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Post by kazetanade on Jan 16, 2020 16:16:16 GMT
In chapter approve, there's a good mix of durability and damage that needs to come out - a lot of it is mid field fighty too, based on some test games I got (my next event is based on CA2019) . Jorm is immediately out for 2 reasons: speed and mobility to get to and contest objectives in the middle. Ignore Cover is a real thing we expect to see from 3 of the top competitive armies (SM-IF/assault cent based melee, Tau, Eldar). If your goal is to stick, no trait is better than Leviathan. I disagree on jorm being bad for CA missions. My meta mostly plays CA missions and I've played jorm and had a good record with it. You have to think of it like a slow advance up the board and stick around for most of the game to out score your opponent. Jorm is not bad per se for CA missions (but the ones I played were really, really, really fighty in the middle and in enemy deployments), but it is bad for making it to objectives early on, AND because of prevalence of Ignore Cover in any event you might atttend. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 16, 2020 16:29:06 GMT
Getting to an objective 1 turn earlier gives you leeway on how quick you have to survive to outscore though. So it's definitely useful, esp when you consider ignores cover/getting cover/melee. While I agree, new jorm psychic ability means more heavy hitting units if youre doing shooting. For example 30 devilgants rerolling failed hits on turn 2 is pretty mean. Jormy atleast provides an extra turn of hitting hard. Specially when youre doing something like bringing in 2 units of warriors with vc's It can only be used on a unit coming in on that turn, so it's 1 turn of extra painful hurty shjooting, then nada. It's a nice little tool in the bag, IF you have a list that was already utilising Jorm. If I can be honest, I prefer Alex' list over Sneggy's, for ease of use. Sneggy's list is like a dream for me since it uses what I like best about Cult, but today it's not easy to make those saws do work, since it's not like in the Knight meta where power was consolidated into a few easy to focus targets. With Transhuman Physio, a Saws team going into Centurions gets 5x2(3) = 10(15)A, 2+ rr1s for 10(15) Hit, 5(7) wounds,1 save, 2dead / half squad (trading about equal), and the only way to mitigate this is pretty much exploding Attacks (which BC has and might work out enough? 10(15) = 14(21) so not dead, but pretty badly maimed, assuming we managed to survive or negate overwatch). Alex' list might have some issues with who goes first, but it's conceptually a tight list since you pair good tough shooting with goo cheap statblocks, and nothing on the table is unthreatening. That's our old MTO in a nutshell and is a lot easier to use in a straight up stat fight. |
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Post by mule on Jan 16, 2020 17:30:23 GMT
I dont have much faith in sneggys list in itc tbh.
I love cult but cult melee isnt in a great place in the meta atm. We can't hostage marines. Things like turn bolt weapons into pistols can mean not only do something like cents clear our unit in the shooting phase but then they can still charge something else if in range.
I agree I like sneggys list more because it's more fluffy and thematic but as far as ease of use I think Alex's list or just having shooty threats instead of swarmy/gs sling. Like 3 exocrine for example and some warriors could also make a decent list.
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Post by sneggy on Jan 17, 2020 8:45:59 GMT
Right lets weigh in on some chatter maybe I can answer a few questions people have on what it does.
Firstly its definitely Leviathan, for better or worse, not a typo. You need onslaught to make the warriors game relevant by exerting board presence, so you can't take Symbiostorm. The lists a moving castle so you can't benefit from re-roll 1's for kronos either so Kronos is largely irrelevant here. I rate Leviathan over Jorm because they have statistically similar buffs but doctrines and high ap are currently the meta so I'll take the one they can't affect.
Its also as some have noted very much an ETC list not an ITC list. For ITC this list bleeds most of the secondaries and is horrible at holding more when going second and killing more generally cos theres so much chaff.
What it does is threaten the whole board whilst creating a lot of no mans land your opponent cant occupy on fear of hive guard and rock saw bomb. Its extremely good at scoring maelstrom with the etc style hand selection.
I played:
Mike porter (etc world champion last year) with iron hands on planet bowling ball. Dice hated me, terrain hated me, failed two rock saw charges including +2 and perfect ambush. Got tabled and lost 2:18
Derek (team Scotland etc) with deathwatch, guard and trip calladius. An off meta list but a hard counter to my list. Bullied the deathwatch, hid from calladius and then got wraps off and picked up calladius when they came out to get closer to characters searching for kills, brought them into hive guard range and death. Game annoyingly ended turn 5 when he only had a wounded trajann vs most of my army. gauranteed 20:0 if turn 6 happens. I win 17:3
Nathan (etc world champion last year) with possessed bomb. We played two mega cagey turns where I picked up screens and he took board presence. Turn three he left an opening for a movement phase flamer bomb and both rock saw units into the possessed. I made both charges he shook my hand. 20:0 to be fair to nathan he was testing this list and had only played 3 games with it prior to this one. We were both running on very little sleep and last game of the day so both had a mistake in us. My reps with my faction let me fly mostly on autopilot whilst he had to do a lot more thinking and I believe its what swung this game.
Innes Wilson (team scotland etc, you may have seen him on stream at LGT beating nanavatis GSC) with blood angels. I got bottom of turn in a drop off. Screened him and hive guard covered all the objectives with firepower. he drops and kills chaff. I drop and kill sanguinary guard. Very very good game this one. He gets tabled turn 5 and again game ends turn 5 denying me max points 18:2
Matt Robertson (etc world champions last year) blood angels and fists thunderfire spearhead. I get top of turn this time. take over the board with metabolic termagants. Kill all his eliminators, he retaliates by taking back midfield with death company and takes the bait of a drop I left him for sanguinary guard into warriors. They have ap-2 axes though and ping off. the broodlord, patriarchs and warriors pick them up whilst the flamer bomb and hive guard remove the death company. The bladed cog detachment continues its theme of whiffing horribly by failing to kill a single thunderfire. At this stage I have the board and he has one sang guard unit left along with a bunch of characters. The characters come out to clear a spot for a turn 3 drop and I retaliate by picking them up with rocksaws. leaving screened out board again. The sang guard drop in his back corner and fail a 3d6 charge. Thats the final nail in the coffin and he concedes. If they make that charge we are playing hive guard, all my characters and half the warriors vs 8 sanguinary guard with no cp to buff them. Its still my win but he can potentially steal some points. As it is ends 20:0
Got to say as well aside from terrain issues first couple of games it was a great event and my opponents were amazing. Innes game had a potential game of the season for me in terms of enjoyment and fantastic sportsmanship all round in every game.
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Post by hiveoverall on Jan 17, 2020 11:19:25 GMT
Thanks Sneggy, great write up ! I now understand how great for ETC missions this list really is. Also I see why kronos is inferior to leviathan (no way to get catalyst without lowering the power of the gen cult drops, so you need that 6+++, and you need onslaught to move the hive guards or to advance the warriors and still be able to hit something, as well as being able to advance and then charge turn 2), and why you have no other choice but to take a prime as second HQ (for just one unit of warriors it may seem an odd choice, to me it did anyway).
Also what 18 maelstrom cards did you pick, if you don't mind me asking ?
Finally, will you be playing with team Scotland this year ? |
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Post by 1b2a on Jan 17, 2020 12:16:12 GMT
You got tabled. My meta is basically that. I was wondering a couple of your choices but I guess they use fancy stuff instead of dumb brick armies
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Post by sneggy on Jan 17, 2020 12:37:43 GMT
Thanks Sneggy, great write up ! I now understand how great for ETC missions this list really is. Also I see why kronos is inferior to leviathan (no way to get catalyst without lowering the power of the gen cult drops, so you need that 6+++, and you need onslaught to move the hive guards or to advance the warriors and still be able to hit something, as well as being able to advance and then charge turn 2), and why you have no other choice but to take a prime as second HQ (for just one unit of warriors it may seem an odd choice, to me it did anyway).
Also what 18 maelstrom cards did you pick, if you don't mind me asking ?
Finally, will you be playing with team Scotland this year ? You can actually pick more than 18 cards and for this event it was pick during the pregame phase each round. So I took secure 1-6, then secure 1-6 again. defend 5-6 (last two objectives placed so you can control both by zoning the board), supremacy, firepower, blood and guts, no prisoners, master the warp, then would add in others based on gameplay. Quite often took behind enemy lines, would sometimes assassinate/scour the skies etc base don opponents army. I'm English despite the scottish surname. So I have applied for Team England for the first time this year. Bit tricky getting selected for the reigning champions. |
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Post by hiveoverall on Jan 17, 2020 13:24:42 GMT
Thanks Sneggy, great write up ! I now understand how great for ETC missions this list really is. Also I see why kronos is inferior to leviathan (no way to get catalyst without lowering the power of the gen cult drops, so you need that 6+++, and you need onslaught to move the hive guards or to advance the warriors and still be able to hit something, as well as being able to advance and then charge turn 2), and why you have no other choice but to take a prime as second HQ (for just one unit of warriors it may seem an odd choice, to me it did anyway).
Also what 18 maelstrom cards did you pick, if you don't mind me asking ?
Finally, will you be playing with team Scotland this year ? You can actually pick more than 18 cards and for this event it was pick during the pregame phase each round. So I took secure 1-6, then secure 1-6 again. defend 5-6 (last two objectives placed so you can control both by zoning the board), supremacy, firepower, blood and guts, no prisoners, master the warp, then would add in others based on gameplay. Quite often took behind enemy lines, would sometimes assassinate/scour the skies etc base don opponents army. I'm English despite the scottish surname. So I have applied for Team England for the first time this year. Bit tricky getting selected for the reigning champions. So go "mercenary" for another country. Pretty sure another team woul d be happy to have you for nids/GSC, or pure GSC (why not ?). I personally am thinking about doing this (playing orks if need be), as I personally know a few Frenchmen who have done so and enjoyed the experience quit a lot (for Switzerland or even Croatia, other countries I hve forgotten about). In France we organise qualifiers but the same team wins these every year (lets not get into how they do that though, though these guys are indeed very good players) so you see the same names every year, thus many if the best french players have to go merc hah hah.
Also, thanks for your answers ! I more or less take these same cards, whether playing Nids/GSC or orks regardless
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Post by sneggy on Jan 17, 2020 14:52:08 GMT
You can actually pick more than 18 cards and for this event it was pick during the pregame phase each round. So I took secure 1-6, then secure 1-6 again. defend 5-6 (last two objectives placed so you can control both by zoning the board), supremacy, firepower, blood and guts, no prisoners, master the warp, then would add in others based on gameplay. Quite often took behind enemy lines, would sometimes assassinate/scour the skies etc base don opponents army. I'm English despite the scottish surname. So I have applied for Team England for the first time this year. Bit tricky getting selected for the reigning champions. So go "mercenary" for another country. Pretty sure another team woul d be happy to have you for nids/GSC, or pure GSC (why not ?). I personally am thinking about doing this (playing orks if need be), as I personally know a few Frenchmen who have done so and enjoyed the experience quit a lot (for Switzerland or even Croatia, other countries I hve forgotten about). In France we organise qualifiers but the same team wins these every year (lets not get into how they do that though, though these guys are indeed very good players) so you see the same names every year, thus many if the best french players have to go merc hah hah.
Also, thanks for your answers ! I more or less take these same cards, whether playing Nids/GSC or orks regardless
Its my first ever year applying for England, before then I've not bothered with the ETC. I'm sort of in the position where I'm in contention for selection for England though not a guaranteed pick by any means. I'd rather play for my home nation if I can. If I don't get picked I'm not super upset at not attending ETC. I may look at Merc'ing in the future but not this time round. |
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Post by purestrain on Jan 17, 2020 16:36:27 GMT
You got tabled. My meta is basically that. I was wondering a couple of your choices but I guess they use fancy stuff instead of dumb brick armies So what are you playing against where jorm gives you better survival? Because ignore cover is quite often a thing. |
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 17, 2020 18:29:55 GMT
Great job, stud.
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Post by 1b2a on Jan 18, 2020 3:59:52 GMT
You got tabled. My meta is basically that. I was wondering a couple of your choices but I guess they use fancy stuff instead of dumb brick armies So what are you playing against where jorm gives you better survival? Because ignore cover is quite often a thing. I was referring to tabling to sm castle like iron hands. Idk why I didn’t finish explaining there . In my meta that would be like 3 tabling instead. I agree that jorm isn’t that great fwiw though. Centurions and aggressors seee to that |
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Post by gorsameth on Jan 18, 2020 13:04:21 GMT
Right lets weigh in on some chatter maybe I can answer a few questions people have on what it does. Firstly its definitely Leviathan, for better or worse, not a typo. You need onslaught to make the warriors game relevant by exerting board presence, so you can't take Symbiostorm. The lists a moving castle so you can't benefit from re-roll 1's for kronos either so Kronos is largely irrelevant here. I rate Leviathan over Jorm because they have statistically similar buffs but doctrines and high ap are currently the meta so I'll take the one they can't affect. Its also as some have noted very much an ETC list not an ITC list. For ITC this list bleeds most of the secondaries and is horrible at holding more when going second and killing more generally cos theres so much chaff. What it does is threaten the whole board whilst creating a lot of no mans land your opponent cant occupy on fear of hive guard and rock saw bomb. Its extremely good at scoring maelstrom with the etc style hand selection. I played: Mike porter (etc world champion last year) with iron hands on planet bowling ball. Dice hated me, terrain hated me, failed two rock saw charges including +2 and perfect ambush. Got tabled and lost 2:18 Derek (team Scotland etc) with deathwatch, guard and trip calladius. An off meta list but a hard counter to my list. Bullied the deathwatch, hid from calladius and then got wraps off and picked up calladius when they came out to get closer to characters searching for kills, brought them into hive guard range and death. Game annoyingly ended turn 5 when he only had a wounded trajann vs most of my army. gauranteed 20:0 if turn 6 happens. I win 17:3 Nathan (etc world champion last year) with possessed bomb. We played two mega cagey turns where I picked up screens and he took board presence. Turn three he left an opening for a movement phase flamer bomb and both rock saw units into the possessed. I made both charges he shook my hand. 20:0 to be fair to nathan he was testing this list and had only played 3 games with it prior to this one. We were both running on very little sleep and last game of the day so both had a mistake in us. My reps with my faction let me fly mostly on autopilot whilst he had to do a lot more thinking and I believe its what swung this game. Innes Wilson (team scotland etc, you may have seen him on stream at LGT beating nanavatis GSC) with blood angels. I got bottom of turn in a drop off. Screened him and hive guard covered all the objectives with firepower. he drops and kills chaff. I drop and kill sanguinary guard. Very very good game this one. He gets tabled turn 5 and again game ends turn 5 denying me max points 18:2 Matt Robertson (etc world champions last year) blood angels and fists thunderfire spearhead. I get top of turn this time. take over the board with metabolic termagants. Kill all his eliminators, he retaliates by taking back midfield with death company and takes the bait of a drop I left him for sanguinary guard into warriors. They have ap-2 axes though and ping off. the broodlord, patriarchs and warriors pick them up whilst the flamer bomb and hive guard remove the death company. The bladed cog detachment continues its theme of whiffing horribly by failing to kill a single thunderfire. At this stage I have the board and he has one sang guard unit left along with a bunch of characters. The characters come out to clear a spot for a turn 3 drop and I retaliate by picking them up with rocksaws. leaving screened out board again. The sang guard drop in his back corner and fail a 3d6 charge. Thats the final nail in the coffin and he concedes. If they make that charge we are playing hive guard, all my characters and half the warriors vs 8 sanguinary guard with no cp to buff them. Its still my win but he can potentially steal some points. As it is ends 20:0 Got to say as well aside from terrain issues first couple of games it was a great event and my opponents were amazing. Innes game had a potential game of the season for me in terms of enjoyment and fantastic sportsmanship all round in every game. Has the BC detachment been worth it for you with this kind of list? I've been having terrible luck with them myself but kept them around because I mainly play pure GSC and some shooting is handy but with a list like this I might consider dropping them for something else. Have you have about that and if so, with what? |
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Post by sneggy on Jan 20, 2020 10:04:27 GMT
I was playing pure GSC before this event so was running more neophytes. With the hive guard and warrior shooting I'm not convinced their firepowers needed but the board control is lovely. I also want a third battalion and a patriarch/broodlord for hero hammering so its really not a ton of extra points over brood brothers to go neophytes and mining lasers anyway.
Theres maybe options there, I need to do more playtesting with this kind of list. I'm on Chaos for LVO though, that terrain set up and the abundance of marines killed any GSC build being worth it for me.
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Post by mule on Jan 22, 2020 6:16:50 GMT
I was playing pure GSC before this event so was running more neophytes. With the hive guard and warrior shooting I'm not convinced their firepowers needed but the board control is lovely. I also want a third battalion and a patriarch/broodlord for hero hammering so its really not a ton of extra points over brood brothers to go neophytes and mining lasers anyway. Theres maybe options there, I need to do more playtesting with this kind of list. I'm on Chaos for LVO though, that terrain set up and the abundance of marines killed any GSC build being worth it for me. Not sure if you've been using this but telepathing summoning lets you summon a unit in so we get around auspex and deep strike denial that way, if we summon in a sanctus with the relic he can't get auspexed so that sets up the rest of your charges on a unit like cents or something. It also doesn't matter about the deepstrike denial because they all say "from reserves" and this isn't coming from reserves. So you can summon in some acolytes you roll 3d6 a full unit of 20 acolytes are 11 power level, and 15 is just 9 powerlevel, so you just have to meet or beat it. So even bringing in something threatening is nice. Then you can obviously deepstrike the characters behind it without auspex to go off because they can't target since the other unit is closer. |
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