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Post by N.I.B. on Aug 17, 2020 11:54:40 GMT
FLyrants are amazing right now because obscuring terrain makes it so if they cant see the BASE of the model at all, it is obscured, the wings no longer count. That's not how it works. I think you're confusing Obscured with Dense terrain - if you can see the model (draw a 1mm thin bead to the tip of a wing for instance) on the side of Obscuring terrain, the model is visible. |
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Post by No One on Aug 17, 2020 13:13:18 GMT
Yeah, that. Still strong, since you don't need to worry about how high your wings are, but width is still an issue.
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Post by tallthor on Aug 17, 2020 21:48:07 GMT
FLyrants are amazing right now because obscuring terrain makes it so if they cant see the BASE of the model at all, it is obscured, the wings no longer count. That's not how it works. I think you're confusing Obscured with Dense terrain - if you can see the model (draw a 1mm thin bead to the tip of a wing for instance) on the side of Obscuring terrain, the model is visible. Not if you measure to the base, which would make sense since it is the same thing as you would do to measure fdor obscuring terrain. Shouldnt be a problem since you can just turn the model so that the wings are parrellel to the shooter. |
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Post by No One on Aug 18, 2020 0:24:49 GMT
Not if you measure to the base, which would make sense since it is the same thing as you would do to measure fdor obscuring terrain. Except it's not the same. That's what we were saying. If this terrain feature is at least 3" in height, then subtract 1 from the hit roll when resolving an attack with a ranged weapon unless you can draw straight lines, 1mm in thickness, to every part of at least one model’s base Base for dense. If this terrain feature is at least 5" in height, then models cannot see through or over this terrain feature. This means that one model is not visible to another if you cannot draw a straight line, 1mm in thickness, between them without it passing through or over any part of this terrain feature. Blocks LoS for obscuring. That's only a partial solution: your opponent's not going to have one stationary guy shooting you. So you can never be completely parallel: enough that they have to move (and if they can't move enough) or to cut out some units? Likely. But completely immune? Depends. |
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Post by tallthor on Aug 18, 2020 4:33:15 GMT
Not if you measure to the base, which would make sense since it is the same thing as you would do to measure fdor obscuring terrain. Except it's not the same. That's what we were saying. If this terrain feature is at least 3" in height, then subtract 1 from the hit roll when resolving an attack with a ranged weapon unless you can draw straight lines, 1mm in thickness, to every part of at least one model’s base Base for dense. If this terrain feature is at least 5" in height, then models cannot see through or over this terrain feature. This means that one model is not visible to another if you cannot draw a straight line, 1mm in thickness, between them without it passing through or over any part of this terrain feature. Blocks LoS for obscuring. That's only a partial solution: your opponent's not going to have one stationary guy shooting you. So you can never be completely parallel: enough that they have to move (and if they can't move enough) or to cut out some units? Likely. But completely immune? Depends. Jesus GW cant you just make it all the same thing and make it simple for once. |
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Post by 1ofmany on Aug 18, 2020 19:41:56 GMT
Art of War 40k released a terrain vid which shows base to base for checking if the terrain feature is in effect. True line of site is for checking visibility afterwards. www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhTZv8YuqC4From the aow40k twitch chat: Hi, a question on your new terrain vid. When checking for Obscuring, do you really check base to base? Because I've heard from most that it's any part of the model and base to base only applies to Dense. NeilKerr : b2b for range and checking if terrain effects apply. Model for visibility. As Nick said. Neil is apparently the head WTC judge and they trust his judgment, they said. |
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Post by gorsameth on Aug 18, 2020 22:56:12 GMT
Art of War 40k released a terrain vid which shows base to base for checking if the terrain feature is in effect. True line of site is for checking visibility afterwards. www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhTZv8YuqC4From the aow40k twitch chat: Hi, a question on your new terrain vid. When checking for Obscuring, do you really check base to base? Because I've heard from most that it's any part of the model and base to base only applies to Dense. NeilKerr : b2b for range and checking if terrain effects apply. Model for visibility. As Nick said. Neil is apparently the head ITC judge and they trust his judgment, they said. Are these the same people that thought touching Obscured terrain made it invisible? |
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Post by N.I.B. on Aug 19, 2020 5:30:14 GMT
Art of War 40k released a terrain vid which shows base to base for checking if the terrain feature is in effect. True line of site is for checking visibility afterwards. www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhTZv8YuqC4From the aow40k twitch chat: Hi, a question on your new terrain vid. When checking for Obscuring, do you really check base to base? Because I've heard from most that it's any part of the model and base to base only applies to Dense. NeilKerr : b2b for range and checking if terrain effects apply. Model for visibility. As Nick said. Neil is apparently the head ITC judge and they trust his judgment, they said. So any part of the model (like tip of the wing) as we've been saying. |
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 19, 2020 6:58:25 GMT
I may have a tournament coming up in a few weeks and the list above is one option. Before Covid i played a few toruramnets with Forces of The hive mind and if I like to stay in that ITC section I have experimented with combos with Hiveguards and Cult. I have one extreme version I´d like to test: Hivecult Battalion Jackal A Primus 5 Aco squads. 3 Five man, and 2 bigger with saws/Cutters 9 Ridgerunners Kronos Patrol Neuro 2 rippers 12 Hiveguards This is an unbalanced list and is a bit of a cointoss. If I face the wrong oponent on the wrong map I will struggle. But I shoot like crazy. I have speed in the buggies. I will have a devastating frst turn with the hiveguards reaching a lot now and the RR blipdeployed and movin 14 or scout move + move. They will see stuff and kill stuff. I can place scrambler/engare and the three most expensive models are my characters so I can get 15 p there. I will of course give upp Bring it down. The acolytes will have to work unsupported and mostly just steal points or act as countercharges. Any thoughts? Do you think it´l work? I hope to try it next week. Try as follows: GSC Batt Jackal(HC), Primus(BC), Magus(RC) 1 x 10 Acolytes with 4 Saws (BC) (with Truck) ?? x 5 Acolytes as chaff (whichever) Kellermorph (HC) 9 Ridgerunners (HC) Kronos Patrol Neuro 2 x 3 Rippers 1 x 6 HG 1-2 x Exocrenes (and maybe pods) RC Magus makes HG adept vehicle hunters with the spell to -1ap. You can then focus the Exocrenes on the elites instead. Kellermorph sets up Ridgerunners to slaughter slightly tougher infantry with another +1 to hit from Chilling Efficiency, and in desperate times can even do so for vehicles. BC Acolytes create a risk zone for people to charge with their elites, putting them in the transport stops them getting wiped out for free, transport can ignore ap-1 and 2 and has 6+++. Plus the transport can guarantee explodes. Primus + Magus supports this unit to make their suicide charge extremely potent. 1 HG instead of 2 in order to maintain size and space to hide, and allows Exocrenes which are pt for pt best shooting in Nids codex now (always were at optimum, but double whammy when moving made them a trap until strategem fixed them up). WLT is Hivelord on the Jackal, Relic is either Crouchling on Magus or Bane on Kellermorph. 1cp for dermic/mortals on Exocrine. This list can be set up to spend more cp than it has, so be mindful of your options and which will generate best returns. Sadly no way to get a ap buff on stubners... |
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Post by 1ofmany on Aug 19, 2020 7:37:15 GMT
Art of War 40k released a terrain vid which shows base to base for checking if the terrain feature is in effect. True line of site is for checking visibility afterwards. www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhTZv8YuqC4From the aow40k twitch chat: Hi, a question on your new terrain vid. When checking for Obscuring, do you really check base to base? Because I've heard from most that it's any part of the model and base to base only applies to Dense. NeilKerr : b2b for range and checking if terrain effects apply. Model for visibility. As Nick said. Neil is apparently the head ITC judge and they trust his judgment, they said. So any part of the model (like tip of the wing) as we've been saying. Well, no. First you check to see if the Obscured terrain is in effect, as in you draw a line from base to base to see if any part is not behind the terrain piece. If all of the base is behind the Obscured terrain the model is hidden and the wings sticking out don't matter. If you can draw a thin line to the base then you check visibility, as in wing tips etc.
Not sure if I've seen any top players make that statement.
Art of War is Nanavati, Siegler, Lennon etc. some of the best players in the world. Siegler is currently the best competitive player in the world right now, winning LVO, Nova, Warzone: Atlanta and more last year, taking first in the ITC.
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Post by N.I.B. on Aug 19, 2020 8:24:21 GMT
So any part of the model (like tip of the wing) as we've been saying. Well, no. First you check to see if the Obscured terrain is in effect, as in you draw a line from base to base to see if any part is not behind the terrain piece. That's not what the rule is saying.  There's no reference to 'base' in the rule, only 'model'. Not the first time Nanavati get things wrong. |
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Post by wormlord666 on Aug 19, 2020 9:42:22 GMT
Try as follows: GSC Batt Jackal(HC), Primus(BC), Magus(RC) 1 x 10 Acolytes with 4 Saws (BC) (with Truck) ?? x 5 Acolytes as chaff (whichever) Kellermorph (HC) 9 Ridgerunners (HC) Kronos Patrol Neuro 2 x 3 Rippers 1 x 6 HG 1-2 x Exocrenes (and maybe pods) RC Magus makes HG adept vehicle hunters with the spell to -1ap. You can then focus the Exocrenes on the elites instead. Kellermorph sets up Ridgerunners to slaughter slightly tougher infantry with another +1 to hit from Chilling Efficiency, and in desperate times can even do so for vehicles. BC Acolytes create a risk zone for people to charge with their elites, putting them in the transport stops them getting wiped out for free, transport can ignore ap-1 and 2 and has 6+++. Plus the transport can guarantee explodes. Primus + Magus supports this unit to make their suicide charge extremely potent. 1 HG instead of 2 in order to maintain size and space to hide, and allows Exocrenes which are pt for pt best shooting in Nids codex now (always were at optimum, but double whammy when moving made them a trap until strategem fixed them up). WLT is Hivelord on the Jackal, Relic is either Crouchling on Magus or Bane on Kellermorph. 1cp for dermic/mortals on Exocrine. This list can be set up to spend more cp than it has, so be mindful of your options and which will generate best returns. Sadly no way to get a ap buff on stubners... Thank you. This is a really interesting list. I like having the options to different opponents that this list gives compared to my first crude shooty list. I agre on exocrines, they are amazing. My first list had an attemot to make the three characters the most expensive models so I could use that seconadry, but I think that is a darling I need to kill. I will try your ideas. |
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Post by wormlord666 on Aug 19, 2020 10:25:52 GMT
Inspired by Kazetande I adjusted the Forces of the Hivemind list ti this:
Magus (RC)
Jackal, Kellermorph and ridgerunners Hivecult
Rest is bladed cog
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [77 PL, 1,363pts, 11CP] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Cult Creed: None (Mixed Detachment)
Detachment CP
+ HQ +
Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 75pts]: Warlord, Warlord Trait: Hivelord
Magus [5 PL, 100pts, -1CP]: Familiar, Power: Might From Beyond, Power: Mind Control, Power: Unescapable Decay, Stratagem: The Cult's Psyche, The Crouchling
Primus [4 PL, 85pts]: Bonesword
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 48pts]
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid: 5x Autopistol, 5x Blasting Charges, 5x Cultist Knife, 5x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 130pts]: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid: 5x Autopistol, 5x Blasting Charges, 5x Cultist Knife, 5x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
+ Elites +
Kelermorph [3 PL, 80pts]
+ Fast Attack +
Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
+ Dedicated Transport +
Goliath Truck [4 PL, 95pts]: Cache of Demolition Charges, Heavy Stubber, Twin Autocannon
++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Tyranids) [32 PL, 637pts, -3CP] ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment CP [-2CP]
+ Stratagems +
Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Neurothrope [4 PL, 95pts]: Power: Symbiostorm
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]
. 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]
. 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
+ Elites +
Hive Guard [13 PL, 300pts]
. 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon
+ Heavy Support +
Exocrine [11 PL, 170pts]
. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
++ Total: [109 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
I will try it tomorrow. The risk I see is that it tries to do a lot of different things, see if it can manage to do any of them good enough. It is also cp dependant. I do think this list can work but I need to play with caution and focused on the mission.
My question is if the kelermorph is worth it.
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Post by 1ofmany on Aug 19, 2020 10:45:49 GMT
Well, no. First you check to see if the Obscured terrain is in effect, as in you draw a line from base to base to see if any part is not behind the terrain piece. That's not what the rule is saying. There's no reference to 'base' in the rule, only 'model'. Not the first time Nanavati get things wrong. In this case it isn't only Nanavati though. The head judge of WTC rules it that way so I'm guessing that's how it will be played in the World Team Championship. I've only played it with line of sight but when people of this stature rule it otherwise of course I'm going to second guess myself.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 19, 2020 12:00:28 GMT
Kellermorph is decent this edition due to Marines 2W profile. He's there as a bit of extra damage or facilitator to the RRs - in best case scenario he kills like 3 Primaris Intercessors I think. (12hits, 6W, 3 failed saves) unless you shoot twice. Very good for helping Ridgerunner stunners finish off things, or setting up for them in the first place, or killing weaker buff characters, and plonking into the backfield to shoot off intercessors net you Line breaker too.
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