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Post by xetemara on Dec 8, 2019 18:56:35 GMT
As per topic... We had a friendly 1K Tyranids vs classic (non primaris) Marines today and I pulled a win with Tyranids in a stupid maelstrom mission. It really has been ages since I've played nor won anything with Nids and it felt really, really weird to not be completely smashed to oblivion. Of course, against anything higher meta armies, no, no chance in hell, but today yes. So I'm here thinking, how easy it was to just fix them, write them some new (mid tier) rules, drops the points by 6% and make them WAY more enjoyable to play. I mean the endless pain, sadness and the agony that Nids have brought to my gaming is brutal. And somebody, somewhere was able to just lift this faction from the crapper and make it ... not-fukking-absolute-pain-to-play. And I'm here completely baffled whyyyyyyyyyy does GW need to punish paying customers and enthusiastic hobbyist by forcing them to play with absolutely shhit-par rules for years  I guess this msg in the end was a just rhetoric question and incoherent rambling. |
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 8, 2019 20:10:40 GMT
They dont really seem to have a plan for the game. Or if they do, its poorly implemented so just looks like chaos.
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 8, 2019 20:16:50 GMT
Ever heard of Timmy, Johnny and Spike?
These are code names that were given by the Wizards of the Coast R&D team to describe three types of gamers in MtG, though I suppose it would work in all games that are 1v1 and have a competitive element.
A game needs to cater to all three of them if it wants to keep them as customers.
In short, Timmy is the guy who gets excited by big and flashy stuff. Timmy wants the company to release new flashy kits, new titanic units with humongous guns and stompy thunderfeet. Timmy doesn't want to win often, it's good enough that he wins BIG. He enjoys tabling his opponent every now and then with his super Gundam mega death robot 3000. In order to keep Timmy happy, the game needs to provide flashy big stuff and super powerful abilities, even if the model ends up costing 1500 pts. It NEEDS to provide awe tho. That's non negotiable.
Johnny is the deckbuilder, the theorycrafter. Johnny is Tzeentch's avatar. He has this elaborate plan that requires him to roll 7 or more on 2d6 eleven times in a row, but man when it does, the whole club will be amazed by the thought behind it. Johnny only cares to win one match every 2 years, as long as THE PLAN works to perfection. Johnny prefers spending 6 nights of the week planning and building lists with super combos rather than playing the game itself. For the sake of Johnny, the game needs to provide complex rules, incomplete units that require heavy thought and careful, sometimes painful planning and half arsed abilities that MIGHT, just maybe, work when you combine it with 14 other mediocre ones. In order to keep Johnny happy, GW makes the Tyranids for example.
Spike is the power gamer, you all know him, so I ain't gonna elaborate. Also, screw Spike.
GW does not make mistakes and does not wilfully hate Tyranids. They just need to provide a half arsed army because many people (including myself) always pick the path less traveled by, and always pick the thorny road even when they know it's gonna be more difficult.
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 8, 2019 20:25:00 GMT
Oh, they definitely make mistakes lol.
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 8, 2019 20:27:14 GMT
Oh, they definitely make mistakes lol. Yes, they definitely do. Not sure they did with Tyranids tho. Usually GW's mistakes make things OP, not underpowered. |
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Post by killercroc on Dec 8, 2019 20:44:04 GMT
So here's my question. Does GW KNOW they're screwing up Tyranids? I mean we talk as GW as one big blob but we all know it's different parts: Marketing, Design, Operations, Etc. There is a lot to the company, hell a lot to any company. So is it known that GW knows Nids aren't that good, or is it possible they think the army is fine it's just not played much? Say someone plays Nids in a tournie and has a great list, great rolls and pulls out some tricks, that's the only Nid player so from that point of view if there is one Nid player doing well Nids are strong just not popular? I mean SM are bread and butter but when half of your armies for sale are color coated flavors of SM who is surprised.
I'm just curious cause yeah GW could think Nids are great, or they could know they're bad and not care because we don't give anywhere as much money as other players. SM gets a new unit all flovors of SM players buy it, compared to Tyranids get a new unit all Tyranid players buy it, still just a fraction compared to marines "Screw the fraction they're not our main interest" sort of thing
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Post by xetemara on Dec 8, 2019 21:01:21 GMT
GW does not make mistakes and does not wilfully hate Tyranids. They just need to provide a half arsed army because many people (including myself) always pick the path less traveled by, and always pick the thorny road even when they know it's gonna be more difficult. This was very nicely put. I personally always pick the opposition, I do always play the underdog fighting the man. In this regards you are spot on. But I do not enjoy losing when I give my absolute best... So I guess I'm Spinny? |
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Post by xetemara on Dec 8, 2019 21:06:36 GMT
So here's my question. Does GW KNOW they're screwing up Tyranids? I mean we talk as GW as one big blob but we all know it's different parts: Marketing, Design, Operations, Etc. There is a lot to the company, hell a lot to any company. So is it known that GW knows Nids aren't that good, or is it possible they think the army is fine it's just not played much? Say someone plays Nids in a tournie and has a great list, great rolls and pulls out some tricks, that's the only Nid player so from that point of view if there is one Nid player doing well Nids are strong just not popular? I mean SM are bread and butter but when half of your armies for sale are color coated flavors of SM who is surprised. I'm just curious cause yeah GW could think Nids are great, or they could know they're bad and not care because we don't give anywhere as much money as other players. SM gets a new unit all flovors of SM players buy it, compared to Tyranids get a new unit all Tyranid players buy it, still just a fraction compared to marines "Screw the fraction they're not our main interest" sort of thing GW most likely have the release roadmap planned for the next 4-5 years and know that nothing exciting is going to be released for Nids and therefore are attending the flashier stuff... The other side of this coin is that SM needs Nids. They need us to be the ultimate devourer from the abyss of space that seems overpowering to the point that it actually helps to hold the imperium together. In lore that is. |
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 8, 2019 21:55:46 GMT
Y'all are attributing waaaaay too much planning to this. They may have their releases planned, yes, these things have a significant lead time both for models and print books. but there is zero evidence they have any plan for the game itself.
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Post by N.I.B. on Dec 8, 2019 22:00:52 GMT
From a business model it makes sense that all factions should be able to cater to Timmy, Johnny and Spike. You can't just have Timmy, Johnny and Spike factions because people tend to shift between the 'personalities'. And 40K isn't MtG, we're way deeper invested in time, and money. You want to be Spike for a while, in MtG, you can just buy a deck for a couple of hundred dollars and you're set. In 40K if you would be stuck in a Johnny faction, chances are you quit the hobby.
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Post by nintura on Dec 8, 2019 22:42:11 GMT
Ever heard of Timmy, Johnny and Spike? These are code names that were given by the Wizards of the Coast R&D team to describe three types of gamers in MtG, though I suppose it would work in all games that are 1v1 and have a competitive element. A game needs to cater to all three of them if it wants to keep them as customers. In short, Timmy is the guy who gets excited by big and flashy stuff. Timmy wants the company to release new flashy kits, new titanic units with humongous guns and stompy thunderfeet. Timmy doesn't want to win often, it's good enough that he wins BIG. He enjoys tabling his opponent every now and then with his super Gundam mega death robot 3000. In order to keep Timmy happy, the game needs to provide flashy big stuff and super powerful abilities, even if the model ends up costing 1500 pts. It NEEDS to provide awe tho. That's non negotiable. Johnny is the deckbuilder, the theorycrafter. Johnny is Tzeentch's avatar. He has this elaborate plan that requires him to roll 7 or more on 2d6 eleven times in a row, but man when it does, the whole club will be amazed by the thought behind it. Johnny only cares to win one match every 2 years, as long as THE PLAN works to perfection. Johnny prefers spending 6 nights of the week planning and building lists with super combos rather than playing the game itself. For the sake of Johnny, the game needs to provide complex rules, incomplete units that require heavy thought and careful, sometimes painful planning and half arsed abilities that MIGHT, just maybe, work when you combine it with 14 other mediocre ones. In order to keep Johnny happy, GW makes the Tyranids for example. Spike is the power gamer, you all know him, so I ain't gonna elaborate. Also, screw Spike. GW does not make mistakes and does not wilfully hate Tyranids. They just need to provide a half arsed army because many people (including myself) always pick the path less traveled by, and always pick the thorny road even when they know it's gonna be more difficult. Damn, Nail, meet Head. |
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Post by No One on Dec 9, 2019 0:43:51 GMT
GW does not make mistakes and does not wilfully hate Tyranids. They just need to provide a half arsed army because many people (including myself) always pick the path less traveled by, and always pick the thorny road even when they know it's gonna be more difficult. Except...no? Nids post Codex were a pretty solid, probably upper mid tier army. With one or two strong builds (stealer slingshot was top tier in the right hands and/or with CA GSC, possibly even meta in some areas. Flyrant spam had a brief moment in the sun, and gaunt carpet did reasonable in some areas). A lot of mediocre/bad stuff, but that stuff was just bad: the elaborate plan (Johnny) was good, because it was slingshot stuff. Our bad stuff had no plan. We're in a bad spot because of power creep (and flyrant nerfs/half the Codex being sub par intially), not because GW decided 'oh, we'll give these guys a bad Codex, they'll like that'. |
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Post by hivemind03 on Dec 9, 2019 1:54:13 GMT
Dont forget that the codex was designed under a very different rule set. Tyranids were great at the first turn deepstrike game. That doesnt exist anymore.
Now sure, a lot of that devlgant bomb and deepstrike x thing next to Swarmy was a bit janky but there was a lot more to scheme about and just have fun with when the dex first dropped. Then they both directly and indirectly nerfed us over and over and over until the army became a shadow of itself.
Since the Marine codices started dropping it just feels so much worse seeing the love that GW is capable of pouring into an army and choose not to give to us. But heres the bright side. We'll eventually get a new book and maybe we'll get the power creep treatment. I just hope by then GW realizes that re-roll auras are not fun or interesting
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 9, 2019 2:44:40 GMT
oh, you sweet summer child.
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Post by hivemind03 on Dec 9, 2019 3:15:16 GMT
Im not naive thinking we'll get another book. We will. I promise.
And I only said MAYBE it will be better. But trust me i have 0 faith that GW will get anything right except by pure accident and they will be quick to ruin it even if they do.
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