GSC+Flyrant spam

[No One]

beetlejuice said:

Game 3 sounds like a major terrain issue.

Eh, I wouldn't go so far as to say 'major': it's not like it was planet bowling ball. But the terrain definitely didn't help and should've done more, yes.

Do you find your tyrant running into a lot of T7 targets? Otherwise you’re basically paying for AP-4 and 4D which is overkill on a lot of his prefered targets that are either 3 or 5+W, and then usually have some invuln which makes the whole physiology basically useless. If you stack accelerated digestion with -1D trait and catalyst you are almost at exalted lord of change durability.

A lot of T7? No. Enough that I don't want to be completely useless if I run into some? Yes. AP-4 isn't great, but it's nice to be able to take out non-stormshield marines with no save etc.

The D4 is what I'm really after. TWC, outriders, W3 with apoth, lets me spike out some Chars with either 6 or implant (and reliably take down W7/8 with 2 wounds through), Vehicles/MCs do exist, Custodes terminators, ATVs (apoth does make it more awkward: but it'd be even more awkward with Dam3). Lots of stuff where D4 is really strong, basically turning him into 'invul or die'.

Accelerated digestion seems a bit 'win more': big bird is so much more durable base, because the -1 dam trait requires proc'ing. Which I think I should be able to do with some reliability (overwatch/punches back if I'm not overruning), but it doesn't do anything if I'm just spiked out before losing the wound, where as size at least does something if I've made combat in that instance, or if the -1 doesn't do enough to actually survive, rather than just forcing more damage. And if I'm running around their backline, not in combat and able to charge whatever I want to kill, I think I'm in a good spot regardless.

Edit: OK, rest of the stuff.

I know it’s a bit of a gamble not doubling up on catalyst, but psychic scream on the tyrant is an easy extra d3 MW that makes him harder to tarpit and easier to crack multiwound models if you leave him at 3D. Paroxysm risks being a useless in a lot of matchups basically wasting a cast from resonance barb. I’d consider horror over 2nd catalyst on SL. In games where you face spam/target saturation lists horror/mass hypnosis really helps to mitigate the output of 1-2 units when you are busy killing another. Saved my neck countless times vs custodes for example that hit on 2+ rerolling ones who then go from basically all hits to missing on 2s. Has also helped cracking morale on large units of paladin/terminator equivalents when you can’t reliably wipe the squad but kill maybe 5-6, so much value when they lose another 1-2 to morale and attrition. Even better for MO if you decide to bring patty back.

So, I'm not certain either. But...A: Parox is a massively impactful power if I can put them in a position where their only way of dealing with my flyrant is a counter-charge unit (e.g. in my game, I basically killed one erad and tagged the other: he had a unit of TWC nearby, but I parox'ed them, they charged, I fought first and killed them all. With D4 ). Or it'll force them to just shoot me to death and not be able to shoot something else and just free charge kill the flyrant. If they don't have counter-charge, I think that probably puts me in a good position, match up wise. Not certain about this though for sure.

Horror vs cat on Swarmlord...if I lose flyrant early, it's probably a single cast of it, and I'd probably be going for onslaught+smite that turn anyway so not wasting stuff. Then flyrant probably dies, and I'll definitely want to be able to cast cat over horror. If flyrant doesn't die, I'm probably in a good spot and wouldn't need an extra -1: unless that -1 actually contributed to why he lived, but that also is predicated on being in range and LoS of important unit (probably back) with Swarmlord i.e. slower unit who wants to be hiding.

Do you find the 10 mans do enough work or are you missing a bigger unit for PA? I think more medium sized units is better (I don’t have enough models for that) even if a little less synergy from might from beyond/mutagenic deviation. I find it harder and harder to motivate any of our 3CP stratagems these days anyway...

I never PA with this list: it wants to start on board and advance+charge, because I don't have the CP. If I do have the CP somehow, I do have the 15 man with flamers.

That said, I'm not 100% on the 10 man: I did have a 10 man charge a unit of incursors and fail to kill them even with might because transhuman (though they did also roll a 3 on charge so couldn't all get in), and I have been dissapointed in damage sometimes. But they're not supposed to be big damage units, so much as 'enough damage to not die and steal objectives' and/or just generally bully/kill smaller, 'squishier' units. Being able to hide is pretty important, which is part of the reason for the 10 man.

[No One]

Had some success with the list (went 2-2: close loss to SW, smashed by dark technomancer DE, losing >800 pts before my first turn, and smashed DA and GK).

Quick thoughts:
- Parox was very nice, did basically what I wanted. Only concern is the 18" range really: the lack of LoS is also nice
- Flyrant was great: very impactful, never felt the lack of the 3rd tyrant or the S7 (though I also never made combat with the T6-8 vehicles...). And rr 1s was much better than 6s. Consistency!
- Hive guard were...fine? They usually did decent damage, gave me a shooting threat that basically needed to be dealt with, drained resources and sometimes spiked massively. Just need to make sure they're either protected and/or punish anything that engages on them, which basically just means I need to know what I'm doing with the acos better. Slightly more defensive play with them worked well when applicable.
- Acos were great. Apart from one unit in my first game (SW), and the second game being what it was, I think every unit made a charge before suffering meaningful casualties. One thing is that I sometimes find the 10 man no saws to not quite have the oomph, and I've always got a dedicated unit for scramblers, which feels like maybe a waste at 10 man with icon.
- Clamavus felt like a liability for assassinate: +1/+1 is good, but -3 VP is not.
- -1 dam would've procc'ed without taking meaningful damage in all bar 2nd game (and I think that was just a loss), which would've ranged from 'nice surety' to 'very impactful'.

So, reasonably happy with mostly leaving as is: only changes I'm thinking is dropping the clam and one squad down to a stock 5 man. Which leaves 110 pts I don't know what to spend on. Adding 5 acos to a 10 man squad seems fine, but don't want to go too overboard on that: 10 mans are nice to hide, 15 man...less so. Other thoughts? (Exo/ridgerunner is something that I've toyed with for TTS, but don't have models). Lictor instead of the clam is also possibly an option (also don't have, but not averse to picking up/again, TTS), but then I don't have really have lying in wait as an option without using the flamer squad, which is awkward to fit.

[kazetanade]

KELLERMORPH.

[No One]

ASSASSINATE. It did cross my mind, and then I remembered why I wanted to drop clam in the first place.

[kazetanade]

Fair. You have way more characters than I do in most lists.

What about a gaggle of biovores or pyrovores?

[No One]

Not sure why you're suggesting pyros...I don't think I really need backfield action monkeys. Biovores is an idea, but I don't know if 1-2 bios is impactful at move blocking, especially with -1 cap, and it's not like psychic's a relevant part of the meta to be concerned with chucking down Kronos spore mines...(Also only have one biovore, though not a dealbreaker). Might have a muck about on TTS, but I'm not sure what I'd be really move blocking: feels to small to block stuff like bikes/TWC/dreads, and how much vehicles/MCs are there around? Especially that don't have Fly/equiv? KoS/impulsors I guess?

[beetlejuice]

I’d say exocrine since you’ve already payed the overhead with kronos det and symbio neuro. If you want moveblock I’d suggest mawloc, that would only put you at 3 monsters for bring it down right?

[kazetanade]

If you haven't got an exocrene yet then definitely exo.

Bio and Pyro are for blocking, pushing out xeepstrike, and monkey blocking with cheap flamer bodies. But really the only thing you can add that makes sense and contributes positively is a kellermorph, unless you make changes to the list itself.

[gorsameth]

You had both -1dmg and size on the Tyrant?
The stratagem to take a 2nd adaptation specifically says it can't be used on a model that already has an adaptation.

[No One]

-1 dam is a WLT, not adapt. Don't know if it's worth, might be better to just take the ignore -1/-2 on the hive guard, but I think if they're getting shot it doesn't help them enough to live, where as this at least has the potential to strongly close out a game if I can trigger it on the charge.

[hiveoverall]

Jan 15, 2021 11:22:07 GMT No One said:

-1 dam is a WLT, not adapt. Don't know if it's worth, might be better to just take the ignore -1/-2 on the hive guard, but I think if they're getting shot it doesn't help them enough to live, where as this at least has the potential to strongly close out a game if I can trigger it on the charge.

If you play against an imperial guard army with two souped up manticores then you will be very happy you adapted the hive guard, but don't really what else in the meta makes ignore -1/-2 on the hive guard very relevant.

Is your list still the same post faq ?

[No One]

With only a T5 4+, any anti-infantry with -1/-2 will hurt (of which there's a lot). So ignoring stuff like doctrine bolters, reaper warriors, custodes is all nice. Are those what I'm concerned about losing HG to? Eh.

And no, I got ~75 pts (including dropping the hand flamers), also dropped the mawloc. Trying out a 25 man devilgant squad and swapping one of the terms to a min warrior squad. Not sold so far, but they haven't felt bad.

[hiveoverall]

Jan 15, 2021 13:36:53 GMT No One said:

With only a T5 4+, any anti-infantry with -1/-2 will hurt (of which there's a lot). So ignoring stuff like doctrine bolters, reaper warriors, custodes is all nice. Are those what I'm concerned about losing HG to? Eh.

And no, I got ~75 pts (including dropping the hand flamers), also dropped the mawloc. Trying out a 25 man devilgant squad and swapping one of the terms to a min warrior squad. Not sold so far, but they haven't felt bad.

Do you just outflank the 25 devilgaunts ? Min warrior squads seem great, but I have yet to try them, is still have a few doubts just like you, before being totally sold.

[No One]

Yeah, devilgants in strat reserve: good use of 1 CP, but I'm already pretty low on CP.

[kazetanade]

Any feel on the devilgants? I tried a similar version with Necron Particle Cannon Tomb Blades, felt pretty terrible to be honest (54 shots at 2+ to hit is approx 45 hits so same as devilgants, but 3+ to wound most times). No point throwing buckets of dice at something if it's all going to get saved (dealt a total of 3 wounds to a Primaris squad).

Anyway since BiD changes are really good for Flyrants and Ridgerunners, why not try pairing these two together? 6 + 2 Flyrants is only 10Pts for BiD. From memory your list is flooded with unecessary characters and dropping one-2 of them will get enough points to get 3 RRs at least. If you dont have the models you should get them - they're pretty decent to build and not very finicky. I just got a bit sick of building 6 of them.