are bad at being overwatched. That means you've got to get something to them ASAP to help them eat overwatch. Gargoyles are that thing. Also use the gargoyles to screen genestealers whenever possible. Hormagants can work this way, but are not as good as gargoyles. 7A) Sometimes you can use gants or gargoyles to bring more units into a combat. Because combat results are all added together, you might be able to do enough wounds with your genestealers to sweep a couple units at a time. If not, once in a while you can use this trick to keep the genestealers in combat on your opponent's turn. Um, have you done the math on overwatch? You shouldn't be scared of it. By the number a 10 man tact squad only gets 3 hits, and half of them wound. That's 2 genestealers you lose to overwatch. If a 15 man brood can't suck up 2 wounds then you need to re-evaluate how you play. Besides, while assaulting with a second unit is prefered, it isn't going to happen if you infiltrate them. Putting your genestealers 12" in front of your army means that nothing is going to move fast enough to reach them before they assault. Gargoyles maybe, but now you are required to buy gargoyles just like you are required to by malenthropes or venomthropes or a swarm lord. How many points do you expect to spend just to make a 200 point unit of stealers work? 8) Multi-Assault. Genestealers suffer from a similar problem to the Dima. In the current age of min sized squads, they can kill those squads too effectively, and not stay locked in combat so that they can survive opponent's shooting. However, Genestealers have a solution to this that Dima's don't. With many models, they can multi assault. A good choice is to multi-assault them into a Rhino or other vehicle, and also into a unit that they can stay locked with. Try to put as many attacks in the first round against the vehicle so that you don't wipe out the other unit. You can always kill them on your opponent's turn. You know, tyranids are the only army I've ever seen that is worried about killing too much. No other army ever asks "how do I make sure I don't kill things?" Multi-assaulting is a terrible idea as it costs you a third of your attacks. Actually, if you're trying not to kill things I guess this is a good thing. I however, like to kill things, so I will try to avoid this at all costs. It should be noted that with the amount of points you've spent on stealers and units to support stealers you are almost required to multi-assault in order to kill enough units by the time the game ends. Also, multi-assaulting vehicles to stay in combat is also a terrible idea. If you do kill your target then the vehicle just drives off and you are still hung out to dry next turn. Unless you are trying to reduce the number of attacks you get, in which case I think you are an idiot. 9) Don't take them against opponents who ignore cover Without a cover save they are dead. Wave serpent spam, Tau are genestealer kryptonite. It's a good thing people don't build take all comers lists then. It's also good that the most popular armies right not don't have ignore cover weapons. Oh wait... 10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done. Or you could put your objectives where you want your units to be at the end of the game insetad of close to your deployment zone. If you have to wait for your genestealers to die before you begin to worry about taking objectives then you're going to be in trouble. And this assumes that you're only going to be left with 5 genestealers at some point. Heaven forbid they get into a prolonged combat. Or your opponent shoots at them once you pull them back onto an objective. Nobody's ever done that. We aren't going to see Genestealers at top table any time soon, but if you follow these suggestions you can use them to help you win games. Hardly. If spending 500-600 points just to get one good assault out of 1 unit is going to win you a game then I need to start playing the people you play on a regular basis. |
|
|
|
Post by tag8833 on Sept 16, 2014 4:43:53 GMT
I assume your genestealer tactica involves taking broods of 5, starting them in your deployment zone, and walking them towards the nearest flamers? I imagine that might work well in your meta where space marines are considered close combat powerhouses. /Sarcasm
But seriously, I would be interested in hearing you strategies for using genestealers where you find them appropriately costed, I think your rush to disagree with me probably overstates the differences in our play styles. I wrote this tactica mainly for new tyranid players who desperately wanted to use genestealers, but weren't able to figure out how to do so and still win games. What would your advice to those players be?
|
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Sept 16, 2014 4:51:54 GMT
if i had to take stealers? take a couple largish broods, 15-20. infiltrate them in ruins/rubble, midfield. fish for master of ambush. infiltrate your flyrant warlord, a dakkafex brood, and a malanthrope brood along with them. wind up, point at enemy, release. if you don't get master of ambush, conquerer of cities is another good one with stealth in ruins. 3+ save w/o having to g2g will help them tremendously.
i just don't think they're really worth it. servo skulls will kind of ruin your day.
|
|
|
|
Post by tag8833 on Sept 16, 2014 6:00:44 GMT
If anyone is interested, here is a math hammer analysis of several of our close combat options. | Model | Cost | # in 100 | Bolters to Kill | GEQ Kills | MEQ Kills | TEQ Kills | | Genestealer | 14 | 7.14 | 21.43 | 3.97 | 2.65 | 1.59 | | w/ Scything Talons | 18 | 5.56 | 16.67 | 4.63 | 3.09 | 1.85 | | w/ Adrenals | 16 | 6.25 | 18.75 | 4.17 | 2.78 | 1.62 | | w/ Poison | 17 | 5.88 | 17.65 | 4.36 | 2.47 | 1.31 | | Hormagants | 5 | 20.00 | 45.00 | 5.00 | 2.22 | 1.11 | | w/ Adrenals | 7 | 14.29 | 32.14 | 4.76 | 2.38 | 1.19 | | w/ Poison | 8 | 12.50 | 28.13 | 3.13 | 2.08 | 1.04 | | Raveners | 30 | 3.33 | 30.00 | 2.96 | 1.48 | 0.74 | | W/ RC | 35 | 2.86 | 25.71 | 3.17 | 2.12 | 1.27 |
Now here is an analysis on the charge that includes the charge bonus, and eating overwatch from 10 Tac Marines with bolters. | Model | Cost | # in 100 | Died to Overwatch | GEQ Kills | MEQ Kills | TEQ Kills | | Genestealer | 14 | 7.14 | 2 | 4.29 | 2.86 | 1.71 | | w/ Scything Talons | 18 | 5.56 | 2 | 3.95 | 2.63 | 1.58 | | w/ Adrenals | 16 | 6.25 | 2 | 4.25 | 2.83 | 1.65 | | w/ Poison | 17 | 5.88 | 2 | 4.31 | 2.44 | 1.29 | | Hormagants | 5 | 20.00 | 2 | 6.75 | 3.00 | 1.50 | | w/ Adrenals | 7 | 14.29 | 2 | 6.14 | 3.07 | 1.54 | | w/ Poison | 8 | 12.50 | 2 | 3.94 | 2.63 | 1.31 | | Raveners | 30 | 3.33 | 0 | 3.70 | 1.85 | 0.93 | | W/ RC | 35 | 2.86 | 0 | 3.97 | 2.65 | 1.59 |
I think these comparisons demonstrate the strengths and weaknesses of genestealers in a way that completely backs up my in game experience. They hit hard, and do good damage, but have really low survivability. They die like gants, but cost 3 times as much. It also supports my strategies. By giving the 1st few a 2+ cover save, I am compensating for their lack of survivability. By taking them in large broods, and eating overwatch for them, I am compensating for the tendency for their damage dealing potential to quickly decrease. It might also highlight why Yoritomo feels like Scything Talons are useful. My Stealers do most of their damage on the charge. They rarely get charged themselves, and they rarely spend more than 2 rounds locked. If he is taking smaller broods, they are getting charged more often, and are locked in combat for longer. I find Genestealers survivability so low, I wonder how it ranks in the scale of all of 40k. What units are there that would have a very low survivability point for point? My first thought is Burna Boyz who are even worse than Genestealers, what else? |
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Sept 16, 2014 6:10:58 GMT
point for point? that's a tall order.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jabberwocky on Sept 16, 2014 12:04:19 GMT
If you have access to ap3, then there are plenty of expensive units that die just as quickly as stealers. Some more expensive that die even faster.
If you are looking purely at ap5 though, then it's pretty much just elite things like harlequins and mandrakes that no one takes.
As far as the tactica goes, I found that most of the advice is generic tactics that can be applied to many of our units. Nothing really new but possibly useful to some people.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yautja on Sept 16, 2014 16:01:03 GMT
However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off. 1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here. 1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it. I disagree. With limited mobility, you're going to want to assault ANYTHING that's in range. With that being the case, having a Broodlord to potentially pin your assault target and not incur Overwatch fire can be priceless for units with a mere 5+ save. |
|
|
|
Post by Jabberwocky on Sept 16, 2014 16:06:58 GMT
The broodlord can also be the warlord, freeing up the flyrants to be fully offensive.
|
|
|
|
Post by yoritomo on Sept 16, 2014 16:33:25 GMT
I assume your genestealer tactica involves taking broods of 5, starting them in your deployment zone, and walking them towards the nearest flamers? I imagine that might work well in your meta where space marines are considered close combat powerhouses. /Sarcasm But seriously, I would be interested in hearing you strategies for using genestealers where you find them appropriately costed, I think your rush to disagree with me probably overstates the differences in our play styles. I wrote this tactica mainly for new tyranid players who desperately wanted to use genestealers, but weren't able to figure out how to do so and still win games. What would your advice to those players be? Quite the contary. I also find that a brood of stealers looses its combat effectiveness around 6 models. While taking a broodlord compensates a little, I still find that small squads can't hold their own. Just because small broods don't work doesn't mean we have to overcompensate by taking broods that are too large. Back in 4th edition I did a study on gaunts. One of the things I looked at was how large broods of gaunts played differently than smaller broods. One of the problems that large broods of gaunts had was that it couldn't use cover effectively, which would lead to more casualties. This was offset by the fact that large broods were harder to deal with by the shear weight of the models in the brood. When you start to take exceptionally large broods of genestealers they start to act like those large broods of gaunts. The difference is that you can afford to lose 4 point gaunts by the bucket, 14 points stealers can't be lost that way. So by using your genestealers like a gaunt brood you're going to find that they are over priced for what they do, which I believe is a conclusion you've already arrived at. The problem here is that point for point a genestealer is the best model in close combat once it gets into assault. You see, a genestealer is priced right for what it can do, the problem it has is that the tyranid army has no effective way to get its unit into assault. Yes, this problem might be solved by slashing the point cost of genestelaers, but I don't think this is the case. The underlying problem still remains, other armies are more maneuverable that tyranids and can choose to disengage instead of being assaulted. A one point stealer is still overpriced if your opponent can simply walk away from the threat. The real way to make genestealers work is to find a way that your opponent can't simply move away from them. There are several ways to do this. The easiest way to do this is through maneuvering your army. If your army has a large enough footprint and you press it against your opponent's army then he'll lose his ability to maneuver and you can engage with your genestealers. This works, but it's not the best way. First off it takes time, and everyone knows that the longer stealers are on the field the more they get shot at. Second it still requires you to "cross the gap". That is you have to cover the 18+" you start away from your opponent over what is quite usually open ground. A better way to use genestealers is as a counter assault unit. If you put them behind a large gaunt brood then they're going to get cover from the gaunts as well as anything you use to support those gaunts (such as those venomthropes). As that gaunt blob advances it is going to get engaged by the enemy, and when it does your stealers will be there to run through your gaunts and assault the enemy. This isn't the best way either as your opponent can just ignore that part of your army, but at least you can make him pay for it by throwing some devourers into that gaunt brood. Those are the conventional ways to use stealers, but I find the unconventional ways work the best. Try using your stealers in conjunction with your objective placement. Picture your stealers movement plus likely assault roll as a "threat range". If anything walks into that threat range then you assault them. Now with this in mind pick a spot for your genestealers, preferably out of line of sight. Now place the objective inside that brood of genestealers threat range. If your opponent wants that objective then he has to willingly walk into your genestealers threat range, there's no need for you to cross the gap in order to assault with your stealers. Oh, and if your opponent decides he doesn't want to come near your genestealers? Great, you just claimed an objective. And if you've done it right you're behind some kind of LOS blocking terrain, so your opponent can't even shoot at you while you wait. Those are ways to make your stealers work without resorting to bull rushing them at your opponent under fire. |
|
|
|
Post by Jabberwocky on Sept 16, 2014 16:54:32 GMT
Another use of smaller broods is infiltrating out of sight *behind* enemy lines. Easier done with lictors but stealers are obviously a bigger theat. It's hard to run away if running takes you toward the rest of the army.
Obviously clever deployment can prevent this but that is where the option to outflank comes in. The fact stealers have the option of being anywhere, even if you've already deployed your main force, forces the opponent to react with their deployment somewhat.
|
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Sept 16, 2014 17:06:47 GMT
If you are going to use genestealers I think you have to go big. I like the idea of camping them on objectives and using the assault threat to keep units at bay, that could work. Otherwise, if you are going to use stealers then take lots of stealers. You're going to need multiple threats coming from multiple directions. I have a list I'm playtesting that has 65 in 12 units (utilizing both formations). There are some really bad match ups to be sure, but overall, this list does pretty well so far. I have a big game tonight, I'll let you know how it goes. Don't hold your breath.
|
|
|
|
Post by tag8833 on Sept 16, 2014 17:15:54 GMT
When you start to take exceptionally large broods of genestealers they start to act like those large broods of gaunts. The difference is that you can afford to lose 4 point gaunts by the bucket, 14 points stealers can't be lost that way. So by using your genestealers like a gaunt brood you're going to find that they are over priced for what they do, which I believe is a conclusion you've already arrived at. I agree with you, but I disagree that 10-15 is an "exceptionally large brood of genestealers" Even a brood of 20 is relatively managable if you infiltrate them. The bigest problem you run into, is the lack of grenades making it difficult to attack at initiative. The problem here is that point for point a genestealer is the best model in close combat once it gets into assault. You see, a genestealer is priced right for what it can do, the problem it has is that the tyranid army has no effective way to get its unit into assault. This is only true in very, very, very specific scenarios. A Dimacharon is more survivable and more killy. Shrikes are more maneuverable and have more upgrade options (Bonessword & LW + Poison, and you can ID wraith knights). Raveners are so much faster, and so much more survivable, and very, very similar to Genestealers. Hormagants are much, much more points efficient, and better against light infantry throughout the game because attrition affect them less. Let me offer a scenario of Genestealers vs Raveners attacking units of 10 Tac Marines. 6 Raveners with Rending claws and 15 Genestealers both cost 210 points. If they both Charge a unit of 10 Tac Marines with no upgrades: Marines fire 20 Overwatch shots. 3.33 hits. 1.66 hits. I'll round it to 2 for future calculations. So 2 Genestealers go down to overwatch, and 1 Ravener takes 2 wounds to overwatch but doesn't die. Now they are in. Both have higher initiative than space marines. Genestealers do 39 Attacks while Raveners only do 30 Attacks. The Genestealers kill 7.2 marines (Rounding down to 7). The Raveners kill 5.56 Marines (also rounding down to 5). The marines hit back. They Kill 1 more genestealer, and put a wound on a Full wound Ravener. Assuming they don't break or they run, and we catch them, the next round of combat will look like this. Genestealers do 24 Attacks. Raveners do 24 Attack <- as you can see despite killing more marines in round 1, they are no long any killier than Raveners for round 2. They both kill 4.4 marines meaning both units have statistically eliminated that Tactical Marines. So they charge another squad of 10 Tac marine. It looks like this. On the charge both units take 2 wounds from overwatch, both units do 30 attacks. Both units kill 5.56 marines. Both unit lose 1 wound. Next round. Genestealers do 18 Attacks. Raveners do 24 Attacks Genestealers kill 3.33 marines (aka there is statistically 1 left.) Raveners statistically kill the rest of them. At this point there are only 9 Genestealers, but there are still 6 Raveners (2 with 1 wound, 2 with 2 wounds, 2 with 3 wounds). Generally Raveners with rending claws catch up with genestealers after the 1st round of combat, and start exceeding them by the 3rd or 4th round of combat. Raveners being Beasts are easier to navigate around cover, and have much, much superior mobility. Unless you are in close combat with something that can ID them like a Dreadnought or Wraith Knight, Raveners are generally better in close combat than Genestealers. Genestealers aren't our best unit against Wraith Knights (Dimacharons) or Dreadnoughts (Stone Crusher Fexes) either. The real way to make genestealers work is to find a way that your opponent can't simply move away from them. There are several ways to do this. The easiest way to do this is through maneuvering your army. If your army has a large enough footprint and you press it against your opponent's army then he'll lose his ability to maneuver and you can engage with your genestealers. This works, but it's not the best way. First off it takes time, and everyone knows that the longer stealers are on the field the more they get shot at. Second it still requires you to "cross the gap". That is you have to cover the 18+" you start away from your opponent over what is quite usually open ground. A better way to use genestealers is as a counter assault unit. If you put them behind a large gaunt brood then they're going to get cover from the gaunts as well as anything you use to support those gaunts (such as those venomthropes). As that gaunt blob advances it is going to get engaged by the enemy, and when it does your stealers will be there to run through your gaunts and assault the enemy. This isn't the best way either as your opponent can just ignore that part of your army, but at least you can make him pay for it by throwing some devourers into that gaunt brood. This method gets significantly less use out of Genestealers because they aren't involved in the game until turn 3 at the earliest. It would work best when facing an opponent that wants to close with your Tyranid Hoard which is going to be hard to find, and takes longer to put the mobility limitations on your opponent. It involves keeping genestealers on the board outside of close combat for longer which is something that you oppose in the previous paragraph. As you say, it isn't the best way to use Genestealers. Those are the conventional ways to use stealers, but I find the unconventional ways work the best. Try using your stealers in conjunction with your objective placement. Picture your stealers movement plus likely assault roll as a "threat range". If anything walks into that threat range then you assault them. Now with this in mind pick a spot for your genestealers, preferably out of line of sight. Now place the objective inside that brood of genestealers threat range. If your opponent wants that objective then he has to willingly walk into your genestealers threat range, there's no need for you to cross the gap in order to assault with your stealers. Oh, and if your opponent decides he doesn't want to come near your genestealers? Great, you just claimed an objective. And if you've done it right you're behind some kind of LOS blocking terrain, so your opponent can't even shoot at you while you wait. This is a decent tip. It is one that I do without thinking of. It works very, very well if you infiltrate your genestealers, because you can put them in place earlier, and can let your opponent assist you with the placement of the objectives without them realizing what they are doing. Also important to note that objectives are placed before deployment zones are decided so essentially what you are saying is place the objectives clustered together at midfield. |
|
|
|
Post by tag8833 on Sept 16, 2014 17:24:03 GMT
The broodlord can also be the warlord, freeing up the flyrants to be fully offensive. I've tried this strategy extensively. The reason I don't like it, is because you have to pay 130 points for a unit that can't really participate in the game, because if it does, you make it really easy for your opponent to score warlord. The only time I use it, is if I'm running Old-One-Eye as my only HQ, and I've had slightly more luck using a Red Terror as the warlord in that situation, because his unit can still contribute fairly safely. |
|
|
|
Post by Jabberwocky on Sept 16, 2014 18:26:35 GMT
You already have 15 stealers, so you only pay 60 (usually 74 for TS/st) to nestle a broodlord toward the centre/rear of the unit.
|
|
