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Post by zimko on Nov 8, 2021 16:29:45 GMT
Given that I haven't had time to playtest as much as I want, I'm going to mostly copy this guy's list (see previous post). My brainstormed lists were heading in the same general direction with 1 unit of HG supported by -1 to hit and maleceptor with 2 units of genestealers and at least 1 unit of devgants. I was already thinking of adding the same GSC patrol. The main difference is he took several units for objectives instead of the 2nd devgant unit. Seems like a reasonably choice to me.
I'm tweaking it slightly to swap sky-slashers for raveners since I don't have the models for sky-slashers and I don't feel like trying to convert some. I'll just drop the hand-flamers and a warrior upgrade to fit them in. I don't think the hand-flamers are really that important. The only thing they might be good against is drukhari but even then it may not wipe a unit.
Leviathan Battalion
HQ
- Swarmlord: Onslaught, Paroxysm: 240
- Tyranid Prime: The works: 90
Troops
- 16 Genestealers: 208
- 16 Genestealers: 208
- 10 Hormagaunts: 60
- 30 Devgants 210
- 5 Warriors: Synaptic Link, 1 bs/lw, Adrenal Glands: 108
Elites
- 6 Hive Guard: Enhanced Resistance: 270
- Lictor: 37
- Maleceptor: Catalyst, Synaptic Link: 185
- 3 Venomthropes: 99
Fast Attack
- 3 Raveners: 60
- 3 Raveners: 60
GSC Patrol: Four-Armed Emperor
HQ
- Magus: Mind Control, Mass Hypnosis: 85
Troops
- 5 Acolyte Hybrids: 40
- 5 Acolyte Hybrids: 40
2000 pts and 8 CP
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 8, 2021 22:42:40 GMT
Actually, it lines up pretty close the stuff I like to do, so I think I will also just steal this list for my last league game. XD It was starting to look like either double GS or double HG as general lists already, so might as well.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 10, 2021 3:41:30 GMT
APPARENTLY, Fliers are now 1 per 1k pts; so 2 max expected. Would it still be worth bringing for just 2 planes?
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Post by No One on Nov 10, 2021 4:16:04 GMT
Not sure why you've got the big 'apparently' there? But yeah, especially since stratoraptor/fusilave went up 20 pts as well, I don't think they're as necessary (even when they work).
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Post by zimko on Nov 10, 2021 5:17:57 GMT
The GSC patrol has good value even when you're not using it to block aircraft. But besides that, Orks will probably still use 2 wazbombers, each of which could cripple a Hive Guard unit even with -1 to hit. And there's a Dark Angel list that likes to alpha strike with very fast units that move 21" to get angles on your hiding units. Blips may also help against other tyranids.
If the Ork lists just go away though, then ya probably worth switching to just levi, using horms, raveners and lictors for objectives. I have a feeling tho that Orks will still run 2 wazbombers, 3 squigbuggies and 3 scrapjets as a core. And for that, blips are still good.
Oh, another thing I just thought of. If Imperial Knights become popular again due to them getting more ability to hold objectives, mind control could have some clutch plays.
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Post by No One on Nov 10, 2021 6:22:16 GMT
If the Ork lists just go away though Buggies and flyers got gutted: I think the Freebooterz list is basically dead. There might be some hybrid build that comes out leaning more on multiple different buggies (but I doubt it) or warbikers (but that'd likely be the AoR). But you lose ability to reliably proc, and you lose ability to take advantage of it as well. I suspect that 2 will still show up, because even without freebooterz there's a fair bit of firepower there (especially dakkajets are fairly easy to just slot in). Doesn't feel like it's worth teching for though. Blips do nothing unless you're moving more than 15" (arguably 16", generally even more unless it's literally on the line right across). Which for nids, is...basically flyrant redeploying on the line and advancing (which is risky and rarely needed), Kraken dima (technically other 12" with advance deployed on the line, but...) and I guess T1 metabollic plays? Doesn't really seem super useful there. I'm not so sure. Hyp's great but not reliable enough to be something I'd want to go out of my way to get (especially when it's usually mainly for fight last and parox exists at WC5), MC can spike but's even less reliable and more niche. Blips are very niche. Generations...not sure how I feel about Generations, but there's not a surfeit of CP for Levi. Lying in wait is nice, but metabollic+obsec does a similar thing (though acos do it cheaper in pts). Is this cumulatively enough to warrant the magus pts+CP? Don't think so. |
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Post by N.I.B. on Nov 10, 2021 12:09:21 GMT
This is the list that won a GT over the weekend. Alex MacDougall? |
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Post by zimko on Nov 10, 2021 16:03:15 GMT
Blips do nothing unless you're moving more than 15" (arguably 16", generally even more unless it's literally on the line right across). Which for nids, is...basically flyrant redeploying on the line and advancing (which is risky and rarely needed), Kraken dima (technically other 12" with advance deployed on the line, but...) and I guess T1 metabollic plays? Doesn't really seem super useful there. If I'm sitting across from another tyranid player, and I see Hive Guard and Genestealers hiding and I get first turn... I'm going to redeploy genestealers on the line, then metabolic the Swarmlord, then double move the genestealers to alpha strike my opponent's genestealers and do my best to bad touch some Hive Guard. Blips shuts that play down. Looking around at tyranid lists, I don't see anything that is going to screen this out except Warriors, but the warriors can't protect both a genestealer blob and hive guard.Actually blips dont shut that down because swarmlord move is in the shooting phase, derp. There are other very fast lists out there. Dark Angels have a list with a lot of bikes and speeders that move 21" on turn 1 in order to shoot things hiding behind obscuring. Blips again will block that. Orks may switch to hyper aggressive bikes that can cross the table on turn 1. Again, blips block it. I mean, it's not NEEDED but I don't think the GSC patrol is a waste. I'm not sure we get much more value by taking more gaunts or raveners. The Acolyte Hybrids are really good action monkeys and Mass Hypnosis is a very useful spell to have around. |
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Post by No One on Nov 11, 2021 2:23:47 GMT
Actually blips dont shut that down because swarmlord move is in the shooting phase, derp.  AoR bikers isn't something I'd thought about, true. And 2 CP. And don't say you save the CP on metabollic+obsec, because now they're +5 VP. Sure acos can do the same thing...still costing 2 CP. I just don't think what you get is quite worth 2 CP with how much Levi wants CP, nor do I think magus is quite worth 85 pts with how unreliable the psychic is. That said, another thing I just thought about last night (which I'm not sure if it'll actually work), but scout sentinels: GK are looking like they might be next list to beat, and the pre-game move might block out T1 shunt/gate angles. I'm not sure how reliable that'd be/if you need to take too many sentinels. Also hits TS (and IH pods), which is nice. Is this enough to justify? Eh? I mean, they're cheap and can grab T1 engage, but I don't think they do much else and could be a useless/a liability in some match ups due to hostages/free charge distance. |
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Post by zimko on Nov 11, 2021 4:15:54 GMT
Hmm, ya a scout move would be nice and 35 points is really cheap for a sentinel. It would be quite potent against the dreadknight shunt. If we only take 1 Hybrid unit it would save 5 points in the patrol, costing a total of 160 pts for the patrol.
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Post by zimko on Nov 12, 2021 4:20:44 GMT
I finally managed to beat my drukhari friend with the nerfs they got. He's still tweaking his list though. He used 6 Cronos, haemunculus with the ability to heal 3 wounds without rolling, 3 venoms with 5 incubi, archon and drazhar, a raider with 9 wyches and a succubus, 2x5 mandrakes, 5 wracks, 1 Ravager and 5 warriors.
I used
Leviathan Battalion
HQ
- Swarmlord: Onslaught, Paroxysm: 240
- Tyranid Prime: The works: 90
Troops
- 16 Genestealers: 208
- 16 Genestealers: 208
- 10 Hormagaunts: 60
- 30 Devgants 210
- 5 Warriors: Synaptic Link, 1 bs/lw, Adrenal Glands: 108
Elites
- 6 Hive Guard: Enhanced Resistance: 270
- Lictor: 37
- Maleceptor: Catalyst, Synaptic Link: 185
- 3 Venomthropes: 99
Fast Attack
- 3 Raveners: 60
- 3 Raveners: 60
GSC Patrol: Four-Armed Emperor
HQ
- Magus: Mind Control, Mass Hypnosis: 85
Troops
- 5 Acolyte Hybrids: 40
- 5 Acolyte Hybrids: 40
It was a lower scoring game than usually because we rolled a mission with only 4 objectives and hammer/anvil deployment. Tyranids won 74 to 62.
Biggest notes on the game.
- 16 genestealers picked up 3 cronos on the charge, avoiding overwatch by charging thru a wall.
- Reroll damage on Hive Guard gave me a lot of extra damage when shooting at the raider, cronos and venoms.
- Obsec stratagem came in big multiple times when used on the Swarmlord and Maleceptor. It prevented him from scoring more than 5 points on each of his turns, and gave me 10 points on 2 of my turns.
- Maleceptor with catalyst and obsec is incredibly annoying to remove once the Ravager and 4 of the cronos were dead. 2 Cronos were stuck in melee with it for 2 turns.
- A venom nearly engaged my hive guard, but with defensible buff from ruins and rerolls to hit I was easily able to kill it in overwatch.
- 2x5 Acolyte Hybrids and 2x3 Raveners together were quite formidable for snagging objectives and holding their own in melee against small units. I was able to screen my 2nd unit of genestealers from wyches and incubi with the hybrids until I was ready to charge with the genestealers, allowing them to kill 5 incubi, the succubus and the archon, then give me engage on all fronts. By that point my opponent had nothing left to challenge the genestealers. Having 2 units of genestealers felt good. It allowed me to use 1 unit as a tactical nuke and the second unit held back to clean up in the late turns.
- The Magus used mass hypnosis on the wyches on turn 3. The wyches had 'fight first' but Mass Hypnosis allows me to fight before them even if they charge (since mass hypnosis says specifically to treat units that have 'fight first' as though they don't have 'fight first' and as though they did not charge. And since in 9th edition the defender activates first, it allows me to fight before the wyches). So that was really useful for me. The magus also used smite a couple times and gave me engage on a turn before he finally died. He wasn't resilient or anything, he was just low priority and was able to sneak around doing his thing.
So as of right now, I don't have any changes to make to the list. I need more practice with it as there were several things I could have done better, but nothing in the list felt like a waste.
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Post by zimko on Nov 17, 2021 4:47:52 GMT
I went to an RTT and barely lost to admech. He had 3 units of 20 skittles, a unit of flamer dogs, 3 laschickens, a unit of fast melee dudes that ignore ap 1/2 and a castelon... yes the huge imperial knight. We were using the new FAQ so this guy changed his list from flier spam to this.
So my biggest problem this game was killing the 60 skitarri. I managed to kill 20 of them with devgants but my genestealers were needed elsewhere and I couldn't reach the other 40 due to his positioning. I killed all the mobile units and the castelon but those last 40 skitarri were able to spread to 3 objectives and I couldn't remove them with what I had left. I think if I utilized some move blockers early in order to give my devgants space to arrive within range of 2 units of skitarri then that would have wiped out 40 instead of 20. It also would have been a different game if I went first but can't rely on that.
Some notes for potential list change:
- The Raveners were decent for scoring RoD and engage at the tournament as well as using the obsec strat to snipe an objective but I don't think 2 units is necessary. 1 fast unit for doing engage on turn 1 is sufficient until reserves arrive. I may try gargoyles again for move blocking at the same time.
- This army bleeds No Prisoners badly, giving up 14 points if tabled but usually 12 points is easy to accomplish. I think I should try to reduce my wound count a little.
- The Hybrids and Magus are really useful. The Blips never really mattered, but the hybrids themselves are excellent at showing up wherever I need some bodies. With +1 to charge they can even make a charge sometimes. Mass Hypnosis turned off overwatch from the admech flamer dogs so that my genestealers could wipe them out, then used overrun to move block the castellan. The Magus himself got off several smites at key points to finish off units. I view the GSC as a self sufficient scoring detachment with a nice psyker for utility. If I can squeeze in points for some flamers then I think they could be decent at killing some units too.
- CP usage is certainly a problem but with more practice I think I can manage it. With better positioning I can avoid using metabolic overdrive as much.
- Venomthropes feel bad. Against space wolves they were useless. Against admech, whatever he targeted was overkilled with or without -1 to hit. Against Aeldari they did mitigate some of the damage from nightspinners. Night Spinners are actually quite decent at killing Hive Guard, but they're also quite rare and I think this game could be considered an oddity. So I'm looking at dropping the -1 to hit aura and just going with something more deadly or cheaper.
New List idea:
Leviathan Battalion
HQ
- Swarmlord: Onslaught, Paroxysm: 240
- Tyranid Prime: The works: 90
- Broodlord: Psychic Scream, Resonance Barb: 125
Troops
- 16 Genestealers: 208
- 16 Genestealers: 208
- 30 Devgants 210
- 4 Warriors: Synaptic Link, 4 bs/lw, Adrenal Glands: 99
Elites
- 6 Hive Guard: Enhanced Resistance: 270
- Lictor: 37
- Maleceptor: Catalyst, Synaptic Link: 185
- Pyrovore: 28
Fast Attack
- 10 Gargoyles: 70
GSC Patrol: Four-Armed Emperor
HQ
- Magus: Mind Control, Mass Hypnosis: 85
Troops
- 5 Acolyte Hybrids: 4 flamers: 52
- 5 Acolyte Hybrids: 4 flamers: 52
- 5 Acolyte Hybrids: 40
1999 pts and 7 cp
To reduce wound count for No Prisoners, I added the Broodlord and removed the Venomthropes and a fast attack unit. I'm already struggling at hiding most of my army due to the large footprints of my units so a monster may not be wise which is one reason I decided on a broodlord. I've always loved the broodlord and he usually performs quite well for me. I don't know if it's just my style or what but with psychic scream, smite and resonance barb he can pump out a lot of damage from the protection of Look Out Sir, then he can also do decent damage in melee. And since I'm running 2 units of genestealers, he may even provide them with +1 to hit occasionally. I don't think his synaptic link is good enough to pay 15 points for though so I'm leaving that off the list. This puts me at 125 wounds for No Prisoners instead of the 140something I had before.
I removed the unit of Hormagaunts and added a Pyrovore as an action monkey, gave flamers to some of the hybrids, and added another hybrid unit so that I have a total of 4 deep strikers between the hybrids and the lictor(2 to RoD and 2 to disrupt). I actually thought about adding a kelermorph but I don't think he's worth his 80 pts.
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Post by brianb9999 on Nov 23, 2021 11:48:27 GMT
I like your points about the maleceptor - I'm finding all kinds of glorious uses for it. If its -1 S aura isn't needed, I love to just send it upfield, smiting/screaming and being annoying. It's pretty much the last thing your opponent wants to shoot, but it's great for tying up objectives and making it obsec like you mentioned. If my devilgaunts are off the board/out of range, I even give him the +1 to hit link...nothing earth-shattering, but 3's rerolling 1's feels a lot better than 4's rerolling 1's. Combined with his psychic output, it can actually chip away at some units while being quite tanky.
I've toyed with venomthropes and while they can be extremely beneficial in the right matchups, they can also be useless as you mentioned. They're also less useful if you end up going first. This is why I think I always prioritize units that bring something to the table going first or second. Maleceptor, as mentioned, can be defensive, but also amps up hive guard and does other useful things. Even hormagaunts or gargoyles screening your line either absorb a charge, or push out and move block / occupy objectives. I don't have GSC (I know, I know) so I have to make sure I have enough screening units, but I think they generally do more than venomthropes over the course of several games. I'm curious to know how your gargoyles perform as I've always been a fan of them for early game moves, but I wish they were at the same price point as hormagaunts as they were at the end of 8th.
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Post by zimko on Nov 23, 2021 15:20:03 GMT
I haven't played again with this list because I've been toying with the more aggressive HG spammish lists that Mani is using. I tried his 18 HG list and it definitely felt like a little bit too much HG, but the 12 HG list where both units are Kronos feels much better. Here's my slight variation on it.
Levi Battalion:
HQ
- Swarmlord: Catalyst, Onslaught: 240
- Tyranid Prime: ANLobe, Syanaptic Link, Swarm Leader, Strategic Adaptation: 90
Troops
- 12 Genestealers: 156
- 12 Genestealers: 156
- 12 Genestealers: 156
- 30 Termagants: Devourers: 210
- 10 Termagants: 50
Elites
- Lictor
Kronos Patrol
HQ
- Neurothrope: Resonance Barb, Symbiostorm: 95
Troops
- 3 Warriors: Synaptic Link: 66
- 3 Warriors: Synaptic Link: 66
Elites
- 6 Hive Guard: 270
- 6 Hive Guard: 270
GSC Patrol
HQ
- Magus: Mass Hypnosis, Mind Control: 85
Troops
- 5 Acolyte Hybrids: 4 Hand Flamers: 52
6 cp, 1999 pts
From experience, I'm finding more and more reasons to use Swarm Leader on Genestealers or Devgants instead of Hive Guard. That leaves me with Levi Hive Guard without rerolls that still require 1 CP to give exploding 6s and 2 cp to shoot twice. All that CP is much less effective without rerolls. But in order for Devgants and Genestealers to work well they NEED the rerolls. Having Hive Guard in Kronos means they always gets some rerolls. If there are no minuses to hit, then they basically get full rerolls just like if they were in Levi with Swarm Leader but without needing to take away Swarm Leader from Devgants or Genestealers. Symbiostorm is also essentially free, paying 1 CP pregame for Resonance Barb to give me exploding 6s the entire game. The only thing I'm missing out on by not taking a unit of Hive Guard in both Levi and Kronos is the possibility of having 2 units with exploding 6s. But again, full rerolls without needing Swarm Leader makes up for this.
This list is also missing a Maleceptor. A Maleceptor is 185 pts, and while rerolls to damage is very nice for Hive Guard... at that price, it isn't much of a stretch to take another unit of Hive Guard. Which is what we're doing in this list.
This list is also taking 3 units of 12 genestealers instead of 2 units of 16. A unit of 16 has been nice... but it's often overkill. The only time I find it not overkill is when charging a full unit of Talos or something T8. In such cases, having an extra unit of both Hive Guard and Genestealers should work out fine. But in other matchups, having 3 units of Genestealers is better than 2 units even if the 3 are smaller. It allows us to trade more often.
I haven't played with this latest 12 HG list yet. I'll probably get some games in next month.
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Post by brianb9999 on Nov 23, 2021 22:14:24 GMT
Interesting. I'd be concerned about overwatch vs 12-man stealer units, but you have mass hypnosis for ignore overwatch and fight last. I might be tempted to try double hive guard in Kronos though as you make good points.
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