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Post by zimko on Oct 30, 2021 20:09:56 GMT
Ok. Perhaps I'm over reacting to Drukhari. So here's a list closer to what I used but with a few tweaks, including a plan for RoD and 2 units of devgants.
I'm dropping the warrior brick for now because I feel like they are neat but not optimal. Devgants can screen when I need a screen, but can also threaten when I don't need a screen.
With dropping the warrior brick, it also frees up an adaptation for the flyrant to be more of a melee threat. So I'm giving it double talons and the -1 relic.
HQ
- Hive Tyrant: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Relic: Biomorphic Carapace, Wings, Murderous Size
- Swarmlord: Catalyst, Paroxysm
- Tyranid Prime: Relic: Adaptive Neural Lobe, 2x talons, Synaptic Link: Unchecked Ferocity, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Strategic Adaptation, Warlord Trait: Swarm Leader
Troops
- 16 Genestealers
- 16 Genestealers
- 26 Devgants
- 26 Devgants
- 3 Warriors: synaptic link
Elites
- 6 Hive Guard
- Lictor
- Maleceptor: Synaptic Link
- Pyrovore
- Pyrovore
Fast Attack
- 10 Gargoyles
9 CP, 1,999pts
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Post by zimko on Nov 1, 2021 3:08:53 GMT
To better deal with the ork matchup, and potentially anything else with LOS ignoring shooting or aircraft, I can add 3 venomthropes by dropping the devgant units to 21 and removing a pyrovore. I don't lose much damage output and the venoms can perform an action in place of the pyrovore.
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Post by zimko on Nov 2, 2021 16:02:57 GMT
I am making some adjustments before playing a game tonight on TTS. I was considering trying Tyrant Guard because my thought was 'Oh, they can survive round 1 vs Orks' and 'Ya they're much more resilient than Genestealers'... but... 2 units of Genestealers seems fine too and it's better against the majority of the field. Drukhari for example. I will however take a Malanthrope to at least try to mitigate some of the alpha strike.
HQ
- Malanthrope
- Swarmlord: Catalyst, Paroxysm
- Tyranid Prime: Boneswords, scy talons, adrenal glands, Relic: Adaptive Neural Lobe, Synaptic Link: Unchecked Ferocity, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Strategic Adaptation, Warlord Trait: Swarm Leader
Troops
- 16 Genestealers
- 16 Genestealers
- 27 Devgants
- 27 Devgants
- 3 Warriors: a. glands, synaptic link
Elites
- 6 Hive Guard
- Lictor
- Lictor
- Maleceptor: Synaptic Link
Fast Attack
- 3 Raveners
- 3 Raveners
10 CP, 2000pts
I'm feeling good about this list. If I go first against orks then I feel like I have the damage potential to cripple them and pull out a win. For secondaries I can score RoD and Engage fine, plus a mission or kill secondary.
Tonight I'm playing against a guy who has been very successful with a Redemptor dread list. His list has (Sorry for the battlescribe format but I didn't want to shorthand anything in case I miss something):
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Iron Hands) [20 PL, 345pts] ++
+ Configuration +
**Chapter Selector**: Born Heroes , Custom Chapter, Iron Hands Successor, Whirlwind of Rage
Detachment Command Cost
+ HQ +
Lieutenants [5 PL, 90pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Rites of War, The Vox Espiritum, Warlord
. . Neo-volkite pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Storm Shield: Neo-volkite pistol
+ Troops +
Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts]
. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant
+ Heavy Support +
Eliminator Squad [5 PL, 75pts]: Bolt sniper rifle
. Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle
. 2x Eliminators: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak, 2x Frag & Krak grenades
Eliminator Squad [5 PL, 75pts]: Bolt sniper rifle
. Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle
. 2x Eliminators: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak, 2x Frag & Krak grenades
++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Iron Hands) [80 PL, -6CP, 1,653pts] ++
+ Configuration +
**Chapter Selector**: Born Heroes , Custom Chapter, Iron Hands Successor, Whirlwind of Rage
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
+ HQ +
Primaris Techmarine [5 PL, 100pts]: Chapter Command: Master of the Forge, Target Protocols
+ Elites +
Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 180pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 180pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 180pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, -3CP, 175pts]: Cyclone missile launcher, Merciless Logic, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: March of the Ancients, Target Protocols, 2x Twin volkite culverin
Vanguard Veteran Squad [7 PL, 149pts]: Jump Pack
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Lightning Claw
. Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Thunder hammer
Vanguard Veteran Squad [7 PL, 149pts]: Jump Pack
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Lightning Claw
. Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Thunder hammer
+ Fast Attack +
Land Speeders [3 PL, 70pts]
. Land Speeder: Multi-melta
Land Speeders [3 PL, 70pts]
. Land Speeder: Multi-melta
+ Heavy Support +
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Devastator Marine Sergeant: 2x Astartes Chainsword
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Devastator Marine Sergeant: 2x Astartes Chainsword
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon
+ Dedicated Transport +
Drop Pod [4 PL, 70pts]: Storm bolter
++ Total: [100 PL, -6CP, 1,998pts] ++
We are not using GW terrain. We are using terrain that our local tournament circuit is using. The circuit is called 'Mid Atlantic Tournament Circuit'. I'll post some screenshots (and maybe a video if I can get my twitch to work).
For secondaries... well it depends on the mission so we'll see.
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Post by No One on Nov 3, 2021 2:37:36 GMT
I am making some adjustments before playing a game tonight on TTS. I was considering trying Tyrant Guard because my thought was 'Oh, they can survive round 1 vs Orks' and 'Ya they're much more resilient than Genestealers'... but... 2 units of Genestealers seems fine too and it's better against the majority of the field. Drukhari for example. I will however take a Malanthrope to at least try to mitigate some of the alpha strike. Yeah, this is basically where I feel like with them: they've got a niche where they're better for sure. Is it enough of a niche to where I think they're optimal to run over stealers, considering other match ups e.g. DE/sisters (and probably a lot of damage neg match ups, though those can have piles of D1 firepower which is where t-guard have an advantage)? Don't think so. DM me if you're streaming it, I'll probably show up if I'm awake. Anyway, list looks good: as long as you can screen out the dev drop I like your chances. Though is your prime double scy tal or scy tal+bonesword? One thing I'd think about is dropping the prime and just going to 20 man stealers or something: it's a small drop in output against >T4, but fairly marginal and you get more bodies to not worry about thresholding as much. On the flipside you have to worry more about footprint and getting everyone into combat to keep that similar damage, but I think it's a reasonable consideration. |
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Post by zimko on Nov 3, 2021 2:47:55 GMT
I am making some adjustments before playing a game tonight on TTS. I was considering trying Tyrant Guard because my thought was 'Oh, they can survive round 1 vs Orks' and 'Ya they're much more resilient than Genestealers'... but... 2 units of Genestealers seems fine too and it's better against the majority of the field. Drukhari for example. I will however take a Malanthrope to at least try to mitigate some of the alpha strike. Yeah, this is basically where I feel like with them: they've got a niche where they're better for sure. Is it enough of a niche to where I think they're optimal to run over stealers, considering other match ups e.g. DE/sisters (and probably a lot of damage neg match ups, though those can have piles of D1 firepower which is where t-guard have an advantage)? Don't think so. DM me if you're streaming it, I'll probably show up if I'm awake. Anyway, list looks good: as long as you can screen out the dev drop I like your chances. Though is your prime double scy tal or scy tal+bonesword? One thing I'd think about is dropping the prime and just going to 20 man stealers or something: it's a small drop in output against >T4, but fairly marginal and you get more bodies to not worry about thresholding as much. On the flipside you have to worry more about footprint and getting everyone into combat to keep that similar damage, but I think it's a reasonable consideration. Unfortunately my opponent had something come up and couldn't play tonight. We'll see if I can get a match against drukhari on thursday tho this would be in person so I'll just have to take pictures. The prime currently has 1x scy talons and double boneswords. I think I just forgot to remove the '2x' before the scy talons. It was a last minute add because I had an awkward number of points remaining and, for silly reasons, I wanted to keep the devgant units with an equal number of models. I'll update my previous list to reflect the last minute changes. I'm not sure about the effectiveness of just adding 4 genestealers vs the Prime's synaptic link. For one thing, I'd have to run with 2 links unless I find points for another warrior unit. For another, I'm not sure on the math but the Prime's buff seems like a big reason for why genestealers are going to be able to take on T5+ units. Especially for Acid Maws being able to skip the wound roll. I'd have to see math on that. But besides that, the footprint would be an issue. I have a tough time as it is with 16 trying to cram them all into a small space because of their awkward limbs. EDIT: I'll just repost the latest list. Removed a warrior and their upgrades but added glands to move faster and used those points to add more devgants. Rather than having 28/27 split of devgants a 1 point left over... I decided to give the Prime adrenal glands and boneswords. He may be able to kill a weakened character or small unit if it comes down to that. HQ - Malanthrope - Swarmlord: Catalyst, Paroxysm - Tyranid Prime: Boneswords, scy talons, adrenal glands, Relic: Adaptive Neural Lobe, Synaptic Link: Unchecked Ferocity, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Strategic Adaptation, Warlord Trait: Swarm Leader Troops - 16 Genestealers - 16 Genestealers - 27 Devgants - 27 Devgants - 3 Warriors: a. glands, synaptic link Elites - 6 Hive Guard - Lictor - Lictor - Maleceptor: Synaptic Link Fast Attack - 3 Raveners - 3 Raveners 10 CP, 2000pts |
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Post by No One on Nov 3, 2021 4:01:12 GMT
I'm not sure about the effectiveness of just adding 4 genestealers vs the Prime's synaptic link. For one thing, I'd have to run with 2 links unless I find points for another warrior unit. For another, I'm not sure on the math but the Prime's buff seems like a big reason for why genestealers are going to be able to take on T5+ units. Especially for Acid Maws being able to skip the wound roll. I'd have to see math on that. But besides that, the footprint would be an issue. I have a tough time as it is with 16 trying to cram them all into a small space because of their awkward limbs. So unless I've messed something up somewhere, prime link is ~~30-40% buff in output (assuming tesla+full rrs and fishing: it depends a lot on save and I haven't really looked at invuls though): I'm going to do a maths post...eventually...Going from 16->20 stealers is a 25% buff in output (you don't quite have the pts to go to 20 for both squads, but simplicity). Which is less but close enough that, especially since the benefit drops a lot going down to T4 and T3, I think you can say it's basically just 'do you want more bodies for defence/utility at the expense of footprint'? Which if you're already struggling to fit, fair  . |
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Post by zimko on Nov 4, 2021 15:52:32 GMT
I just had another thought.
I could replace 1 Lictor and both units of Raveners with a GSC Patrol of Magus and 2x5 Acolytes. The blips would help stop aircraft from getting LOS on Hive Guard. The Magus would provide access to 'ignore overwatch' power and the occasionally powerful 'mind control' power. I'd also gain access to the 'stop a strat' stratagem with four-armed emperor. The Acolytes would be fine at doing the Raveners' job of RoD and Engage.
The only real negative consideration is the CP cost of taking a Patrol and the potential CP cost of using blips (1 CP to create extra blips or 1 CP to put Acolytes into deep strike when revealing blips.)
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Post by No One on Nov 4, 2021 16:23:35 GMT
It's something that I've thought about, but don't consider it a done deal: I was talking with someone about this for our TTS maps, and on most of them you couldn't protect HG (or if you could it'd require being right on the back edge of H&A), and definitely couldn't really protect anything else alongside them (like you could maybe do a HG+stealers or something). If you know your terrain layout well, see how it goes, but these aren't exactly light terrain maps. But for me, it seemed still 'go 1st or lose' against aircraft, and it'd cost 2-4 CP for the privilege (4 blips is unlikely to be enough, so you'd need both extra blips and on board, so an extra CP to bounce so you've still got RoD), meaning it's worse into everything else, and worse in what's probably your only good chance i.e. going 1st. Considering I've found you just burn CP and still have plenty of useful things to do with it...losing 2 CP in every game sucks.
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Post by zimko on Nov 4, 2021 16:51:35 GMT
On my local maps it would work fine. There's a ruin in each corner that has 2 sides completely LOS blocking and a sturdy roof within 5" (So you cant land on the roof without being within engagement range). 6 HG can barely fit behind it but an aircraft can still get a good angle on turn 1 depending on the deployment (Dawn of War mostly but the others are an issue as well because my units would be somewhat exposed in order to block the angles). 4 Blips for 1 CP could cover this (deep strike the Acolytes and use 3 extra blips with the Magus, making sure one is in a spot where he could deploy safely from). The 2 CP cost for the Patrol isn't as big a cost as it might seem since I'm replacing Raveners, who would normally eat 1 or 2 CP for Metabolic Overdrive and/or 'ob sec' strat in most games anyway.
Amusingly, in the GK or TS matchup, this patrol is also 3 extra sources of psychic denial, tho that is a small consideration all 3 units would have to be next each other to do that.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 5, 2021 5:01:44 GMT
I read somewhere you have to be pure Nids to get Synaptic Links. But otherwise, Alex Mcdougall basically did that for No Tak X. Couple of weeks back now.
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Post by No One on Nov 5, 2021 5:02:27 GMT
It was something that a lot of people were basically just guessing with no substantiation when it was first leaked: it's not a thing.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 5, 2021 6:37:03 GMT
Assuming that blips would be able to give us T1 planes protection, it's an extremely solid plan and makes the Maleceptor/Malanthrope combination unecessary, perhaps giving us more leeway to focus on damage output or other utilities. From a conceptual list building, it's more efficient use of resources.
If it doesnt need to be pure then I think might consider along those lines more. But I cant tell mentally how much protection it can provide - and going 1st means the plan is kinda screwed still, since I fully expect important things to be outside 36" range...
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Post by purestrain on Nov 5, 2021 12:39:15 GMT
Assuming that blips would be able to give us T1 planes protection, it's an extremely solid plan and makes the Maleceptor/Malanthrope combination unecessary, perhaps giving us more leeway to focus on damage output or other utilities. From a conceptual list building, it's more efficient use of resources. If it doesnt need to be pure then I think might consider along those lines more. But I cant tell mentally how much protection it can provide - and going 1st means the plan is kinda screwed still, since I fully expect important things to be outside 36" range... Don't hold onto that hope for too much longer, rumor has it that they are changing the way that cult ambush works without the markers so I would take this strat as a patchwork at best for now. |
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Post by zimko on Nov 5, 2021 13:46:57 GMT
Assuming that blips would be able to give us T1 planes protection, it's an extremely solid plan and makes the Maleceptor/Malanthrope combination unecessary, perhaps giving us more leeway to focus on damage output or other utilities. From a conceptual list building, it's more efficient use of resources. If it doesnt need to be pure then I think might consider along those lines more. But I cant tell mentally how much protection it can provide - and going 1st means the plan is kinda screwed still, since I fully expect important things to be outside 36" range... It might protect HG but it won't protect anything else. There's too much to hide. I'd say a Mal/Mal is still necessary. |
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Post by zimko on Nov 8, 2021 16:00:21 GMT
This is the list that won a GT over the weekend.
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [106 PL, 10CP, 1,811pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Hive Fleet: Leviathan
+ Stratagems +
Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
The Swarmlord [14 PL, 240pts]: Power: Onslaught, Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite
Tyranid Prime [6 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: Relic: Adaptive Neural Lobe, 2x Scything Talons, Stratagem: Alpha Leader-Beast, Synaptic Link: Unchecked Ferocity, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Strategic Adaptation, Warlord Trait: Swarm Leader
+ Troops +
Genestealers [16 PL, 208pts]: 4x Acid Maw
. 16x Genestealer: 16x Rending Claws
Genestealers [16 PL, 208pts]: 4x Acid Maw
. 16x Genestealer: 16x Rending Claws
Hormagaunts [3 PL, 60pts]
. 10x Hormagaunt: 10x Scything Talons
Termagants [9 PL, 210pts]
. 30x Termagant (Devourer): 30x Devourer
Tyranid Warriors [9 PL, 114pts]: Adrenal Glands, Synaptic Link: Bioweapon Bond
. Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons
. Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons
. Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons
. Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons
. Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons
+ Elites +
Hive Guard [12 PL, 270pts]
. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance
. 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
Maleceptor [10 PL, 185pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Smite, Synaptic Link: Focal Essence
Venomthropes [5 PL, 99pts]
. 3x Venomthrope: 3x Toxic Lashes
+ Fast Attack +
Sky-slasher Swarms [2 PL, 45pts]
. 3x Sky-slasher Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Sky-slasher Swarms [2 PL, 45pts]
. 3x Sky-slasher Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [11 PL, -2CP, 189pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]
+ HQ +
Magus [5 PL, 85pts]: Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Mind Control
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 52pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Hand Flamer, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 52pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Hand Flamer, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
++ Total: [117 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
Sorry for copying the battlescribe format but didn't want to omit anything.
He went second against freebooterz and won, the blips prevented the aircraft from being able to get angles on anything, forcing the orks to wait a turn. I'm not sure what the terrain layout was like but it's definitely a tech option I'm going to include in my own list. The hand-flamers aren't a bad touch for going into weak units either. He didn't list a cult creed but I'm going to assume it's four-armed emperor.
Here are the author's words from the facebook post.
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