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Post by gorsameth on Aug 19, 2020 14:27:53 GMT
what use do you see for the 5man Acolytes?
5 don't have a lot of punch, and if you want cheap deepstrikers for secondaries why not spend 10 points more and double the number of wounds your putting down by using Brood Brothers?
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 19, 2020 16:45:48 GMT
what use do you see for the 5man Acolytes? 5 don't have a lot of punch, and if you want cheap deepstrikers for secondaries why not spend 10 points more and double the number of wounds your putting down by using Brood Brothers? What are you willing to give up to make 50 points for bb? |
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Post by gorsameth on Aug 19, 2020 17:10:30 GMT
what use do you see for the 5man Acolytes? 5 don't have a lot of punch, and if you want cheap deepstrikers for secondaries why not spend 10 points more and double the number of wounds your putting down by using Brood Brothers? What are you willing to give up to make 50 points for bb? 3x10 BB instead of 4x5 Acolytes (well, 1 6). would be an initial thought, or drop one of the Ripper squads. its just that spending 8ppm for a unit trying to hide and do basically nothing feels like a wasted opportunity when you have 5 point alternatives. And killing 5 GEQ is such a minimal investment asked of your opponent. That said you don't have a lot of targets for your opponents anti infantry shooting so an argument can be made that whatever you drop is going to get shot off anyway so being 5 or 10 bodies doesn't make a real difference and point investment is all that matters. |
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 19, 2020 17:56:34 GMT
gorsameth that's exactly right - this list has to utilize it's ability to move in order to avoid bad touches, or extremely good target priority and the counter charge threat to keep things out of our grill, not rely on big hordes to absorb charges. Uence, Having MORE disposable units that can be thrown at precise moments gives you far more value than less of a bigger unit that dies to marginally more investment. As an example, my list will score Line breaker (T2 and T3, highly possible T4) and Scramblers (100% chance), while giving me the *potential* to deny 5vp 3 turns in a row. With only 1 ripper and 3 BBs, you can maybe do Line Breaker for 2 turns only, maybe deny an objective on T3. Games are won on objectives, not purely killing power.
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Post by gorsameth on Aug 19, 2020 19:56:18 GMT
you would have 3 BB's and 2 rippers or 4 BB's and 1 ripper. As opposed to the 4 Acolytes and 2 rippers you have now, but an extra 10/11 wounds. (Plus the saw squad, that doesn't come into this)
And no where do I talk about winning on killing power. No where do I talk about using hordes to absorb charges. What you use the squads for doesn't change, there ability to survive for another turn does.
I am talking about the ease with which 5 GEQ get removed, compared to 10 GEQ.
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Post by beetlejuice on Aug 19, 2020 23:08:32 GMT
you would have 3 BB's and 2 rippers or 4 BB's and 1 ripper. As opposed to the 4 Acolytes and 2 rippers you have now, but an extra 10/11 wounds. (Plus the saw squad, that doesn't come into this) And no where do I talk about winning on killing power. No where do I talk about using hordes to absorb charges. What you use the squads for doesn't change, there ability to survive for another turn does. I am talking about the ease with which 5 GEQ get removed, compared to 10 GEQ. I think this line of thinking may have merit now that opponents can’t count on morale to finish off the squad. Had a single BB survive a knight in melee last game which was clutch in denying melta overwatch. Depending on terrain, 5 man might be hideable outside los which makes survivability superior. |
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Post by No One on Aug 20, 2020 1:47:39 GMT
As an example, my list will score Line breaker (T2 and T3, highly possible T4) and Scramblers (100% chance), while giving me the *potential* to deny 5vp 3 turns in a row. With only 1 ripper and 3 BBs, you can maybe do Line Breaker for 2 turns only, maybe deny an objective on T3. One additional advantage to BB is they can more easily daisy chain to steal 2 objectives with lying in wait if an opportunity presents itself. Depending on terrain, 5 man might be hideable outside los which makes survivability superior. BB are 25 mm vs acos 32s. It's pretty similar. |
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 20, 2020 3:51:40 GMT
you would have 3 BB's and 2 rippers or 4 BB's and 1 ripper. As opposed to the 4 Acolytes and 2 rippers you have now, but an extra 10/11 wounds. (Plus the saw squad, that doesn't come into this) And no where do I talk about winning on killing power. No where do I talk about using hordes to absorb charges. What you use the squads for doesn't change, there ability to survive for another turn does. I am talking about the ease with which 5 GEQ get removed, compared to 10 GEQ. Well if that's your only takeaway... 🤷 At the end of the day either works. I wanted to use Acolytes because I can squeeze more units and more utility into it by going for a lower point cost. Having the extra throwaway unit in my SM games have proven extremely valuable for Scramblers, and we all know the merit of having multiple units of chaff hiding in different places on the enemy's board. You're not gonna lose the game just by moving these points in BBs instead, so give it a whirl. The end concept is still the same anyway. Edit: my reference to won on objectives is about having more units to continue stealing objectives. Killing power is not our killing power, but the enemy's. What this boils down to is enemies usually having much higher killing power but minimal obsec scoring, so having more Obsec units to steal on subsequent turns will probably be better on account of both 5 men and 10 men squads are easy to wipe for minimal increased focus. |
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Post by wormlord666 on Aug 20, 2020 6:19:01 GMT
what use do you see for the 5man Acolytes? 5 don't have a lot of punch, and if you want cheap deepstrikers for secondaries why not spend 10 points more and double the number of wounds your putting down by using Brood Brothers? You have good arguments and BB might work just as well or better. I´ll try Aco´s and see what I think. I like that a five man squad is easy to hide. I like that I can have the option och advance and charge to tie something up. I will also make one of them 4armed emperor just to have the possibility to play "A Plan generations ..." Test game tonight so i´ll get back to you with thoughts after that. |
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Post by wormlord666 on Aug 20, 2020 19:40:47 GMT
Report from testgame with the Kaze-inspired list from above. I faced a friend with salamanders. Agressors, grav devastators, relic scorpius, blade guards, eradicators, speeders and so on. Potent list and a good player (former etc player) so it was a serious test.
Dawn of war. I choose engage, bring it down and scrambler. He choose while we stand, bring it and engage on all.
He went first. I resever exo and via return to shadows 3 aco’s and the cult characters.
He did not drop his pod T1 since I had blipped well. So I had most buggies left. I focused on clearing objectives from speeders and scouts and pushed buggies up and duoblemoved rippers to engage all.
The scenario kept on like this with me clearing him of objectives and slowly taking the board.
I won primarys 40-30, and I think also secondarys 32-30 (?).
Really happy about the list, the 9 buggies are tough to kill and his gravstrat did not kick in since they only have 4+ save.
The Rusted claw spell helped kill the scorpius wich stood on objective and was one of his models for while we stand so killing it was worth a lot.
Kellermorph was a valuable tool. Turned into a hero in the last turn when he killed the superbike captain and took 5 points more from him.
I did burn CP. Return to shadows, double run rippers, hiveguards all wanted cp.
I did not get to fight with aco’s. He made a 12” charge with aggressors and killed them. Could have played them better.
I will shuffle things around a bit and see if there are things to improve but the basics I think I’ll stick to. Mayby a tournament next week. We’ll see.
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Post by wormlord666 on Aug 21, 2020 5:08:00 GMT
One more argument for broodbrothers: The Magus did not have anyone to take unquestioning loyalty for her since i had mixed battalion . I missed that. I’ll see what I can do to get 10 BB in.
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Post by wormlord666 on Aug 25, 2020 14:41:47 GMT
I will be attending a 5 games event this weekend. This is my BCP submission. It is the list inspired by Kazetande so i have a tribute to him as well. I do not at all expect to win the event, it is filled with local hotshots in Sweden with current and former WTC players so it will be rough but I hope to have fun, win more than I lose and I hope the list to gives me a chance in to play in every matchup.
Holy are the Gods we serve! Blessed are we who prepare their arrival! This day is the day our ancestors have been awaiting, Glory, Glory, Glory!
Arch Primus Kazetande III
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [71 PL, 1,325pts, 11CP] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Cult Creed: None (Mixed Detachment)
Detachment CP
+ HQ +
Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 75pts]: Autopistol, Blasting Charges, Jackal Sniper Rifle, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Hivelord (Hivecult)
Magus [5 PL, 100pts, -1CP]: Autopistol, Cultist Knife, Familiar, Force stave, Power: Might From Beyond, Power: Mind Control, Power: Unescapable Decay, Stratagem: The Cult's Psyche, The Crouchling (Rusted claw)
Primus [4 PL, 85pts]: Blasting Charges, Bonesword, Needle Pistol, Toxin Injector Claw (Bladed cog)
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts] (Four armed emperor)
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Blasting Charges, Cultist Knife, Rending Claw
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts] (Bladed Cog)
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Blasting Charges, Cultist Knife, Rending Claw
Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 130pts]: Cult Icon (Bladed cog)
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid: 5x Autopistol, 5x Blasting Charges, 5x Cultist Knife, 5x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Blasting Charges, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Blasting Charges, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Blasting Charges, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Blasting Charges, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Blasting Charges, Cultist Knife, Rending Claw
Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 50pts]
. 9x Brood Brother: 9x Frag Grenades, 9x Lasgun
. Brood Brothers Leader: Chainsword, Frag Grenades, Laspistol
+ Elites +
Kelermorph [3 PL, 80pts]: Cultist Knife, 3x Liberator Autostub (Hivecult)
+ Fast Attack + (all Hivecult)
Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
+ Dedicated Transport +
Goliath Truck [4 PL, 95pts]: Cache of Demolition Charges, Heavy Stubber, Twin Autocannon
(Bladed Cog)
++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Tyranids) [32 PL, 674pts, -3CP] ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment CP [-2CP]
+ Stratagems +
Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Neurothrope [4 PL, 95pts]: Claws and Teeth, Power: Symbiostorm
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]
. 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]
. 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
+ Elites +
Hive Guard [13 PL, 300pts]
. 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]: Flesh Hooks, Grasping Talons, Rending Claws
+ Heavy Support +
Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts]: Bio-plasmic Cannon, Powerful Limbs
. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
++ Total: [105 PL, 8CP, 1,999pts] ++
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Post by wormlord666 on Aug 30, 2020 17:06:10 GMT
Back from tournament. Here is some reports and thoughts about the list.
Game 1.
Opponent whitescars. Everything onside the Indomutus boxes plus some incursors, gravdevastators and and impuslor.
Hammer anvil with 4 objectives.
I choose mission specific, behind enemy lines and scrambler.
The mission specific was a win-more/loose-more choice since I needed to hold 2 objectives to win primary anyway.
I got first turn and that was needed since I’d gottenincursors and bikes in my deployment zone otherwise. I fought my best bit it was a good opponent (old WTC captain) he played better and hid his expensive stuff, countered well end when gravs and erdicators ententered my runners thinner out or got locked and he won big. I got 53 p with paint. Both primary and secondary was fail.
Next game against Death Guard. Plagueburstcrawlers and marines. Corner to corner. Again mission specific, deploy scrambler and engage. This did go better. He got first. Flamed my truck with some crazy character. I baited a little bit the truck hoping to get out with saws and get a good charge in but that was a mistake since he killed the truck so easily and could kill the acolytes with mortars. But I had a killer shootingphase and cleared all marines and dammaged a tank badly so I could play missionfocused from there and won with 80-70.
Game three was Iron warriors demon engine bonanza. I got first turn, dawn of war, 9 lasers, 8 hiveguards. That was good. I crippled him there and he had uphill. He fought well and in the end it was even but lying in wait scored med a few stolen points. Linebreaker, bring it down and scrambler. 79 p.
Game 3 was against chaos again. Tyrant knight, qardogs and lots of demons pink horrors and screamers. Tricky list since he could split the horrors and gain boardcontrol by that. The knight had 4++ and 30w, so it was more or less unkillable.
Score was in the end 68-75 so it was tight and I mad som mistakes
so mayby I should have won. Going fiirst would have helped.
Game 5 I was crushed by Dark Angels. It wasn’t pretty but I scrambled, got 11 engage and 30 primary so at least ok.
Thoughts:
My problem is that I make it easy for the opponent to priorataize. They choose bring it down, focus on my buggies, which they’d have to kill anyway since they are deadly and I push them onobjectives. I rarely maxed out on secondaries so I was behind almost from start there.
The list tries to many things, I cant fuel it up with CP and support.
The Magus hardly did anything. The antivehicle spel was not needed since I had lasers and many vehicles have inv saves anyway.
The rocksaws in truck scared people but was hard to use. Acolytes die SO fast now. Anything kills them. I thing acolytes need to be suicide squads coming in from deep.
I need a third secondary. Many used while we stand we fight. I’ll se what I can do about that.
Ridgerunner are good but give up bring it down. If they are in, mayby go full monster vehicle list and use Multiple threat overload?
Scout moves, infiltrate, redeploy is strong. I’d consider sporemines of all sorts.
Fun weekend but 2-3 was expected but not satisfying.
The event was won by ba/whitescars mix. Demons second.
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Post by N.I.B. on Aug 30, 2020 19:44:36 GMT
Thanks for the feedback, what was the name of the event? We've had a few small club tournaments up here in the north.
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Post by wormlord666 on Aug 31, 2020 3:48:10 GMT
Thanks for the feedback, what was the name of the event? We've had a few small club tournaments up here in the north. Varberg GT 2020 (but we were only 26 so no GT) |
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