GSC+Flyrant spam

[beetlejuice]

Was this with 24” between deployment? What kind of charge rolls were you rolling geting all those units stuck in? Or did aggressive deployment mean he put invictors in no man’s land with concealed positions cus then I get how pretty much the whole army can connect t1.

[No One]

Yeah, the invictors were all pushed right up outside 9", so comfortable charges even from slightly back positions for some of them.

[No One]

Had another couple of games, only lost one by two points. Vs Orks, opponent wasn't super comp but soft tailored, and I wasn't sure how I'd do into hordes. But acos blended and stole objectives while flyrants occupied a bit of attention, so reasonably comfortable victory (though it didn't go to time). Vs marines, white scars. He played very cagey so I couldn't do anything worthwile T1, and managed to kill a flyrant T2 with a 6" advance on melta devs. But even though he tabled me, he delayed his things till T3, and I was able to keep him off objectives and deny him easy secondaries for the win.

Vs crons, we had two takes of this game. First game, I went all in with the super flyrant on his seraptek heavy construct. Was too ambitious though, didn't kill it, and ate a bunch of wounds in shooting and overwatch for the trouble. Was able to deny him any primary, but he tabled me and maxed secondaries (abhor ) while I wasn't able to get much on bring it down as my third, and couldn't hold enough objectives to do much on primary anyway. Rematch I just tried to hide mid: rolled much better on saves and took hardly any damage, counterpunched the seraptek when it charged me to kill it. Acos made charges on things to again deny any primary, and would've just been my remaining stuff hunting down his remaining stuff to deny primary again.

[No One]

So, had a game vs Custodes. Was...interesting. "Lost" horribly: he made enough rules errors, combined with being over 100 pts over from my recollection of the list I'm hesitant to fully call it that. But wasn't exactly a close game either, so...I think any take aways are valid regardless of source.

Might do up some more thoughts etc later, expand on stuff, but just wanted to post.

His list was basically 2 buffed shield caps, dread, 2 allarus squads, double vexillus (-1, and +1 A and exploding 6s) and 3 3 man sword and board guard.

T1: He killed hive guard.
I moved up, smite to kill 2 allarus. Charge with both flyrants, finish them off with double fight and do some wounds to a dread. (Mistake 1: 5+++ instead of 6+++: probably didn't matter. Almost certainly died, but I don't think it did anything that another unit wasn't going to do). (Mistake: had 3 pts for grind them down).
My error, forgot to do engage: probably 2, maybe 3.

T2: Gets 10 pts for primary for holding his backfield. Shot with an annoying amount of S4 -1 D2, degraded both flyrants. Charged with characters and killed super flyrant (who then exploded onto his everything. Didn't actually matter though ).
Also showed up with his second squad of allarus (couldn't because clamavus, but that was an accident and I didn't feel like arguing the point, rather wanted to see what custodes did). Killed magus because I was greedy and tried to keep crouchling alive (5 wounds, only 1 4+ on unquestioning ). Otherwise bounced off Swarmlord's 3++ and lost a couple in retaliation.

15 pts primary for hold 2 and hold more. I retaliated as best I could with some aco counter charges, but...well, no might because dead magus, acos just bounced off the shield caps. Also failed (?) a 9" charge on stuff with a DS (rolled an 8 with clamavus, but maybe couldn't actually move that because I declared someone who I'd pre-measured as <10, but...dunno). Don't think it actually mattered considering how much other charges went, but still annoying.
Stole an objective with hand flamer lying in wait, but (spoilers) didn't really matter since he maxed primary. 3 pts for engage, scramblers in middle.

T3: 5 pts for primary. Starts mopping up my acos and characters etc brawling around the midfield objectives, also picks up most of the handflamer squad with that custodian guard unit. 2 pts engage
10 pts for primary for hold 2. I have very little left: unit of acos finishes off a unit of custodian guard on right midfield objective (probably should've just kept the hostage and banked on failing charges/not quite having enough, but eh). 2 pts for engage. Fall back and bounce the hand flamer to ensure scramblers

T4: 10 for holding 3 to my 3. Goes to take out my rippers on my backfield objective, leaves 1 and then charges. Makes with 3d6 charge (possibly with using a reroll charge as reroll single dice), which he both couldn't use, and is 3d6 drop lowest (which I even specifically asked about...). Again, unlikely to have mattered since I was so far behind and the ripper probably died to morale, but...

I score 5 primary, my scramblers and 2 for engage.

T5: 15 pts primary. Mops up rest of my army.

His score: 40 primary, 15 assassinate, 12 grind them down, 9? engage. 76 VP


My score: 40 primary, 7(+2/3) for engage, 10 for scramblers. I had no idea what to do with 3rd secondary: had pierce the veil, but...nadda. Could've maybe taken interrogation and got 6 pts with patty? Just so awkward. 57 VP.

So, take aways (apart from know my opponent's army better than they did). Basically, need a better 3rd secondary: I think mental interrogation seems fine with patty. MO was underwhelming, and while it could be good, especially in some match ups, I think mental interrogation would've given me more returns. Assassinate would've also been a maybe: didn't actually kill anything, but could've likely done so with better play.
I think the other major things are to be able to judge when I can full commit in, and when it's better to just play back. I think it'd have been better to just deploy back a bit more, then move up, screen out any charges with terms and just smite at the 18". I think the damage would be pretty similar between his shooting and my psychic. Then I countercharge with everything, and would have more flexibility to engage on what I wanted to (i.e. shield caps), or just generally get damage from everyone and acos as well.

[kazetanade]

If you want one built into your list, I actually think giving up EoAF and swapping to Linebreaker is way better/nicer/synergistic. EoAF is not for us, we're too squishy to keep it going for more than 3 turns, and 3 turns doesnt even get us 10pts. 3 turns of LB is 12, and the 2 easy turns of T2 and T3 are already 8VP vs very difficult fighting for 6VP.

Also if you have SL, SL is a fantastic candidate for Psychic Ritual. Bounce him middle, PR it, then bounch him back into your deployment zone. If you have 6 TGs eating wounds for him, he's basically SECURED 15VP from that. Note I dont like having 6 TGs, but I think this is a trolltastic combination on parr with Eldar's shenanigans, assuming the enemy cant just DENY you of it. Also, assuming you dont fail, but at least if you do, you're not losing of SL's other functions.

So Assuming you got LB, DScram, P.Ritual, you've got 3 solid secondaries set down in place, leaving you basically just worrying about Primaris and doing the game damage thing.

And yes I do say nevermind the Super Flyrant - DS him instead of running him, and use Arachnyte Gland instead of SoT OR just trigger the 1cp synapse charge strategem.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

If you want one built into your list, I actually think giving up EoAF and swapping to Linebreaker is way better/nicer/synergistic. EoAF is not for us, we're too squishy to keep it going for more than 3 turns, and 3 turns doesnt even get us 10pts. 3 turns of LB is 12, and the 2 easy turns of T2 and T3 are already 8VP vs very difficult fighting for 6VP.

I'll disagree with this. EoaF has been an easy 6-10 pts without doing anything more than minor positional tweaking and actually remembering to score it. Linebreaker would usually be only 4 pts, if that: I rarely want to dumb 2 units in my opponent's DZ, because I usually want to drop and hide (any terrain will usually be taken), and don't want to bank on 8" charges unless there's a good opportunity. Sometimes that happens (terrain and vertical engagement range ), sometimes I've got nothing better to go for, but not a game plan I want to commit to. That would mean I need to throw away two aco units per turn (or unit and character), or bank on stuff surviving sitting under my opponent's nose. To get 12 pts I basically need multiple things to live in my opponent's zone (which is usually pretty 'win more').

EoaF, on the other hand, is guaranteed 2, usually 3 VP, both T2 and T3. Often T1, can usually get T4, sometimes even T5 (handful of backline stuff lives, metabollic). Basically 6 VP without any effort, usually ~10 VP if things go well. Linebreaker is more like 4 VP (possibly having to sacrifice units purely for this), 8/12 if it goes well. Sacrificing units to usually only get similar results, for a potential pay off of +2 VP? Eh.

Also if you have SL, SL is a fantastic candidate for Psychic Ritual. Bounce him middle, PR it, then bounch him back into your deployment zone. If you have 6 TGs eating wounds for him, he's basically SECURED 15VP from that. Note I dont like having 6 TGs, but I think this is a trolltastic combination on parr with Eldar's shenanigans, assuming the enemy cant just DENY you of it. Also, assuming you dont fail, but at least if you do, you're not losing of SL's other functions.

This though. This is interesting. I don't think it's quite a lock in list secondary like scramblers is, but gives another flex pick that could be very strong, even without the t-guard (don't think I want to change up the list to fit them in at the moment, but if I like this, could replace the hive guard, who've generally underwhelmed. I can see potential, but it's rarely realised). It's vulnerable to being killed (not unique, but that's a 0 vs e.g. interrogation for at least something), but more uniquely it's vulnerable to being tied down in combat. Not an issue vs every list, but while Swarmy can fight well, he can't reliably clear even a 5 man intercessor squad. If he has to bounce himself and hide, and my opponent can feed him decent model count/invul brick units for 1-3 turns, that's me 15 pts down. But, apart from fall back prevention (and I suppose physical move blocking/denies), it's quite unrestrictive. I basically just lose Swarmy's smite and onslaught (which I can even 1 CP cast with +1 off the barb flyrant: lose another smite or +1 to wound without another CP, but worth for 15 VP): I can fight on the 6" if I want, I can still fling flyrants if I think they can't deal with him at range, I can fling Swarmy and charge if I've finished or feel I can reliably finish it up later. It's even only WC3, so literally only fails on a perils which I'd want to reroll anyway.

Seems like it could be quite a strong pick if I want to play a bit cagier (which is definitely something I should do more), and/or terrain/my opponent's list suits. Hopefully I get a game before the tournament so I can test though, probably not the best secondary to try out at a tournament with no practice .

And yes I do say nevermind the Super Flyrant - DS him instead of running him, and use Arachnyte Gland instead of SoT OR just trigger the 1cp synapse charge strategem.

Eh, I don't think that really works with the other flyrant. I don't think I've ever lost them both in a single turn without feeding them both i.e. shooting is rarely going to be sufficient, damage in my turn (overwatch/combat), or shooting plus counter charges. Obviously eradicators exist and can 100% spike them both out, but even that's not super likely unless I stuff up and give them half range. So I'd be trading damage in the chance that I can hide/it lives/Swarmlord sling is worth still (and that can just win games outright if my opponent stuffs up), for a failable and screenable charge from reserves.

Ignoring the fact I don't want to make major changes to the list (it seems to be working so far, inasmuch as I'm usually winning and my losses were eminently winnable with better play. Also I actually have practice with this list), I don't think super flyrant is worth if my opponent can screen out their truly important things. Add on that it's an eminently failable charge and I don't like the idea.

[kazetanade]

I think EoAF is a YMMV thing. I've gotten consistent 12pts on Line breaker regardless opponent, whereas EoAF I struggle to get 9.

With Nids my list is VERY slow moving being comprises of 3x5 Zoeys, with GSC I'm bally due to BC drop and cars just die. On the other hand I often have scramblers so I will definitely be in opponent zone for 10+4, and it's usually easy to get another 2 units for 8pts LB. 12 is very common for me assuming I am not tabled, as I tend to have an Exocrene in their deployment zone wreaking havoc and a random lictor hanging out.

I forgot your list was triple Flyrants - I was thinking on the basis of 1 Flyrant only. The Sling is of course still good, but honestly not good enough to warrant giving up 5/10/15 VP.

Also, from memory nothing stops you from casting psychic actions if you fall back. Psychic Actions are not spells and are not Actions, and are not restricted from fall back rules.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

I think EoAF is a YMMV thing. I've gotten consistent 12pts on Line breaker regardless opponent, whereas EoAF I struggle to get 9.

With Nids my list is VERY slow moving being comprises of 3x5 Zoeys, with GSC I'm bally due to BC drop and cars just die. On the other hand I often have scramblers so I will definitely be in opponent zone for 10+4, and it's usually easy to get another 2 units for 8pts LB. 12 is very common for me assuming I am not tabled, as I tend to have an Exocrene in their deployment zone wreaking havoc and a random lictor hanging out.

Yeah, sounds right. Where as for me, unless they give me good options, it's a usually only 1 and 1 for LiW and scramblers. Sometimes have flyrants running amok as well, sometimes good opportunities for multiple, sometimes things get to stick around etc, but not reliably.

The Sling is of course still good, but honestly not good enough to warrant giving up 5/10/15 VP.

I mean, it can snowball into that much if your opponent stuffs up and leaves juicy (i.e. dangerous and invul-less) stuff without protection. But yeah, VP=good, and it's definitely not something that I need to have as my default course of action.

Also, why 5/10/15? Abhor? If so, yes, one of my main concerns with this list: I've actually wondered if basically ceding midfield entirely into some lists which take abhor, but then they just kill my scoring without very favourable terrain and I lose hard on primary .

Also, from memory nothing stops you from casting psychic actions if you fall back. Psychic Actions are not spells and are not Actions, and are not restricted from fall back rules.

Don't have the rules on me to check, but pretty sure that you can't do psychic actions if you fell back.

[vejby]

Fall back prevents actions in general, as does everything apart from a normal move more or less.

A neurothrope encircled by 5 zoans seems quite effective with the rerolls and healing, though I still don't have that many games off in 9th.

[kazetanade]

Oct 21, 2020 5:38:35 GMT No One said:

kazetanade said:

I think EoAF is a YMMV thing. I've gotten consistent 12pts on Line breaker regardless opponent, whereas EoAF I struggle to get 9.

With Nids my list is VERY slow moving being comprises of 3x5 Zoeys, with GSC I'm bally due to BC drop and cars just die. On the other hand I often have scramblers so I will definitely be in opponent zone for 10+4, and it's usually easy to get another 2 units for 8pts LB. 12 is very common for me assuming I am not tabled, as I tend to have an Exocrene in their deployment zone wreaking havoc and a random lictor hanging out.

Yeah, sounds right. Where as for me, unless they give me good options, it's a usually only 1 and 1 for LiW and scramblers. Sometimes have flyrants running amok as well, sometimes good opportunities for multiple, sometimes things get to stick around etc, but not reliably.

The Sling is of course still good, but honestly not good enough to warrant giving up 5/10/15 VP.

I mean, it can snowball into that much if your opponent stuffs up and leaves juicy (i.e. dangerous and invul-less) stuff without protection. But yeah, VP=good, and it's definitely not something that I need to have as my default course of action.

Also, why 5/10/15? Abhor? If so, yes, one of my main concerns with this list: I've actually wondered if basically ceding midfield entirely into some lists which take abhor, but then they just kill my scoring without very favourable terrain and I lose hard on primary .

Also, from memory nothing stops you from casting psychic actions if you fall back. Psychic Actions are not spells and are not Actions, and are not restricted from fall back rules.

Don't have the rules on me to check, but pretty sure that you can't do psychic actions if you fell back.

I thought Psychic Ritual is 5/10/15, which means SL being popped back and forth all the time should take priority. If it's 15VP, it's still pretty easy to get at the end of the day and you just dont take it if they're a psyker army or they're SUPER aggressive melee armies. 

Of course if someone plays bad and leave something that's important to be killed, you take it. I just meant the Sling tactic isnt one that we always need to use to get value and many times we cannot because of how things are positioned and where he has to be to make use of it.

Due to terrain layouts, I dont think you can cede the centre safely and still be in a strong position to win the game. Very difficult unless terrain allows it (ie the Center is blocked off from a lot of angles to objectives around it). 

[No One]

vejby said:

Fall back prevents actions in general, as does everything apart from a normal move more or less.

Psychic actions are much less restrictive: stop you performing other psychics, can't be done if you're doing an action, can't be done if you fell back. But that's it.

kazetanade said:

I thought Psychic Ritual is 5/10/15, which means SL being popped back and forth all the time should take priority. If it's 15VP, it's still pretty easy to get at the end of the day and you just dont take it if they're a psyker army or they're SUPER aggressive melee armies.

Yeah, just 15 if you've done it 3 times, otherwise 0.

[vejby]

Oct 21, 2020 8:29:17 GMT No One said:

vejby said:

Fall back prevents actions in general, as does everything apart from a normal move more or less.

Psychic actions are much less restrictive: stop you performing other psychics, can't be done if you're doing an action, can't be done if you fell back. But that's it. 

That is quite nice - I actually had them as the same in my mind, but I stand corrected - thanks.

[No One]

Had a team tournament with the list, went well. (NB: Scores not including painting)

Game 1 - TS, comfortable win. Struggled to deal with the flyrants with me making plenty of 4++, and shadows/denies (and one psychic fissure where he failed 4 and just stopped trying) gimped his psychic. 76-28. Team went 6-0, which was...a bit too good.
Game 2 - Very close game against Scars. His T1 he killed Swarmlord but bounced off flyrants in combat, then died to strike backs and counter charges. Killed basically everything, except leviathan (which went around killing stuff) and 12 eradicators which showed up and blew up both flyrants. Last couple of turns just scrounging for points/deny points. But it worked, 67-49. Team went 1-5 (see what I mean about round 1 going too well?)
Game 3 - Knights. Not much to say, got 1st, super flyrant killed a kastellan, killed both other knights T2. 85-16. Team again went 6-0, soo...we'll see going into tomorrow.

Day 2:
Game 4 - TS again. Despite box cars from his lascannons onto my full health flyrant (RIP), he struggled to deal with all of the acolyte squads, especially with flyrants running around in his face and tagging/killing rubrics. Comfortable 85 to 43. Team went 4-2.
Game 5 - Nids, double exo HG and a bunch of fexes. Was his first tournament (and exhausted at game 5), and it showed. Didn't screen me at all, didn't deploy on objectives and didn't deploy for fire lanes around centre LoS blocker. Did get first and wipe a flyrant with HG though :frowning: . But again, flyrant killed exo, tagged HG and forced him to come back to deal with him, while acos just ran up midfield basically uncontested, with any large advance getting advance and charge and murdering a fex or something. Brutal 82-19: still an actual game, unlike the knights. Team went 5-1.

Team went 4-1 overall with mostly comfortable victories and ended up taking 3rd, which I'm super stoked about.

[No One]

Had a tournament today with the double flyrant/Swarmlord/60 TH acolytes. Went...OK, but not as well as I was wanting.

Quick run down:
Game 1 vs Deathwing with double talonmasters. Just locked him in his deployment as much as I could while he chewed through my army: some deployment/movement errors on his part meant I could kill the apoth T1 and the rites of war talonmaster/chappy T2. Couldn't get through the termis, but without ob sec could control him (and he took linebreaker and couldn't score it: he didn't realise it was 2 wholly within).

Game 2 vs DG+daemons. 9 myphitics+characters and a bloodletter bomb. Flyrants and Swarmy slowly ground out a unit of myphitic on his left flank, but acos bounced of the centre one and warptime meant he got a charge to eventually clear one of my backfield objectives, and I didn't screen out the bloodletter bomb (wasn't sure if I could without being vulnerable to losing that objective to his plagueburst), so that knocked me off another. Couldn't quite capitalise to really pressure his objectives, and he ran away on primary with a reasonable secondary lead.

Game 3 vs IH playing an astraes and 6 dreads. He got first, I couldn't hide (was an obscuring piece, but movement was sufficient to draw LoS). I lost 1/3 of my army and had no real way to punch back. Also super-flyrant whiffed. Made a couple of other mistakes, but don't think I could've done anything to prevent it apart from sticking stuff in reserve and banking on 8" charges/that being enough after he'd had 2 turns to run through my DZ. And losing 2 tyrants before they got to do anything wasn't really a position I could come back from.

Game 4 vs DG: Morty and some assorted stuff. Much more how I wanted things to do: acos steal objectives, flyrants are hard to kill and slowly ground down the 4++/5+++. He still had Morty while I basically only had a flyrant and some dregs, but I had most of the objectives reasonably firmly under control, so comfortable win.


Want to do up a report of the first game against DG: think there's probably some takeaways there. But ultimately, haven't been super enthused about the 2nd flyrant as anything other than another 4++ body flying about being annoying. The damage was sometimes there, sometimes not. And also, the 6+ explode 100% felt worse than the rr 1s. You lose so much consistency and it's so bad into -1. Patty and hive guard both felt meh: patty failed MO so many times, and didn't do much even when successful. Rarely made combat, and didn't always do anything impactful even when he did. Hive guard I want shooting, but hive guard without Kronos is...so eh.
So, new list idea. If the 2nd flyrant didn't do much that I needed, and lacking Kronos hurts the hive guard, and I don't care about SoT...

Kronos Battalion
HQ Flyrant /w double scy tals, AG, TS. -1 CP Adapt: Monstrous Size.
Relic: Barbed
Powers: Catalyst, paroxysm
Warlord: Adaptive Biology (the -1 dam one)
HQ Neurothrope
Powers: Symbiostorm
HQ Swarmlord
Powers: Onslaught, catalyst
Troops 3 rippers
Troops 10 terms
Troops 10 terms
Elite 6 Hive Guard


TH Battalion
HQ Primus
HQ Magus+crouchling
Cult's Psyche
Powers: Hypnosis, might, stimulus
Troops 10 acos /w icon
Troops 10 acos /w icon
Troops 15 acos, 14 /w flamers and icon
Troops 10 acos, 3 saws /w icon
Troops 10 acos, 3 saws /w icon
Troops 10 acos /w icon
Elite Nexos
Elite Clamavus


So, parox I'm not sure on: something to counter fight last and punish counter-charge units. But might be better for just scream or horror for more versatility. And then patty->primus for more reliable combat buffs if needed (and with TH+clam likely around somewhere, should be able to deliver it), and 50 odd points to fill out the flamer acos.


Had one game so far (though minor change, hadn't thought about the '1 CP -1 dam' line. Would've worked out pretty meh: triggered easy for 1 wound, but then was basically ignored as it ran through his backline): was a loss, but a very close one where I was winning on board (he just had odds and sods, I had odds and sods and a flyrant). Some bad luck, some mistakes, and taking ritual and getting spiked out (which was maybe a mistake, or maybe just a risk that the odds didn't work out on. Not sure) meant I wasn't quite able to capitalise into a VP lead. But list worked well: flamer acos did actual damage, primus helped push through a bit of damage once or twice, hive guard...I dunno if I'd go so far as to say they dissapointed, but definitely some points where they could've been a lot more impactful than they actually were. And then my opponent charged them with an impulsor because I'd deployed them forward (thinking I'd just move back/screen, rather than cop T1 of no shooting. Then forgetting 14" move and he made the 8" charge). So that was my bad, could definitely have had them shooting longer. Wouldn't have had the CP to double shoot, but oh well. I think that I just need to play more conservatively, especially against another melee list: I was playing a bit more conservatively, with some of my units back and not going for anything T1 with the flyrant, but some aco units moved up to minimal purpose and just died to shooting (would've been OK if they didn't die, but...they still would've been able to do stuff).

Anyway, want to do a batrep on that too: list definitely felt solid. Just need to work out the kinks in play.

[beetlejuice]

Game 3 sounds like a major terrain issue. Do you find your tyrant running into a lot of T7 targets? Otherwise you’re basically paying for AP-4 and 4D which is overkill on a lot of his prefered targets that are either 3 or 5+W, and then usually have some invuln which makes the whole physiology basically useless. If you stack accelerated digestion with -1D trait and catalyst you are almost at exalted lord of change durability.

I know it’s a bit of a gamble not doubling up on catalyst, but psychic scream on the tyrant is an easy extra d3 MW that makes him harder to tarpit and easier to crack multiwound models if you leave him at 3D. Paroxysm risks being a useless in a lot of matchups basically wasting a cast from resonance barb. I’d consider horror over 2nd catalyst on SL. In games where you face spam/target saturation lists horror/mass hypnosis really helps to mitigate the output of 1-2 units when you are busy killing another. Saved my neck countless times vs custodes for example that hit on 2+ rerolling ones who then go from basically all hits to missing on 2s. Has also helped cracking morale on large units of paladin/terminator equivalents when you can’t reliably wipe the squad but kill maybe 5-6, so much value when they lose another 1-2 to morale and attrition. Even better for MO if you decide to bring patty back.

Do you find the 10 mans do enough work or are you missing a bigger unit for PA? I think more medium sized units is better (I don’t have enough models for that) even if a little less synergy from might from beyond/mutagenic deviation. I find it harder and harder to motivate any of our 3CP stratagems these days anyway...