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Post by kazetanade on Dec 11, 2019 18:26:08 GMT
Have you NEVER seen any kind of movie that deals with a squid or kraken? It keeping people from falling back is exactly what a Toxicrine should do... hell, dare I say it here? go watch any hentai and you'll get an idea. then bleach your eyes. I mean, a whips identity is to grab things and keep them from moving or pull it towards you. Dude. I'm Asian. I dont need your lectures on H genres  Have you bought a Toxicrene or seen one up close? Look at those tentacles. Those things are meant to stab, not grab. It aint got suckers on them. Now go google the Haruspex. You see how there are claws at the end of HIS tentacles in the shape of crane arms? While you're at it, maybe go read some of the lore books to get a feel of how each creature is represented. The Toxicrene featured heavily in the Shield of Baal book campaign series, being one of the main antagonists for Sisters and Blood Angels defending one of the crazy ass moons with tidal waves. That campaign mission was nutso. But if you read the lore (and I think the books have it as well), you'll notice that the Toxicrene actually kills his prey without engaging in combat with it. They die mostly to the poison spores that the Toxicrene releases, and the poison excreted along its tentacles are so potent they're more like acid and melts down armor and machinery. Its barbed tentacles were used to rend open tanks for its spores to seep in and poison crew of artillery pieces and tanks. I dont remember there even being a combat scene for the Sisters and Space Marines for the Toxicrene, never even found the foul things in the thick spore cover. Then you read and see artwork of the Haruspex, whose thing is LITERALLY GRABBING PEOPLE WITH TENTACLES AND SHOVING IT DOWN ITS MAW. We even had some funky gun in 7th ed we could shoot at specific models to rep it being pulled in by the tongue. |
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Post by nintura on Dec 11, 2019 18:43:51 GMT
Ive never once seen a whip stab someone. you can still grab with whippy tentacles though, just look at the lash whip. It also talks about toxicrenes opening up armored vehicles and dragging out it's prey, I dont think it does that by stabbing them. And how is a Haruspex going to keep an entire unit from fleeing away? and if I'm going to kill my prey with spores and poison, then my main method is to not stab them but hold them there while my poison does its work.
the haruspex is grabbing people because it swallows them whole, that's how it heals itself. Essentially it's a hive fleets generic version of the Red Terror alongside the Mawloc.
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Post by killercroc on Dec 11, 2019 19:33:10 GMT
IIRC we have a better and cheaper lascannon equivalent that can be brought on a decent platform? Last tourney I went to, all Lascannons were on Dreadnoughts. Lascannon Dreads have never been considered cheap or well priced by any meta - it's either overpriced or just fine. AM have the most cost efficient Lascannon spam in the world, you still dont see that happening. *shrug* In any army composition, it comes down to Synergy and Role. Does the Haruspex have a role in your army? Does it synergize with the rest of your army? Is there a tool that does the same role better and synergize better with your army? The problem of Haruspex is that it doesnt do anything particularly unique. With only 4A that does d3 each (assuming then 8A), and each A that kills a model(?) gets another A of anti-tank, it's trying to fulfill two roles at the same time yet being not very good at either, and its primary role of infantry killing is better served by Genestealers who are more flexible, more attacks, more survivable, etc etc etc; while its secondary role of can opener is done by a Fex much better. Other than "I like the model", there is no reason or Unique Selling Point to the Haruspex. Honestly speaking the Haruspex is our big hungry NOM NOM monster, this is the one that should get boatload of attacks and absolutely tear into stuff. What its special rules should be is that for every A that lands, it can attack with another A, choosing its weapon and target. Give it 5A base and each anti-infantry A is 3 hit rolls. The strategem should be to deny falling back, since this is the Mr Munchy with extending tongues that grab people and pull them back. The Toxicrene doesnt have its own thing other than being this huge acid melty thing that produces spores that chokes people to death and is super poisonous and venomous and whatever. Having a strategem to deny fall back is nice, but fluff wise I think its the wrong chassis. Toxicrene should have its strategem based around its identity, which should be to whip people and dissolve them. I'd give it a strategem for 2cp to 1: strengthen its mortal wound gen ability and 2: reroll hits of its tentacles and 3: do mortal wounds on 4+ or 5+ to wound. Considering its 6A only, the max could be 6 mortal wounds, with an additional aura d3 I think from his unique ability. This firmly places it as an anti-elite monster while also being pleasantly fluffy, very visceral in its image IMO. Are you referring to the Heavy Venom Cannon? If so I'd agree, the HVC is a pretty good weapon and after taking it more with Fex/Tyrant it's nice. It would be nicer to get more of them on the board though, the lack of chassis for them is a bit of a pain as there is no cheap way to field them. Even then just a few of them can cause a lot of damage. Odd to see Lascannon dreads, I thought those went out of style a while ago. Now I mostly just see Ironclads or whatever works best with a specific marine flavor. It always struck me as odd how Lascannons were never spammed in AM, maybe now that they're down another 5 points they'll show more? Doesn't help that you can barely field heavy weapon teams now due to rule of 3, that does limit them somewhat. Though also to be fair most of the AM armies you see aren't AM armies, they're mobile CP farms backed by the actual heavy hitting units. Personally I think the Haru is terrible. It looks cool but it sucks at killing tanks and killing infantry. Like you said, basically anything it can do another Fex or something can do better, which is a real shame. Yeah the +1 to hit with MCs does help but you're still probably better off elsewhere. Just Claw'd shovel tuskers backed by OOE or Stonecrushers are better at clearing units out. Haru should really get 3 attacks per not D3, that'd go a long way to helping it out. Even then... just take an Exocrine and you can do more damage at range than the Haru can. *Sad lobster noises* |
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Post by mule on Dec 11, 2019 20:41:15 GMT
Ive never once seen a whip stab someone. you can still grab with whippy tentacles though, just look at the lash whip. It also talks about toxicrenes opening up armored vehicles and dragging out it's prey, I dont think it does that by stabbing them. And how is a Haruspex going to keep an entire unit from fleeing away? and if I'm going to kill my prey with spores and poison, then my main method is to not stab them but hold them there while my poison does its work. the haruspex is grabbing people because it swallows them whole, that's how it heals itself. Essentially it's a hive fleets generic version of the Red Terror alongside the Mawloc. Theyre more like stingray tails. |
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Post by N.I.B. on Dec 11, 2019 20:46:40 GMT
The Haruspex is one of many symptoms of the apparent lack of vision with the Tyranid faction design. It feels like since the Trygon/Mawloc kit, new models have just been dropped on the rule writers table without heads-up, and given 3-4 weeks deadline for rules and stats. Nothing fits a hole. There's a lack of long term plan and design for the faction as a whole and imo obvious that the design team don't know how to balance nids, so they err on the side of caution. I remember Reece some years back saying something to the effect that it's hard to balance nids basically becauseof how many monsters we can spam in all slots. To me that sounds like a complete cop out.
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Post by killercroc on Dec 11, 2019 20:55:58 GMT
I could see that being an issue, design team making a cool new big bad bug to push to the players then the rules team going "wtf is that! We gotta make rules for something you just pulled out of thin air?" still I mean... hate to say it but if they're had rules writers for this long that still have an issue writing rules well... it's called firing incompetent workers and hiring competent ones. I know, it's a radical idea. I'm sure the issue of Tyranid monster rules might have been an issue at one point but that's not the case now, they're the exact same as vehicles and GW doesn't seem to have any issue with making vehicles good, so what gives with the monsters? But that's tied into the issue with tanks and mosnters. Tank loses BS but that cannon has the same S and RoF when weakened, but monsters lose WS, S and A so they're in a way worse than tanks.
Make AM/SM heavy weapons lose 1 S and 1 shot every bracket and see how long that lasts.
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Post by nintura on Dec 11, 2019 21:01:34 GMT
I could see that being an issue, design team making a cool new big bad bug to push to the players then the rules team going "wtf is that! We gotta make rules for something you just pulled out of thin air?" still I mean... hate to say it but if they're had rules writers for this long that still have an issue writing rules well... it's called firing incompetent workers and hiring competent ones. I know, it's a radical idea. I'm sure the issue of Tyranid monster rules might have been an issue at one point but that's not the case now, they're the exact same as vehicles and GW doesn't seem to have any issue with making vehicles good, so what gives with the monsters? But that's tied into the issue with tanks and mosnters. Tank loses BS but that cannon has the same S and RoF when weakened, but monsters lose WS, S and A so they're in a way worse than tanks. Make AM/SM heavy weapons lose 1 S and 1 shot every bracket and see how long that lasts. Not sure I agree with that. If I'm holding an M249 and holding the trigger, it's going to fire 800 rounds a minute. If you blow my leg off, it's still going to fire 800 rpm.
If I'm swinging a sword at you with X lbs of pressure, and you blow my leg off, I bet that I'm going to lose some strength.
Vehicles should lose movement, BS, and hell, maybe even armor save. Monsters should lose WS, S, and maybe Movement, if you're wanting to make it more realistic.
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Post by dotcomee on Dec 11, 2019 21:08:29 GMT
Books that GW produce aren't to balance the game, they are to sell models, flat out. There's probably not much balance taken into consideration (only the most egregious errors). If there was, a lot more units would be viable.
It's all fuel to sell models.
Sometimes they want to slow down model sales, so the points will go up or their special ability that was good will get nerfed.
Sometimes they have excess inventory and need to sell more models, so those points will go down significantly, or they will gain new rules to make them popular again.
Think about it, they never need to put anything on sale. They just need to put on another $30 book which people happy snap up, with shiny new rules that feature some models they want to sell at ridiculous prices.
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Post by killercroc on Dec 11, 2019 21:19:10 GMT
I could see that being an issue, design team making a cool new big bad bug to push to the players then the rules team going "wtf is that! We gotta make rules for something you just pulled out of thin air?" still I mean... hate to say it but if they're had rules writers for this long that still have an issue writing rules well... it's called firing incompetent workers and hiring competent ones. I know, it's a radical idea. I'm sure the issue of Tyranid monster rules might have been an issue at one point but that's not the case now, they're the exact same as vehicles and GW doesn't seem to have any issue with making vehicles good, so what gives with the monsters? But that's tied into the issue with tanks and mosnters. Tank loses BS but that cannon has the same S and RoF when weakened, but monsters lose WS, S and A so they're in a way worse than tanks. Make AM/SM heavy weapons lose 1 S and 1 shot every bracket and see how long that lasts. Not sure I agree with that. If I'm holding an M249 and holding the trigger, it's going to fire 800 rounds a minute. If you blow my leg off, it's still going to fire 800 rpm. If I'm swinging a sword at you with X lbs of pressure, and you blow my leg off, I bet that I'm going to lose some strength. Vehicles should lose movement, BS, and hell, maybe even armor save. Monsters should lose WS, S, and maybe Movement, if you're wanting to make it more realistic.
Not talking about realistic in a game about space wizards, ships that fly through hell and time warp to before when they left and green aliens that grow bigger the more they punch things. I'm talking about balance in a game system, not what makes sense. The idea behind degrading stats was X unit is big and bad and when X unit takes damage they're less effective, but even at their last wound they're still dangerous and can do more than say infantry units. Vehicles with laser cannons don't give a flying pixie (please do not swear) if they go from 10" to 7" to 4" movement but a combat creature does. |
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Post by mule on Dec 11, 2019 22:49:25 GMT
Ok guys, ill sacrifice myself and make the tyranids rules we deserve.
Honestly though, we just need straight forwards rules not combo stuff.
Our lictors should be able to deepstrike wherever turn 1 outside of 9. Have a -1 to hit while in cover and some ok stats to kill some cheaper characters. Aka snipers. With a stratagem that lets us get within 3 of a character for 2 points.
If we dont get invulns thats fine, give all of our bigger bugs t8/t9 with a 2+ or 3+.
Exocrines are fine where theyre at as being the stationary shooting unit. Give them t8 3+ and 6 more inch range.
Tyrannofex should be our mobile platform. Give them t9 1.5 amount of shots and a 3+ no double shoot rules but no penalty to moving/advance and shooting weapons.
Tervigon should be t9 2+ with rules to dump wounds on a 5+ to termagants. But take damage in mortal wounds on a fail.
Fliers should be a lot more survivible. Just give them more wounds and a -1 to hit with charge+ tie up potential.
I really like that Maleceptor stratagem but it should just be an inherent, this unit can either do a mean targeted smite for d6 mw on a 7+ an aoe one thats on a 7+ 1d3 mw for every enemy unit within 3. Or if the unit gives a -1S aura like the stratagem if you havent used its psychic ability since your last psychic phase. Meaning it gives the -1s on turn 1 even if you go second.
Give genestealers a stratagem to stop fall backs, you shouldnt be able to run away from genestealers. Make carnifex get that 4++ invuln vs overwatch with a stratagem thats just any tyranid unit says we ignore overwatch for 4 cp, factions got tanglefoot, factions got vect. We need to make it into combat if we cant we're screwed.
We would have tools and options then.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 12, 2019 1:13:47 GMT
nintura it's a flexible stingray tail like N.I.B. likens it to. Flexible but strong muscle, tipped with a poisonous barb. A really big poisonous barb. Most whips don't hurt people no. And no, it didn't drag its occupants out of their tanks. It just rent holes in the Hull and let them die of spore clouds. If you insist that a Toxicrene works by dragging people around then I'm not gonna argue, but look at the model first. O.o
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 12, 2019 1:23:30 GMT
guys, whips in the real used by just regular people will cripple you.
lash whips on a creature with tendons like steel cables that weighs several tons in a setting with magic space wizards will (please do not swear) you up.
this is goofy, please move on, you're hurting my brain.
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 12, 2019 10:46:18 GMT
Have you NEVER seen any kind of movie that deals with a squid or kraken? It keeping people from falling back is exactly what a Toxicrine should do... hell, dare I say it here? go watch any hentai and you'll get an idea. then bleach your eyes. I mean, a whips identity is to grab things and keep them from moving or pull it towards you. Dude. I'm Asian. I dont need your lectures on H genres Have you bought a Toxicrene or seen one up close? Look at those tentacles. Those things are meant to stab, not grab. It aint got suckers on them. Now go google the Haruspex. You see how there are claws at the end of HIS tentacles in the shape of crane arms? While you're at it, maybe go read some of the lore books to get a feel of how each creature is represented. The Toxicrene featured heavily in the Shield of Baal book campaign series, being one of the main antagonists for Sisters and Blood Angels defending one of the crazy ass moons with tidal waves. That campaign mission was nutso. But if you read the lore (and I think the books have it as well), you'll notice that the Toxicrene actually kills his prey without engaging in combat with it. They die mostly to the poison spores that the Toxicrene releases, and the poison excreted along its tentacles are so potent they're more like acid and melts down armor and machinery. Its barbed tentacles were used to rend open tanks for its spores to seep in and poison crew of artillery pieces and tanks. I dont remember there even being a combat scene for the Sisters and Space Marines for the Toxicrene, never even found the foul things in the thick spore cover. Then you read and see artwork of the Haruspex, whose thing is LITERALLY GRABBING PEOPLE WITH TENTACLES AND SHOVING IT DOWN ITS MAW. We even had some funky gun in 7th ed we could shoot at specific models to rep it being pulled in by the tongue. Well, this one time GW released a monster kit for the Ogre Kingdoms with huge mammoth tusks and no trunk. Thing was unable to drink unless it was raining or it found a waterfall, and was unable to eat period. Let's not grace GW with logical sculpt choices. |
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Post by garg on Dec 12, 2019 11:40:01 GMT
Books that GW produce aren't to balance the game, they are to sell models, flat out. There's probably not much balance taken into consideration (only the most egregious errors). If there was, a lot more units would be viable. It's all fuel to sell models. Sometimes they want to slow down model sales, so the points will go up or their special ability that was good will get nerfed. Sometimes they have excess inventory and need to sell more models, so those points will go down significantly, or they will gain new rules to make them popular again. Think about it, they never need to put anything on sale. They just need to put on another $30 book which people happy snap up, with shiny new rules that feature some models they want to sell at ridiculous prices. While GWs goal with rules is to sell more books and models. I think they also understand that they sell more models when the game is fun for the most players which is definitely a function of balance. I really like the design of the BoB and adepteus sororitas stratagems being tied to specific units. So as a player i ask myself so i want to deny OW information pure Nids okay I'll bring a lictor. It's a win win to me, for GW i buy the model, for me i get to bring more diversity and not feel like I'm gimping myself. |
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Post by mule on Dec 12, 2019 14:37:16 GMT
Dude. I'm Asian. I dont need your lectures on H genres Have you bought a Toxicrene or seen one up close? Look at those tentacles. Those things are meant to stab, not grab. It aint got suckers on them. Now go google the Haruspex. You see how there are claws at the end of HIS tentacles in the shape of crane arms? While you're at it, maybe go read some of the lore books to get a feel of how each creature is represented. The Toxicrene featured heavily in the Shield of Baal book campaign series, being one of the main antagonists for Sisters and Blood Angels defending one of the crazy ass moons with tidal waves. That campaign mission was nutso. But if you read the lore (and I think the books have it as well), you'll notice that the Toxicrene actually kills his prey without engaging in combat with it. They die mostly to the poison spores that the Toxicrene releases, and the poison excreted along its tentacles are so potent they're more like acid and melts down armor and machinery. Its barbed tentacles were used to rend open tanks for its spores to seep in and poison crew of artillery pieces and tanks. I dont remember there even being a combat scene for the Sisters and Space Marines for the Toxicrene, never even found the foul things in the thick spore cover. Then you read and see artwork of the Haruspex, whose thing is LITERALLY GRABBING PEOPLE WITH TENTACLES AND SHOVING IT DOWN ITS MAW. We even had some funky gun in 7th ed we could shoot at specific models to rep it being pulled in by the tongue. Well, this one time GW released a monster kit for the Ogre Kingdoms with huge mammoth tusks and no trunk. Thing was unable to drink unless it was raining or it found a waterfall, and was unable to eat period. Let's not grace GW with logical sculpt choices. Rule of cool Pugs wouldnt exist without humans its possible to drink the things need the ogres to help them |
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