GSC+Flyrant spam

[No One]

While I can't say I'm pleased with the gutting of combat and how that affects my GSC, nids are looking better and I might be able to make something a bit different work, so back to theorycrafting it is (feel this is more of a nid list than GSC, but this board feels empty, so here it is).

FAE Battalion

HQ: Patriarch. Warlord 135
HQ: Magus+crouchling 100
Troops: 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops: 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops: 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops: 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops: 19 acos /w 6 saws and icon 222
Elite: Nexos 55
Elite: Clamavus 60

Behemoth Patrol

HQ: Swarmlord 270

HQ: Flyrant (Scythes of Tyran, devs, AG, TS) 245

Troops: 10 Termagants 50

Behemoth Patrol
HQ: Flyrant (MRC, devs, AG, TS) 230
HQ: Flyrant (MRC, devs, AG, TS) 230
Troops: 3 rippers 36

Total: 1993

With new terrain rules, flyrants seem like they could be really solid: annoying to get rid of if you can't focus them, mobile to touch things (and touching still matters if you don't evaporate to single unit firepower), and generally just try and bully out midfield objectives. And of course super-flyrant+Swarmlord to delete something nasty, with Behemoth for optional T2 DS charges instead. Of course, I don't know if terrain's going to be good enough in practice (and also how well they fare in the power creep of PA firepower), but seems promising. Then the GSC: 1 kill squad for PA, and then a bunch of smaller squads to be annoying. Screen break with multiples+FAE+clamavus, take risky 8" charges in awkward positions to remove, or just play for objectives. Not really sure how best to use them for secondaries yet (Engage+Raise the banner? Easy end of turn stuff, though won't max), but lying in wait/charging onto objectives to deny primary seems very viable. As with flyrants, no idea if this'll work: I'm more skeptical, to be honest. I think it'll do...OK at objective stuff, but good enough to work, or able to do anything else if that's not needed?

Anyway, not really sure how 9th looks: played one game with a 1500 pt variant (dropped the 2nd patrol) and it worked really well. Not sure how much was luck getting first and making all my charges/my opponent playing DE and not being experienced against GSC, or if the concept is actually viable, but hey. Thoughts?

[beetlejuice]

Looks like you will be starved for CP paying for those 2 patrols, relic, PA, generation, maybe broodcoven/adaptation.

[No One]

Yeah, CP might be an issue. I should hopefully not be too CP reliant: no HG or anything, only one PA, and nexos+FAE WLT. But lots of pre-game (down to 5 with patrols, relic, adapt and psyche: broodcoven feels excessive now that I think about it) and I would like to be able to double lying in wait if needed. Which I can do (9 CP by T3 with min WLT and nothing from nexos, -1 for from below, -3 for PA, -4 for lying in wait=8), but that doesn't give me much leeway for CP rerolls on charges/psychic. I dunno: it's intended as a list leaning more on raw stats in the flyrants, with a bit of CP shenanigans from the GSC. Think I'll only really run into issues if I want to Generations, but that's a very unappealing prospect I'd want to avoid.

[beetlejuice]

I know you love your acolytes but if you really want triple flyrant I’d put those in a leviathan battallion to be a real nuisance, backed up by either kronos HG/exo patrol or ridgerunner/neophyte patrol

[kazetanade]

Try Neophytes with Lasers. They can do the obj grabbing and always contribute even if they don't make the charge and cost the same as these Aco units.

Otherwise it's go.

Looking at the top 3 factions of Custodes, DG, SM, you could bully out SM, assuming people maintain this core of Aggressor+Eradicator, with Blade guard+ Impulses + Intercessors approach. Custodes and DG would be seriously hard though.

[No One]

beetlejuice said:

I know you love your acolytes but if you really want triple flyrant I’d put those in a leviathan battallion to be a real nuisance, backed up by either kronos HG/exo patrol or ridgerunner/neophyte patrol

I don't like Leviathan flyrants: it's minor damage mitigation, but I don't think flyrant's do enough for minor damage mitigation to matter. Where as just killing stuff (super-flyrant, hunger) or tagging (rr charges) is much better.

Don't have exo/ridgerunners, so that's not exactly an option.

Hive guard...might be wrong, but I don't know if it's worth the 400 pts just for them without the CP to fuel double tap. Maybe just dropping the GSC (or flyrants) entirely and going to 2 dets with Kronos HG might be better, but that feels like a completely different list.

kazetanade said:

Try Neophytes with Lasers. They can do the obj grabbing and always contribute even if they don't make the charge and cost the same as these Aco units.

Hmm...I've been thinking about it, but unsure about losing FAE (and non-BC DS neos is...no) and the objective pressure. Also don't have an alphus or painted neos . But thinking on it more, doesn't seem too bad. Keep the clamavus to give 8" charges for the saw squad and potentially neos if I feel like it, lying in wait for 1 squad, show up with alphus instead of magus or patty and delete something with WLT, maybe take another term/ripper unit with the extra points. Seems like it could be solid. Might try it out with Vassal/TTS.

[No One]

Had a game today, trying something pretty like the previous list.

Behemoth Battalion
HQ Flyrant (Scythes of Tyran, devs, AG, TS. Size) 245
HQ Flyrant (MRC, HVC, AG, TS. Size) 230
HQ Flyrant (2xdevs, barb) 230
Troops 10 terms 50
Troops 3 rippers 36
Troops 3 rippers 36
HS Trygon (AG) 155
HS Trygon (AG) 155


FAE Battalion
HQ Patriarch (Warlord) 135
HQ Magus+crouchling. Psyche 100
Troops 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops 10 acos, 3 saws /w icon 120
Troops 10 acos, 3 saws /w icon 120
Elite Nexos 55
Elite Clamavus 60

Total: 1997

(The trygons were just because I wasn't trying to bring a super comp list)

And...it actually worked really well. He was playing a bunch of expert crafters WS, a unit of spears and a unit of wraithblades. I got first, hid and moved up some acos to hide midfield. He couldn't do anything, I jumped him with onslaught'ed+cat super flyrant while the other 2 staged closer to midfield along with some of my GSC hiding. He whiffed (though I couldn't really capitalise, and he got all his psychics off the next turn to smoke 2 flyrants).

But the terrain worked really well, just hiding flyrants until they can jump out and gang up on stuff, barb flyrant is almost a better Swarmlord because they actually have Fly themselves. And the 10 mans were pretty happy making combat with just hiding, and then stim+might to kill something (all 3 made charges off an advance: the other 2 were lying in wait). The size MRC also was quite effective (though I might've spiked 6s a bit).

Anyway, thinking of something like the following:

Behemoth Patrol
HQ Swarmlord (WL) 270
HQ Flyrant (MRC, devs, AG, TS. Barb) 230
Troops 10 terms 50
Troops 3 rippers 36

Behemoth Patrol
HQ Flyrant (Scythes of Tyran, devs, AG, TS. Size) 245
HQ Flyrant (MRC, HVC, AG, TS. Size) 230
Troops 3 rippers 36

FAE Battalion
HQ Patriarch    135
HQ Magus+crouchling. Psyche 100
Troops 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops 9 acos /w icon 82
Troops 10 acos, 3 saws /w icon 120
Troops 10 acos, 3 saws /w icon 120
Troops 10 Brood Brothers 50
Elite Nexos 55
Elite Clamavus 60

Total: 1999

Not that different to previous: not sure about Swarmlord for this, hive guard might be better. Just concerned about having enough terrain/placed well enough to hide everything. Swarmlord at least lets me threaten from further away if I don't have good midfield terrain to stage from.

[No One]

Had a game with a variant of the above list, so ramble post ho!
My list:

SPOILER: Click to show

Behemoth Patrol Powers
HQ Flyrant (Scythes of Tyran, devs, AG, TS. Size) 245 Horror, Scream
HQ Flyrant (MRC /w size, devs, AG, TS) 230 Cat, hunger
HQ Swarmlord (Warlord) 270 Ons, cat
Troops 3 rippers 36
Troops 3 rippers 36
Troops 10 terms 50
Troops 10 terms 50
HS Mawloc 125


TH Battalion
HQ Patriarch 135 MO, TH
HQ Magus+crouchling. Psyche 100 Hyp, might, stim
Troops 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops 10 acos /w icon 90
Troops 9 acos, 8 /w flamers and icon 98
Troops 10 acos, 3 saws /w icon 120
Troops 10 acos, 3 saws /w icon 120
Troops 10 acos /w icon 90
Elite Nexos 55
Elite Clamavus 60

Total: 2000

His list was basically a big unit of grav devs, Guilliman and support, with some outflanking melta and outriders:

SPOILER: Click to show

*Chapter Selection*: Ultramarines
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment CP [-3CP]
+ Stratagems +
Honoured Sergeant [-1CP]
Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of extra Relics
+ HQ +
Chaplain Cassius [5 PL, 95pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 5. Recitation of Focus, Litany of Hate, March for Macragge
Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 135pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 2) Might of Heroes, 3) Null Zone
+ Troops +
Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist
Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist
Scout Squad [4 PL, 70pts] . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 4x Scout w/Boltgun: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
+ Elites +
Bladeguard Veteran Squad [5 PL, 105pts]: Bladeguard Veteran Sgt . 2x Bladeguard Veteran: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Master-crafted Power Sword, 2x Storm Shield
Judiciar [4 PL, 85pts]: Seal of Oath
Primaris Apothecary [4 PL, -2CP, 60pts]: Healer's Aegis, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Chief Apothecary, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
+ Fast Attack +
Outrider Squad [6 PL, 135pts] . 2x Outrider: 2x Astartes Chainsword, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Twin Bolt rifle . Outrider Sgt: Master-Crafted Weapon
+ Heavy Support +
Centurion Devastator Squad [28 PL, 425pts] . Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter . Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter . Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter . Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter . Centurion Sergeant: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 170pts]: Armorium Cherub . Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-melta . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
Eradicator Squad [5 PL, 120pts]: Eradicator Sgt . 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Melta rifle
++ Supreme Command Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [19 PL, 6CP, 380pts] ++
+ Configuration +
*Chapter Selection*: Ultramarines
Detachment CP [3CP]
+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +
Roboute Guilliman [19 PL, 3CP, 380pts]: Warlord
++ Total: [105 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++

So, basically two sections to this. The flyrants and cents, and everything else.
Flyrants: I deployed pretty cagey, he got first and moved up. I went all in with flyrants (I could've maybe just stayed hiding, but I didn't like the idea of giving him more space and also if I stuffed up and he got to shoot me...). Got a bit unlucky in that super flyrant got degraded going in, onslaught got denied on the other one, and the cents lived with 1 guy even after double fight and smites killing one off. RIP, one gets back up with apoc, super flyrant dies horribly, but he doesn't move up.
I move up with other flyrant+Swarmlord, drop the mawloc to make movement even more awkward. Then stuff things up and lose Swarmlord to Guilliman because judicator+null zone (well, also the spiked 4 6s for 10 mortals...). And other flyrant gets degraded and whiffs on the cents again.
They all then die to his melta stuff, then he finally can start moving up to the central objective. So, sort of worked (in the sense that he had to spend 2 turns dealing with my flyrants and wasn't moving up to be on objectives). Sort of didn't, in that they all died horribly while doing minimal damage. But I think that was partly a me thing, partly a luck thing (and very partly a 'he got rules slightly wrong' thing).

The rest of my army, did pretty much exactly what I wanted. Deployed 2 units in blips (because I'd have too many units in reserves without using they came from below: thought I'd give it a shot with a good ruin midfield to hide behind). They advanced up T1, one got a stim+might charge T2 to kills some intercessors. Flamer squad burnt off some scouts to deny his, other units showed up in annoying spots. He just finished off the ones from T1 (both in the open right in front of him) and did a few wounds to a saw squad with outflanking outriders.
Those saws turned around and charged, other saw squad advance+charge+clamavus with stim to kill off incursors (though to be honest, didn't really matter at this point), unit in backline advance+charge with strat to kill off unit in his backline on objective. Basically everything died. But with gaunts (who kept getting charged by the bladeguard vets, but didn't die) and rippers stealing the midfield objectives, he only ended up getting 10/15 primary (T2, T5 and maybe something else somewhere).

He got good bring it down/thin their ranks considering he couldn't max either against me, and also decent on his 3rd mission secondary (BR pts at end of turn for holding centre objective, which I also took for 10/max). But only 10/15 primary. I messed up on linebreaker and only got 4, but 40 primary and basically maxed other secondaries: my primary score was almost higher than his entire score. And even if he always killed me down to just hold 1, I think I still eked out a victory. So...yeah. Not sure if it's something I can pull off consistently, but TH definitely seems to have the mobility and killing power to deny objectives really well, and that can basically win games on its own. Just a case of if I can consistently find places to hide them to pull it off.

Other stuff: mawloc was bad, -4 VP to do nothing for 125 pts. Could've maybe done something dropping next turn, or burrowing for 4 (especially if I planned out linebreaker better), but...that'd just put him neutral on VP. Seems like it could have potential, but not in this list.
Patriarch: I wasn't sure what to do with him. Wanted him buffing the magus to make sure stim went off, but since I had to stay out of deny range of Tiggy for that, he didn't do anything immediately. And then the only things he could go after where the cent blob, which was pointless, so he did nothing. Not sure what I could've done: probably either been more aggressive on the drop, used more psychics then and just taken the risk on deny (or failure without +1), with strat/CP reroll to bridge. Was very tight on CP though. And/or just drop in his backfield basically solo: probably can't be dealt with without turning around, maybe lets me clean out his objective another time, and also gets me linebreaker. Think he should stay in the list, I just need to be more aggressive with him, because it's not like he's an important part of the army anymore.
Clamavus: more awkward to use now that I've played than I thought. I ended up super spread, so he only buffed 1 squad. 60 pts for +1/+1 on a single squad...and another easy assassinate point? Not sure. Also is only +1 if I drop him with a squad that was already on the board.

Overall, thinking about chucking in some hive guard instead of the mawloc and maybe clamavus/extra ripper squad or something. Basically just a softener for whatever I'm going after, maybe finish off something. 3 or 4 man should be fine to hide, just a bit of something extra. Not sold though if anyone's got another suggestion: I like them because if nothing else they're something that doesn't give up secondary points though.
Also need to sort out how I play my secondaries: only getting 4 on linebreaker wasn't good (almost got it the 2nd time, but my 2nd squad didn't quite make it all in). Not sure if that's a 'should have played differently' thing or a '

[kazetanade]

I'd say scramblers since you're not charging on the entry anyway. Easy 10/15, no need to think too much.

Rest of it looks good I think, maybe just unlucky. Give it another go.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

I'd say scramblers since you're not charging on the entry anyway. Easy 10/15, no need to think too much.

Scramblers is an always pick. It's just the other 2: I had a good mission secondary that time (though risky due to my opponent also wanting the middle and it favouring late game scoring). But linebreaker didn't work out, and some mission secondaries are bad. Engage seems like it'll be a generally better secondary than linebreaker, so that's fine. But the 3rd...WWSWF isn't good for what I want to do with the flyrants and is very 'win more', even against lists that might struggle to deal with them. Most of the others are bad: thinking about veil, use the patriarch for that if he's got nothing better to do, should be an OK 8 pts if mission secondary isn't better, or I don't have an obvious kill secondary.

Rest of it looks good I think, maybe just unlucky. Give it another go.

Yeah, still happy with the concepts overall. Just some specific details that didn't impress me.

[No One]

Had another 2 games with (basically) the list. Added HG instead of the mawloc, then also clamavus for DS charge options and MO. Both games went pretty well: game 1 vs TS/daemons, he wasn't super experienced with his army, wasn't able to effectively apply damage to the flyrants, and acolytes where able to bully what the flyrants couldn't.

Game 2 vs harlequins, closer. But blips meant I got to engage first even though I went second. Stuffed up my target priority (wasn't playing around fall back and shoot/charge at all), and also bounced off invuls more than I'd like. But kept him to hold 1 on a hold 2 mission while he didn't knock me off enough to prevent my scoring. Acos didn't do anything in particular (outside of flamers doing flamer things, and another unit taking out a solitaire), but they kept his focus off my objectives, so still a win. And patty did work, finishing off a boat, and killing 2 death jesters (1 in combat, 1 with MO). One other thing that came up was using clamavus+vertical engagement to get a 7" charge onto a death jester on 2nd floor to take an objective. Nice little thing to get that extra inch: and even if I didn't have that, still would've made, so I do like that as an option to deny objectives that way.

Other things: hive guard did something both games, but it was mostly just punishing mistakes. 1st game killed Ahriman who hung out on top of a ruin outside 3" and otherwise just shot Nurgle things to minimal effect. 2nd game they killed a guy off an objective to deny any primary, but there were characters nearby who could've held it with better positioning. Then they got touched and probably would've died next turn. That said, I think they're fine, just as something so my opponent does actually have to dedicate resources to holding backfield objectives, and they can't just chuck a lone guy/Character there and know they'll be fine if my flyrants/DS have been dealt with or are otherwise occupied. Keler could perform a similar role, but I don't think it's any better. Gives up another assassinate and less damage over the game for 70 pts saved and some Character threat.

[iniquity]

Awesome to see someone trying something different.

Out of interest how do you feel about abhor the witch? As I see it each flyrant is giving up 8 points each in secondaries. This really put me off playing triple flyrant. I kind of feel that it should only give 5 if your character has less than 9 wounds.

[No One]

iniquity said:

Out of interest how do you feel about abhor the witch? As I see it each flyrant is giving up 8 points each in secondaries.

It's ouch, yes. Fortunately it'll usually mean I have an uncontested psychic phase, with caveats about strat denies, and you can really pump out the MW with this list. But secondaries has so far been my biggest issue with the list: abhor, assassinate and thin their ranks ends up as a really potent trio of kill secondaries against the flyrants, and all can max/come close to maxing against the list in general. Where as I usually struggle to get more than 10 on mine without an obvious kill secondary/strong mission secondary. There's possibly a game plan where I just play super cagey with the flyrants/rest of the Characters and just try and deny any secondaries. But gets risky for primary and if they can just kill T4/5 anyway.

That said, so far I'm pretty sure I've restricted my opponent's to <10 VP on average for primary. How much that's a consistent thing my list can do, rather than my list being very good at punishing mistakes, not sure yet.

[iniquity]

Sept 19, 2020 5:22:44 GMT No One said:

iniquity said:

Out of interest how do you feel about abhor the witch? As I see it each flyrant is giving up 8 points each in secondaries.

It's ouch, yes. Fortunately it'll usually mean I have an uncontested psychic phase, with caveats about strat denies, and you can really pump out the MW with this list. But secondaries has so far been my biggest issue with the list: abhor, assassinate and thin their ranks ends up as a really potent trio of kill secondaries against the flyrants, and all can max/come close to maxing against the list in general. Where as I usually struggle to get more than 10 on mine without an obvious kill secondary/strong mission secondary. There's possibly a game plan where I just play super cagey with the flyrants/rest of the Characters and just try and deny any secondaries. But gets risky for primary and if they can just kill T4/5 anyway.

That said, so far I'm pretty sure I've restricted my opponent's to <10 VP on average for primary. How much that's a consistent thing my list can do, rather than my list being very good at punishing mistakes, not sure yet.

Awesome, I’d be keen to hear more as the list develops. I’m tempted to try 3 in a pure nid list.

[No One]

Continuing the win streak (still don't know if it's flukes/opponent's inexperience with 9th/my army). Game vs Salamanders. Basically big unit of flamestorm aggressors, 2 eradicators, 3 invictors, TH/SS termis and some assorted troops.

Game was very quick and decisive in my favour. He deployed very aggressive with the invictors, 1 eradicator and termis in reserve, other eradicator and aggressors bottom right flank. I had enough drops to counter deploy, since I kept most of my acolytes on board (counter charge invictors/scouts/hide midfield, or bounce if I got 2nd and terrain wasn't adequate). So had super flyrant+Swarmlord lined up on them and and invictor, other flyrant on an invictor, and blips to prevent movement/offer T1 charge options, as well as some behind terrain.

He gave me first (he was wanting to test how he went going 2nd), comfortably charged all 3 invictors and killed them (MRC flyrant+patty, Swarmlord with a couple of wounds plinked with psychic, and saw squad with might), super flyrant charged the aggressors+eradicator, tanked overwatch with cat, double fought with voracious to kill all bar 1 aggressor. Basically GG: he had nothing to threaten me, his reserves didn't do enough when they came in and I had complete map control, so he called it. Bleeding secondaries didn't matter, since I'd dominate so hard on primary, but he could've still got 10, maybe 15 on abhor if he went for it hard as a loss mitigation. Not sure how much that matters though: might be something to bear in mind for team tournament, but don't think I care for singles.