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Post by No One on Jan 16, 2020 1:25:39 GMT
Ask Iron hands how dinky it is. Every time a 2 or 3 wound model survives instead of dying because of a 6+++ and over the course of a game it will happen a few times that is HUGE. That unit now has 1 model with 1 of 3 wounds left that operates at FULL capacity, no degrading damage chart for warriors. It helps keep hive guard alive as well, you can only catalyst 1 thing. most of my new lists with warriors are leviathan over even kronos unless you are taking exocrines then its a gimmie. Or if you taking multiple detachments (which he can't do since he has 2 GSC ones) then levy warriors and kronos hive guard but if you have both in the same detachment I would go levy all the way. You have, yet again, missed my point. I'm not saying 6+++ is bad or never helpful. I'm saying, in comparison to -1 dam, -1 to hit, or 3+ instead of 5+ vs Tau (let alone all of those and -1 S), it is an incredibly minor benefit. And drawing any conclusions about the tankiness of the unit from that scenario, and from that saying the Leviathan is the pick, is not helpful. Those drop it from 2 warriors to a bit over 1 wound total. 6+++ drops it from 4 wounds to a bit over 3 (i.e. still a warrior) with -1 dam. Without -1 dam? Even overkill by only 1 wound, you've got ~13% of making the required 2 saves to matter. Which is admittedly better than I thought, but still not great. Almost 30% to not save a single warrior into net D4. For hive guard, that's even worse, since they can't turn D2 (or dam D3) into D1. And with only 6 models in the unit, it's over 40% to not save any. You lose out on symbiostorm for the ability to give your hiveguard a ignore ap 6+++ which means they're pretty much relevant the whole game, just like it's just as smart to take them as jormy. I won't 100% say why he did it but my assumption is that he needs the tyranid units to stick on the board because the cult stuff will not, and that is just fact. So making the hiveguard and the warriors as durible as possible whilst also ruining multi wound shooting is the most likely reason why he took leviathan over jormy or kronos. It doesn't. Against basically everything but D3 (and maybe Dam D3/Dam D6) net, it's ~the same or worse than against D1. Which saves a hive guard. Keeping a single hive guard alive for probably a single turn longer is not making them relevant the entire game, unless they'd be relevant as Kronos as well. Which being Kronos helps arguably more: having more output to clear screens early and then enable Cult to kill important things and take heat off the hive guard can let them stay unmolested the entire game. So good on the warriors, where they've got strat, more bodies to make multi-damage saves more likely, as well as just more likely to be taking firepower. But hive guard still want to be Kronos: they probably won't even be getting Levi buff the entire game, since that's 6" to Synapse and everything else doesn't want to be babystitting on top of them. |
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Post by mule on Jan 16, 2020 1:32:53 GMT
Ask Iron hands how dinky it is. Every time a 2 or 3 wound model survives instead of dying because of a 6+++ and over the course of a game it will happen a few times that is HUGE. That unit now has 1 model with 1 of 3 wounds left that operates at FULL capacity, no degrading damage chart for warriors. It helps keep hive guard alive as well, you can only catalyst 1 thing. most of my new lists with warriors are leviathan over even kronos unless you are taking exocrines then its a gimmie. Or if you taking multiple detachments (which he can't do since he has 2 GSC ones) then levy warriors and kronos hive guard but if you have both in the same detachment I would go levy all the way. You have, yet again, missed my point. I'm not saying 6+++ is bad or never helpful. I'm saying, in comparison to -1 dam, -1 to hit, or 3+ instead of 5+ vs Tau (let alone all of those and -1 S), it is an incredibly minor benefit. And drawing any conclusions about the tankiness of the unit from that scenario, and from that saying the Leviathan is the pick, is not helpful. Those drop it from 2 warriors to a bit over 1 wound total. 6+++ drops it from 4 wounds to a bit over 3 (i.e. still a warrior) with -1 dam. Without -1 dam? Even overkill by only 1 wound, you've got ~13% of making the required 2 saves to matter. Which is admittedly better than I thought, but still not great. Almost 30% to not save a single warrior into net D4. For hive guard, that's even worse, since they can't turn D2 (or dam D3) into D1. And with only 6 models in the unit, it's over 40% to not save any. You lose out on symbiostorm for the ability to give your hiveguard a ignore ap 6+++ which means they're pretty much relevant the whole game, just like it's just as smart to take them as jormy. I won't 100% say why he did it but my assumption is that he needs the tyranid units to stick on the board because the cult stuff will not, and that is just fact. So making the hiveguard and the warriors as durible as possible whilst also ruining multi wound shooting is the most likely reason why he took leviathan over jormy or kronos. It doesn't. Against basically everything but D3 (and maybe Dam D3/Dam D6) net, it's ~the same or worse than against D1. Which saves a hive guard. Keeping a single hive guard alive for probably a single turn longer is not making them relevant the entire game, unless they'd be relevant as Kronos as well. Which being Kronos helps arguably more: having more output to clear screens early and then enable Cult to kill important things and take heat off the hive guard can let them stay unmolested the entire game. So good on the warriors, where they've got strat, more bodies to make multi-damage saves more likely, as well as just more likely to be taking firepower. But hive guard still want to be Kronos: they probably won't even be getting Levi buff the entire game, since that's 6" to Synapse and everything else doesn't want to be babystitting on top of them. There's a lot of hoops they have to jump through to get to your hiveguard and deal damage to them. Turn 1 they'll likely be within 6" range so any LOS ignoring weapons instantly get 16% less throughput. Pair that with - ap adaption or +save depending on who you're going up against is important. Like I said, the tyranid models need to stay on the board and be relevant. If you go jormy they're argueably tankier and you get a better psychic power with them however you can't advance so things like TFC can pin you down, atleast as levy you get an extra 2-3 inches a turn via advance which is enough to get to the middle of the board, which is where you need them. The warriors sit there and soak fire and pull units closer to them which then opens up holes for the cult to drop in and start trading effeciently. The whole levi thing is just reducing damage period whilst not giving up utility. Symbiostorm is nice but obviously in his meta it isn't needed, what is needed is his army not getting leafblowered off the table and levi definitely helps to do that against an IH list. |
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Post by No One on Jan 16, 2020 1:43:53 GMT
There's a lot of hoops they have to jump through to get to your hiveguard and deal damage to them. Turn 1 they'll likely be within 6" range so any LOS ignoring weapons instantly get 16% less throughput. Pair that with - ap adaption or +save depending on who you're going up against is important. Like I said, the tyranid models need to stay on the board and be relevant. If you go jormy they're argueably tankier and you get a better psychic power with them however you can't advance so things like TFC can pin you down, atleast as levy you get an extra 2-3 inches a turn via advance which is enough to get to the middle of the board, which is where you need them. The warriors sit there and soak fire and pull units closer to them which then opens up holes for the cult to drop in and start trading effeciently. The whole levi thing is just reducing damage period whilst not giving up utility. Symbiostorm is nice but obviously in his meta it isn't needed, what is needed is his army not getting leafblowered off the table and levi definitely helps to do that against an IH list. If you're going to get obliterated by IH, you'll still get basically obliterated as Levi. That's how a 6+++ works: it does a bit, but not much. If they have the firepower to overkill, it does nothing at all (with warrior's dam reduction, I doubt this, but it is sort of the case for HG). It works for warriors, I haven't disputed this (though it doesn't make them suddenly great into multi-damage stuff that gets through dam reduction strat, just not as bad as they'd otherwise be). But HG? Let's say they have 3 IH TFC. That kills a bit over 1 HG in cover. Lets say that Levi saves it (not unreasonable, but doesn't on average): 5 Kronos HG get 7.8 hits. 6 Levi HG get 8 hits. That's without Symbiostorm. Kronos gives so much extra consistency and output that it's not worth giving up for HG just for those handful of match ups where there's enough ignore LoS chip to matter. And against the match ups where you can't keep out of LoS (either because mobility, or because terrain sucks), it doesn't do enough to meaningfully save the squad. 1-2 HG does not a high impact unit make. |
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Post by zimko on Jan 16, 2020 2:44:19 GMT
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Post by mule on Jan 16, 2020 2:56:32 GMT
There's a lot of hoops they have to jump through to get to your hiveguard and deal damage to them. Turn 1 they'll likely be within 6" range so any LOS ignoring weapons instantly get 16% less throughput. Pair that with - ap adaption or +save depending on who you're going up against is important. Like I said, the tyranid models need to stay on the board and be relevant. If you go jormy they're argueably tankier and you get a better psychic power with them however you can't advance so things like TFC can pin you down, atleast as levy you get an extra 2-3 inches a turn via advance which is enough to get to the middle of the board, which is where you need them. The warriors sit there and soak fire and pull units closer to them which then opens up holes for the cult to drop in and start trading effeciently. The whole levi thing is just reducing damage period whilst not giving up utility. Symbiostorm is nice but obviously in his meta it isn't needed, what is needed is his army not getting leafblowered off the table and levi definitely helps to do that against an IH list. If you're going to get obliterated by IH, you'll still get basically obliterated as Levi. That's how a 6+++ works: it does a bit, but not much. If they have the firepower to overkill, it does nothing at all (with warrior's dam reduction, I doubt this, but it is sort of the case for HG). It works for warriors, I haven't disputed this (though it doesn't make them suddenly great into multi-damage stuff that gets through dam reduction strat, just not as bad as they'd otherwise be). But HG? Let's say they have 3 IH TFC. That kills a bit over 1 HG in cover. Lets say that Levi saves it (not unreasonable, but doesn't on average): 5 Kronos HG get 7.8 hits. 6 Levi HG get 8 hits. That's without Symbiostorm. Kronos gives so much extra consistency and output that it's not worth giving up for HG just for those handful of match ups where there's enough ignore LoS chip to matter. And against the match ups where you can't keep out of LoS (either because mobility, or because terrain sucks), it doesn't do enough to meaningfully save the squad. 1-2 HG does not a high impact unit make. See but you need LOS on HG to remove them from the board unless they're using like 3x whirlwinds. Because TFC aren't going to do the job with ignore ap, let alone 6+++ I already said that the point is to keep the warriors on the board, and leviathan does a worse job than jormy but what it does do is let them be mobile. HG are already pretty protected by most things because of hiding out of line of sight. but 6+++ is still icing on the cake, if they're able to shoot your hiveguard with 3+ damage guns you've already (please do not swear) up. |
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Post by wormlord666 on Jan 16, 2020 6:40:02 GMT
I believe this is important. I play both ITC-missions and ETC-style and its obvious that they reward different lists. ITC reward list with a few strong units that are efficient. In etc many small units can be one way to go since mobility and boardcontrol is important. I hope ITC changed there missions in some way because the marine dominance is partly a result of them fitting the missions very well. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 16, 2020 11:03:38 GMT
In chapter approve, there's a good mix of durability and damage that needs to come out - a lot of it is mid field fighty too, based on some test games I got (my next event is based on CA2019) .
Jorm is immediately out for 2 reasons: speed and mobility to get to and contest objectives in the middle. Ignore Cover is a real thing we expect to see from 3 of the top competitive armies (SM-IF/assault cent based melee, Tau, Eldar). If your goal is to stick, no trait is better than Leviathan.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jan 16, 2020 12:13:17 GMT
In chapter approve, there's a good mix of durability and damage that needs to come out - a lot of it is mid field fighty too, based on some test games I got (my next event is based on CA2019) . Jorm is immediately out for 2 reasons: speed and mobility to get to and contest objectives in the middle. Ignore Cover is a real thing we expect to see from 3 of the top competitive armies (SM-IF/assault cent based melee, Tau, Eldar). If your goal is to stick, no trait is better than Leviathan. I disagree on jorm being bad for CA missions. My meta mostly plays CA missions and I've played jorm and had a good record with it. You have to think of it like a slow advance up the board and stick around for most of the game to out score your opponent. |
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Post by No One on Jan 16, 2020 12:15:45 GMT
Getting to an objective 1 turn earlier gives you leeway on how quick you have to survive to outscore though. So it's definitely useful, esp when you consider ignores cover/getting cover/melee.
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Post by hiveoverall on Jan 16, 2020 12:43:48 GMT
Something very useful when you want your midfield units to survive is to shoot enemy units that threaten them. But ok to each his own. I have played my fair share of leviathan warriors long before PA so I get it. Especially if you roll hot on those 6s. Perhaps it is not so appealing to me specifically because I have been doing it for so long now (and I currently want to shoot stuff with kronos hah hah, even though on average you just get two extra VC hits assuming no -1 to hit and a bunch of extra deathspitter hits that won't do that much on anything else than squishy targets like orks or perhaps scouts - things get better with SMA strat but that is bes kept for the HG more often than not).
Actually the more I think about it, the more I think bare bones "double scy tal" or "scy tal par of BS" leviathan warriors could just be sent running midfield and let other units do the actual damage. At leas for the kind of mission pack CA2019 presents
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jan 16, 2020 13:15:23 GMT
The patriarch has to be the warlord if your warlord is from GSC. However, his warlord is from nids, so no. Literally cant find the patriarch rule. Where is it? Page 108 of the GSC codex matched play rules: If your army includes any patriarchs, no other GSC or brood brothers characters can be your warlord. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jan 16, 2020 13:20:59 GMT
Getting to an objective 1 turn earlier gives you leeway on how quick you have to survive to outscore though. So it's definitely useful, esp when you consider ignores cover/getting cover/melee. Generally in eternal war, getting to one or two objectives turn 1 isn't an issue for me with jorm; however, my opponent is usually getting to two or a higher value objective. With the new maelstrom missions, you can select which objectives you want to hold/defend, so mobility is less of an issue. My strategy was to use slow pressure up the board combined with strong shooting and durable screens. For eternal war, I would start to catch up turn 3 and would be in the lead or close turn 4. |
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Post by garg on Jan 16, 2020 13:42:04 GMT
In chapter approve, there's a good mix of durability and damage that needs to come out - a lot of it is mid field fighty too, based on some test games I got (my next event is based on CA2019) . Jorm is immediately out for 2 reasons: speed and mobility to get to and contest objectives in the middle. Ignore Cover is a real thing we expect to see from 3 of the top competitive armies (SM-IF/assault cent based melee, Tau, Eldar). If your goal is to stick, no trait is better than Leviathan. Ignore cover is definitely an issue and with stealthy marines abound it is pretty common. As far as mobility i find Kronos even less mobile because a) you want to stand still for rr1s b) in some situations you want the cover that isn't in a straight line in front of them. |
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Post by No One on Jan 16, 2020 13:46:51 GMT
The comparison is with Levi, not Kronos ref mobility. Because no question, Kronos isn't really mobile (I guess you can still onslaught/prime Symbiostorm with advance to get something rather than Jorms nothing? But you don't go Kronos if you want to move).
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Post by mule on Jan 16, 2020 14:56:37 GMT
Getting to an objective 1 turn earlier gives you leeway on how quick you have to survive to outscore though. So it's definitely useful, esp when you consider ignores cover/getting cover/melee. While I agree, new jorm psychic ability means more heavy hitting units if youre doing shooting. For example 30 devilgants rerolling failed hits on turn 2 is pretty mean. Jormy atleast provides an extra turn of hitting hard. Specially when youre doing something like bringing in 2 units of warriors with vc's |
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