2k Levi, new rules, new toys

[nackanid]

Oct 22, 2021 14:45:56 GMT zimko said:

I agree on the -1 to wound relic. I'm also swayed by a tyranid prime instead of broodlord. I'm also switching to a large brick of warriors for defending the hive guard and securing an exposed objective. So here's my latest update.

HQ
- Flyrant: venom cannon, MRC, -1 to wound relic: Paroxysm, P. Scream: 205
- Swarmlord: Catalyst, Onslaught: 240
- Prime: reroll hits, redeploy, s. link, CP regen relic: 90
Troops
- 16 genestealers: 208
- 16 genestealers: 208
- 26 devgants: 182
- 8 warriors with s. link, enhanced resistance: 136
- 3 warriors with s. link: 66
Elites
- 6 HG: 270
- 6 HG: 270
- Lictor: 37
Fast Attack
- 10 Gargoyles: 70

9 CP, 1997 pts

If you have the points lash wips for the big warrior-blob could be very nice. Stops units from pile in to hive guard and always gets to fight. Also, redeploy is an warlord trait, then you can’t take Enhanced on the warriors

[beetlejuice]

Oct 24, 2021 7:54:25 GMT nackanid said:

Oct 22, 2021 14:45:56 GMT zimko said:

I agree on the -1 to wound relic. I'm also swayed by a tyranid prime instead of broodlord. I'm also switching to a large brick of warriors for defending the hive guard and securing an exposed objective. So here's my latest update.

HQ
- Flyrant: venom cannon, MRC, -1 to wound relic: Paroxysm, P. Scream: 205
- Swarmlord: Catalyst, Onslaught: 240
- Prime: reroll hits, redeploy, s. link, CP regen relic: 90
Troops
- 16 genestealers: 208
- 16 genestealers: 208
- 26 devgants: 182
- 8 warriors with s. link, enhanced resistance: 136
- 3 warriors with s. link: 66
Elites
- 6 HG: 270
- 6 HG: 270
- Lictor: 37
Fast Attack
- 10 Gargoyles: 70

9 CP, 1997 pts

If you have the points lash wips for the big warrior-blob could be very nice. Stops units from pile in to hive guard and always gets to fight. Also, redeploy is an warlord trait, then you can’t take Enhanced on the warriors

you can take 2 warlord traits + 1 adaptive physiology with stratagems

[nackanid]

Oct 24, 2021 8:00:13 GMT beetlejuice said:

Oct 24, 2021 7:54:25 GMT nackanid said:

If you have the points lash wips for the big warrior-blob could be very nice. Stops units from pile in to hive guard and always gets to fight. Also, redeploy is an warlord trait, then you can’t take Enhanced on the warriors

you can take 2 warlord traits + 1 adaptive physiology with stratagems

Ah, didn’t think of that!

[zimko]

This is what I took yesterday to a game against Drukhari.

HQ
- Flyrant: venom cannon, MRC, -1 to wound relic: Paroxysm, P. Scream: 205
- Swarmlord: Catalyst, Onslaught: 240
- Prime: reroll hits, redeploy, s. link, CP regen relic: 90
Troops
- 16 genestealers: 208
- 20 horms: 120
- 25 devgants: 175
- 9 warriors with s. link, enhanced resistance, 7 lashwhips: 189
- 3 warriors with s. link: 66
Elites
- 6 HG: 270
- 6 HG: 270
- Lictor: 37
Fast Attack
- 10 Gargoyles: 70

9 CP, 2000 pts

I lost 75 to 71. It came down to a final advance roll where I needed a 4+ to reach an objective with hive guard in order to get 10 points on the final turn for primary (making it 76 to 75). But I didn't get it.

Unit analysis:
Hive Guard: 2 units is a huge investment in artillery that don't hold objectives. Only 1 unit at a time can really benefit from good buffs. +1 to hit alone isn't enough to make the unit shine for it's 270 pts. They were good for 'To the Last' but the unit that didn't get rerolls was only mildly effective. And the Swarmlord is difficult to keep alive so I'm really only getting a reliable 10 points from 'To the last'. So RoD would get me more points in most games. In the future I will try just 1 unit with a Maleceptor, I could have used those damage rerolls for shooting into Raiders.

Flyrant: Ya he was tough. Tougher than any Tyrant I've used. But with nothing else for dark lances to shoot (Swarmlord wasn't peaking his head out), he did get focused. He survived turn 1 but then died to drazhar charging him. Maybe it was just a bad showing but nothing has changed for flyrants from before this update except a couple relics. And I wasn't a fan of them before so why am I trying to force one in now? I should use those 205 pts elsewhere.

Warriors: Pretty good. The 9 man brick survived 3 Cronos shooting at them and only lost 1 model. Then Incubi charged them... wiped them... I then used lashwhips/bonesword to pile-in to have 4 warriors attack drazhar and 3 attack incubi. They KILLED drazhar (with some luck) and kill 4 incubi. The Prime was close enough to give them +1 to hit and I had given them the Prime's synaptic link for 6s autowound. I also used the exploding 6s strat. So Warriors impressed me. I'll keep the 9 man brick. I still don't think it's worth giving them ranged weapons for how expensive those weapons are. I double moved them to get them into position. However, due to the suicidal nature of this 9 man brick, I quickly found myself with only 2 synaptic links.

Gargoyles: I took stranglehold on the mission Priority Objective (5 objectives, hold the one in your zone for easy 15 points). The gargoyles did their job of double moving onto the middle objective on turn 1 and giving me stranglehold for that turn. After that they got slaughtered of course by cronos shooting followed by a raider charge. They were fine but a unit of Raveners could have done the same for 10 pts less. With my playstyle, I doubt I'm going to use gargoyles for move blocking that much.

Devgants: Arrived from reserves and killed a Raider and 5 incubi. I didn't have many good places to put them so this was ok. I definitely would have preferred starting on the board but it's easy for a Raider to shut them down (and that is what happened to these after they arrived). However, they did survive with 6 models remaining after being charged by wyches, which gave me more points later. Definitely keeping them but I doubt I'll add a 2nd unit. It's a niche utility unit in my eyes.

Genestealers with Tyranid Prime: Good on paper... even better on the board. A fully buffed unit of 16 Genestealers completely wiped 3 cronos. If you've ever fought against Cronos, you know how awesome that is. And there wasn't much overkill... they NEED all those buffs to do it (6s autowound, full rerolls to hit, tesla strat). I had to sacrifice a unit of 10 hormagaunts to the overwatch gods to accomplish this but well worth it. I then used overrun to move block a unit of wyches, an archon, a unit of incubi and a succubus from getting to anything other than my genestealers. After that... I really wished I had another unit, because my opponent was running 2 units of 3 cronos. But even more than that, all his important units were out of transports and I was running thin on bodies to deal with them. Raiders are just so fricking annoying. They can fallback and charge for 1 cp, move really fast, and impossible to screen after turn 3. So one of my hive guard units was shut down for 2 turns. Amusingly, 2 of the 16 genestealers survived after 10 wyches attacked them. I removed models such that none of the other units that charged them would get to attack. He then wrapped my unit but he had to use the succubus to do that. Those 2 genestealers then did 3 wounds to the succubus. Later that game... the succubus had killed my other unit of warriors and consolidated into hive guard. My Tyranid Prime charged her with his own 6s autowound buff and managed to kill her. That was his shining achievement.

Hormagaunts: The 10 man unit was an overwatch sacrifice. The 20 man unit took the middle objective for me by charging the Raider there. Then used their massive pile-in/consolidate to swing the fringes of their unit around to take a second objective, giving me stranglehold for that turn. So hormagaunts still do their thing. Worth having 1 large unit. The smaller units could be swapped for any smaller unit tho.

And that's where I'm at when building a new list. So here's the new list.

HQ
- Swarmlord: Catalyst, Paroxysm: 240
- Tyranid Prime: Lobe, 2x Talons, Swarm Leader, Strategic Adaptation, Synaptic Link: 90
Troops
- 16 Genestealers: 208
- 16 Genestealers: 208
- 23 Hormagaunts: 138
- 26 Devgants: 182
- 9 Warriors: 9 LW/BS, Enhanced Resistance, Synaptic Link: 195
- 3 Warriors: Synaptic Link: 66
Elites
- 6 Hive Guard
- Lictor
- Maleceptor: Onslaught, Synaptic Link: 185
Fast Attack
- 3 Raveners: 60
- 3 Raveners: 60
- 3 Raveners: 60

10 CP, 1999 pts

I'm starting to think that Raveners can fill my need for more fast units. A unit of Raveners can absorb overwatch for genestealers. They can double move to snag an objective for Stranglehold, or give them obsec to deny 5 points to my opponent's primary. And for the same points as 10 horms, they're quite a bit more resilient to small arms fire, take up a smaller footprint, and decently better at attacking MSU units. Honestly, their only problem was that they weren't obsec but that problem is solved now. And we now have a new problem of not having enough Troop slots, so that makes taking Raveners a natural choice.

This is a much more objective focused list. I didn't feel like 2 units of Hive Guard (1 fully buffed and one mildly buffed) was oppressive enough for me to run away with the game. I need more units so I can disrupt objectives beyond turn 3. This list also saves me a CP due to not needing a second relic.

[nidzy]

Thanks for this review. I love the warriors in this list. I played 9 with deathspitters and lw/bs recently and I agree that ds are too many points for not much output.

I am also sold on raveners. They really solidly RoD for the list and are also great for stranglehold so they just make the best options better/easier for cheap. They add viability to banners on some maps too.

I had good results with 2 squads of hive guard but I haven’t played against DE but they are unwieldy and you get both scoring and defense for dropping them. One squad takes away less hiding resources as well and really makes the second squad of stealers possible in that way.

I am still cheerleading this flyrant but he just doesn’t have the output. I run him with devourers because I never hit with venom cannons. I was considering a walk rant with the -1 to wound and psychic relic just to move to the middle for that secondary but I think it’s better to just take a neuro for that.

[kazetanade]

zimko

I'm pretty sure no one and I told you all of that XD

You will get better results if you use the Flyrant like a Dimachaeron/Superflyrant - keep him hidden, go after key targets without an invul, do the psychic Ritual secondary while biding time, or just smite/scream for support damage. You don't want anything out in the open in this army.

On a personal note, I really really really like the Barbed Heirodule. Giving him a +1 to hit is a big deal, since he can't benefit from any other buffs to begin with, but also because he's a viable threat projector you're not afraid to push out into the map. He tanks well and buys you 1-2 turns. In Leviathan, he's even an explode candidate. Of course, the catch is not everyone has a Barbed heirodule...

2x devilgants are good, don't knock it - start 1 in reserve and 1 on the table. You can and should screen them with Warriors first, and tag them for rerolls to hit when you fear charges happening. > this is where I wish Flyrants got the fall back shoot charge link instead of extra console range...

Alternatively you can just drop one per turn out of the sky and use explodes on them, see how that goes (maths says actually pretty well against raiders). I'd be using HG with 3+ rr all reroll dmg in levi - 2nd HG is really deadweight unless you Kronos, but the issue at hand is getting alpha'ed off because maleceptor doesn't cover across anymore, otherwise super solid.

[zimko]

I've gathered tid-bits of knowledge here and there but personal experience is the best teacher.

I may give 2 units of devgants a try. And I do like barbed hierodules but I'd like to go with this more infantry focused list first. I'm pretty tired of dealing with one-off anti-tank weapons punking my dimas/dules/tyrants with very little effort.

[zimko]

Side note, you can't screen devgants from raiders if the drukhari player knows what they are doing. They are too fast and too flexible with the ability to fallback and charge, advance and charge, and fly keyword with those stupidly long narrow hulls.

[kazetanade]

Oct 30, 2021 6:37:14 GMT zimko said:

Side note, you can't screen devgants from raiders if the drukhari player knows what they are doing. They are too fast and too flexible with the ability to fallback and charge, advance and charge, and fly keyword with those stupidly long narrow hulls.

If they are within range to advance and charge, they are within HG range. In the DE matchup, the ability to shoot the raiders to bits before they get anywhere is pretty key, and HG do that implacably well. 

I wont claim to know exactly what the situation was or how it could be prevented, but at least from my own experience, using some platforms to screen the front (in my case I used a Ghost Ark, which is the same width and length as 5 Warriors across I think) gave me relatively good results, since the charge was more complicated and they cant leverage the whole weight of the units behind them; and in your example case, I rather a unit of 30 Devgants get charged and held up, so that they can fallback, give the HG the space to shoot, and get back into the fight next turn, as it sounded like the HG got tagged instead. 

Other than that - I think Raveners are very bad for what you want to do. The move fast enough for most things, but dont have the number of bodies you need - remember the rule is Obsec vs Obsec turns off obsec, so it comes down to a competition of how many bodies are on it - even a single obsec body + 3 non-obsec will beat your 3 obsec Ravs. If you want to use that strategem to turn on obsec on an unsuspecting unit, I would stay with Gargs. The story would be very different for a unit of 9 Ravs with +1 to hit, exploding 6s, 6s auto wound, and more damage output than Warriors, but I have real questions on whether that unit is worth that kind of investment at all.

[zimko]

I think you overestimate the effectiveness of HG into raiders. If fully buffed, a HG unit can kill 2 raiders... most of the time. If not fully buffed (like a 2nd unit) you're not killing a raider. We have a decent amount of dense cover on the board so they just make sure to have a toe in it. Then they also can redeploy 3 units. One raider can move 20 inches and still charge and there are always at least 5 raiders. So not only do I have to screen against a skimmer that can move 20 inches... I also have to deal with the 2 units of incubi, 2 units of wyches, and 3 characters AND 6 cronos. Drukhari units are just too cheap so there are too many to deal with them all that can all reach me by turns 2 or 3. My best bet is to disrupt their objectives. I use HG more often to remove units on far off objectives to keep him at 5 for primary. He does the same to me which keeps us close on points. I actually had 5 more primary points than him this game but he gets a free 15 points from Herd the Pray because of codex secondaries.

[zimko]

As for screening. I did screen with 9 warriors. They were charged by incubi and drazhar and died (can't be -1 damage against melee). I then killed drazhar and 4 incubi with lash whips. It was a fine trade but that still left me with basically no warriors. That was top of turn 2. I had 3 raiders danger close at that point as I was only able to shoot 1 raider down on my turn 1 due to him staying just out of their range (even if they move) with all raiders except the one with true born I'm it. So I killed the raider with true born and all trueborn.

[kazetanade]

I'm aware of the DE matchup other than Cronos - had a game vs them last week.

My game was roughly -

Barbed Heirodule brings 1 down to 2W without buffs - the contents unloads and I ignore this one thereafter until necessary

HG Kronos buffed brings 1 down, double shoot to bring down the contents

A unit of Hormagants were shoved into their face to prevent massive rush into mine

HG Kronos kills another raider - double shoot to kill 3rd raider.

Genestealers were sent into the mess - Superflyrant into the characters that unloaded.

4th raider (the 2W one)tries to get a potshot next to SL, so I wreck it for free.

5th raider tussles with Termagants for 2 turns, as the contents were Trueborn and not Wyches. Eventually this becomes a tussle with Gants, Heirdoule, incubi, and Sslyths.

Assuming he goes T1, everything is placed in a way where the combat monsters have to be charged, or if not, just Termagants or Hormagants. This case I actually went first, cos I sent Hormagants up to kill the mandrake in the mid and then just block their forward movement and hold objs.






Most of these, were back in Behemoth and Kronos - so with the new changes, my output only increases. I expect the dule to get kills solo with +D, and with exploding hits and big rerolls on the HG, their double shoot should give you easily the kill on whatever is actually in range. Assuming he stays out of range (which he can ofc), it means he can't charge the HG, and I sent stuff like GS or Hormagants (in your case, can be Gargs) to force him to have to do something instead of just running at my face (and have to get within range to do anything of note).

Their max threat charge range for the raiders is still 27-30", and the contents have a threat range of approx 20-22" themselves. They can get into "danger close" and you maybe can't burn them down in time at that point - you have to prioritise and play to trade up in objectives at that point. But you should never be in a position where they can just charge you from safety.

[zimko]

Well, I'm getting very close to winning every time I play him. It's always down to the wire. Honestly the Herd the Pray secondary is whatbgets me every time. I can match him on points with everything else but that secondary. He doesn't have to rush me, he just needs to remove me from any objective not inside my deployment.

[No One]

zimko said:

I'm starting to think that Raveners can fill my need for more fast units. A unit of Raveners can absorb overwatch for genestealers. They can double move to snag an objective for Stranglehold, or give them obsec to deny 5 points to my opponent's primary. And for the same points as 10 horms, they're quite a bit more resilient to small arms fire, take up a smaller footprint, and decently better at attacking MSU units. Honestly, their only problem was that they weren't obsec but that problem is solved now. And we now have a new problem of not having enough Troop slots, so that makes taking Raveners a natural choice.

Honestly, I'm thinking about sky slashers for basically the same role: can't RoD and a bit less survivable/a lot worse in combat, but 15 pts cheaper and Fly, and I don't know how much those really matter anyway. If it's just throwaway strangle/engage/min obsec...

[zimko]

For RoD it may be fine to just take 2 pyrovores and pay a cp to reserve them. Or start on board depending on deployment