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Post by xetemara on Dec 10, 2019 15:49:43 GMT
Regarding the new BoB stratagems that very specifically target certain units in narrow conditions, I kinda like them. They could be a tad stronger even if very specific, I feel they would be be healthy for the game instead of the more carpet type variety. I don't mind if Haruspex is a pos if I can nake it a beast with a proper stratagem at the time I need it!
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Post by dranzyl on Dec 11, 2019 0:09:31 GMT
What kind of irks me is that while GW can clearly identify where they screwed up (haru not being ws4) instead of fixing it they introduce stratagems to do the same thing.
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 11, 2019 9:54:29 GMT
What kind of irks me is that while GW can clearly identify where they screwed up (haru not being ws4) instead of fixing it they introduce stratagems to do the same thing. So, they are fixing it  I get your point. However, I would be ok with having the fixes in stratagems, IF we had cheap HQ so that we could go triple battalion. SM have their 45 pt techmarine, sisters have 45 pts canoness, tau have 40 pts marksmen etc. Nids have the tyranid prime which is 77 pts and only makes sense to take one IF you bring warriors and does not make sense to bring two. Then it's 90 pts for what can be considered a universal good HQ. Because of that, we cannot spam cheap battalions to get 18+ CP. For a horde army, this is very disappointing. |
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 11, 2019 13:04:57 GMT
What kind of irks me is that while GW can clearly identify where they screwed up (haru not being ws4) instead of fixing it they introduce stratagems to do the same thing. So, they are fixing it I get your point. However, I would be ok with having the fixes in stratagems, IF we had cheap HQ so that we could go triple battalion. SM have their 45 pt techmarine, sisters have 45 pts canoness, tau have 40 pts marksmen etc. Nids have the tyranid prime which is 77 pts and only makes sense to take one IF you bring warriors and does not make sense to bring two. Then it's 90 pts for what can be considered a universal good HQ. Because of that, we cannot spam cheap battalions to get 18+ CP. For a horde army, this is very disappointing. They fixed nothing, haruspex is just slightly less bad. He still only has 8 attacks, the strat just gives him two extrat hits on average. Yippikayeah mother..er  They fixed toxicrene though, because hugging a unit can win you a game, as you can get other units in the fight, making them impossible to target because they will be in CC. |
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Post by dranzyl on Dec 11, 2019 13:50:11 GMT
What i was geting at was that reroll misses on four ws4 attacks is pretty much the same as four ws3 attacks. Only it doesnt cost cp.
I dont understand the logic behind seeing there is a problem, identifying it, finding the solution (at least a part of it, the haru is a hot mess) and then implementing a half baked fix.
The only hope i see is if they didnt want to change rules in a supplement and CA was already finalized.
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Post by purestrain on Dec 11, 2019 14:34:22 GMT
So, they are fixing it I get your point. However, I would be ok with having the fixes in stratagems, IF we had cheap HQ so that we could go triple battalion. SM have their 45 pt techmarine, sisters have 45 pts canoness, tau have 40 pts marksmen etc. Nids have the tyranid prime which is 77 pts and only makes sense to take one IF you bring warriors and does not make sense to bring two. Then it's 90 pts for what can be considered a universal good HQ. Because of that, we cannot spam cheap battalions to get 18+ CP. For a horde army, this is very disappointing. They fixed nothing, haruspex is just slightly less bad. He still only has 8 attacks, the strat just gives him two extrat hits on average. Yippikayeah mother..er They fixed toxicrene though, because hugging a unit can win you a game, as you can get other units in the fight, making them impossible to target because they will be in CC. Custom hive fleet with +1 hit on charge, when charged, or perform HI and Spawns of the outer dark for 4+++ vs overwatch. 1cp to reroll his hits, 1cp to reroll monster wounds. How about you read before you (please do not swear)? |
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 11, 2019 14:43:21 GMT
They fixed nothing, haruspex is just slightly less bad. He still only has 8 attacks, the strat just gives him two extrat hits on average. Yippikayeah mother..er They fixed toxicrene though, because hugging a unit can win you a game, as you can get other units in the fight, making them impossible to target because they will be in CC. Custom hive fleet with +1 hit on charge, when charged, or perform HI and Spawns of the outer dark for 4+++ vs overwatch. 1cp to reroll his hits, 1cp to reroll monster wounds. How about you read before you (please do not swear)? Still bad, you will hurt something for 150 pts and 3 cps, also forcing you in a specific hive fleet. Also, if you are not kraken or behemoth, you will have trouble charging around these ruins and other terrain fea tures which are necessary for a decent game.
So I stand by my Yippikayeah mother..er |
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Post by purestrain on Dec 11, 2019 14:45:27 GMT
Custom hive fleet with +1 hit on charge, when charged, or perform HI and Spawns of the outer dark for 4+++ vs overwatch. 1cp to reroll his hits, 1cp to reroll monster wounds. How about you read before you (please do not swear)? Still bad, you will hurt something for 150 pts and 3 cps, also forcing you in a specific hive fleet. Also, if you are not kraken or behemoth, you will have trouble charging around these ruins and other terrain fea tures which are necessary for a decent game.
So I stand by my Yippikayeah mother..er Nah, you just cant pilot a Nidzilla list. |
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 11, 2019 14:58:06 GMT
Still bad, you will hurt something for 150 pts and 3 cps, also forcing you in a specific hive fleet. Also, if you are not kraken or behemoth, you will have trouble charging around these ruins and other terrain fea tures which are necessary for a decent game.
So I stand by my Yippikayeah mother..er Nah, you just cant pilot a Nidzilla list. Or perhaps I just don't face baby seals like you do hah hah (but please, don't let me spoil your fun clubbing them) |
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 11, 2019 15:09:31 GMT
Honestly, for 150 pts a haruspex should not be able to demolish planets. Yes ws 4+ sucks, but it is not hopeless. We can give it monstrous size on its maw attacks, which also results on more claw attacks. We can play the custom hive fleet indeed, and we can still help it get 3d6 charges with a potential CP reroll.
Sure it would be nice if we didn't have to burn 8CP per turn, or if we get cheap brigades with 30 pt HQs, but it is what it is.
Really, how would you like a Hormagaunt prime HQ, T3, W4 larger hormagaunt with "Hormagaunt units within 6" get +1 to hit for like 30 pts a pop?
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Post by killercroc on Dec 11, 2019 15:23:34 GMT
This really depends on your mindset which is a big thing, in regards to the Haru: What do you want him to do? What are your other units doing? How much of what the haru does do you need? I think taking one Haru and expecting it to be amazing will leave you with negative results, even if it was WS 2+, copy paste is the name of the game ladies and gents. Need the Haru to do something? Bring 3 or don't bother. As annoying as marines are they still don't bring 1 lascannon and call their anti-tank sorted, they bring Cents, Devs, Preds, Dreads, etc. Guard don't bring 1 Leman Russ they bring a column of them. so that's what we have to do.
I don't see going +1 on the charge as a waste on the Haru or boxing you in a fleet, if anything you wanna bring Haru? Want him to be good? Take the +1 fleet and also tank lots of other big bugs that can benefit from it. Don't take one MC and think the trait is trash, you need to focus your army around it. Personally I'm looking at the +1 AP when outnumbering and +1 to hit with MCs so that way both my hordes and big bugs get a boost from it. That +1 to hit makes Haru, Toxicrene, Mal, Trygon all much better options, plus with their point decreases you can field even more little bugs to go around their feet. Hormies out front to hit the line and tie things up and Termies round flanks to stop deep strikers and hold objectives.
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Post by nintura on Dec 11, 2019 16:34:52 GMT
This really depends on your mindset which is a big thing, in regards to the Haru: What do you want him to do? What are your other units doing? How much of what the haru does do you need? I think taking one Haru and expecting it to be amazing will leave you with negative results, even if it was WS 2+, copy paste is the name of the game ladies and gents. Need the Haru to do something? Bring 3 or don't bother. As annoying as marines are they still don't bring 1 lascannon and call their anti-tank sorted, they bring Cents, Devs, Preds, Dreads, etc. Guard don't bring 1 Leman Russ they bring a column of them. so that's what we have to do. I don't see going +1 on the charge as a waste on the Haru or boxing you in a fleet, if anything you wanna bring Haru? Want him to be good? Take the +1 fleet and also tank lots of other big bugs that can benefit from it. Don't take one MC and think the trait is trash, you need to focus your army around it. Personally I'm looking at the +1 AP when outnumbering and +1 to hit with MCs so that way both my hordes and big bugs get a boost from it. That +1 to hit makes Haru, Toxicrene, Mal, Trygon all much better options, plus with their point decreases you can field even more little bugs to go around their feet. Hormies out front to hit the line and tie things up and Termies round flanks to stop deep strikers and hold objectives. Yes but they can do that because they have 100 units that can bring a lascannon and for decently cheap price. We can't. |
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Post by killercroc on Dec 11, 2019 16:43:47 GMT
That's true, Tyranids are kinda (please do not swear) when it comes to special/heavy weapon options. Not much we can do about it besides spam or find a workable alternative.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 11, 2019 18:02:40 GMT
This really depends on your mindset which is a big thing, in regards to the Haru: What do you want him to do? What are your other units doing? How much of what the haru does do you need? I think taking one Haru and expecting it to be amazing will leave you with negative results, even if it was WS 2+, copy paste is the name of the game ladies and gents. Need the Haru to do something? Bring 3 or don't bother. As annoying as marines are they still don't bring 1 lascannon and call their anti-tank sorted, they bring Cents, Devs, Preds, Dreads, etc. Guard don't bring 1 Leman Russ they bring a column of them. so that's what we have to do. I don't see going +1 on the charge as a waste on the Haru or boxing you in a fleet, if anything you wanna bring Haru? Want him to be good? Take the +1 fleet and also tank lots of other big bugs that can benefit from it. Don't take one MC and think the trait is trash, you need to focus your army around it. Personally I'm looking at the +1 AP when outnumbering and +1 to hit with MCs so that way both my hordes and big bugs get a boost from it. That +1 to hit makes Haru, Toxicrene, Mal, Trygon all much better options, plus with their point decreases you can field even more little bugs to go around their feet. Hormies out front to hit the line and tie things up and Termies round flanks to stop deep strikers and hold objectives. Yes but they can do that because they have 100 units that can bring a lascannon and for decently cheap price. We can't. IIRC we have a better and cheaper lascannon equivalent that can be brought on a decent platform? Last tourney I went to, all Lascannons were on Dreadnoughts. Lascannon Dreads have never been considered cheap or well priced by any meta - it's either overpriced or just fine. AM have the most cost efficient Lascannon spam in the world, you still dont see that happening. *shrug* In any army composition, it comes down to Synergy and Role. Does the Haruspex have a role in your army? Does it synergize with the rest of your army? Is there a tool that does the same role better and synergize better with your army? The problem of Haruspex is that it doesnt do anything particularly unique. With only 4A that does d3 each (assuming then 8A), and each A that kills a model(?) gets another A of anti-tank, it's trying to fulfill two roles at the same time yet being not very good at either, and its primary role of infantry killing is better served by Genestealers who are more flexible, more attacks, more survivable, etc etc etc; while its secondary role of can opener is done by a Fex much better. Other than "I like the model", there is no reason or Unique Selling Point to the Haruspex. Honestly speaking the Haruspex is our big hungry NOM NOM monster, this is the one that should get boatload of attacks and absolutely tear into stuff. What its special rules should be is that for every A that lands, it can attack with another A, choosing its weapon and target. Give it 5A base and each anti-infantry A is 3 hit rolls. The strategem should be to deny falling back, since this is the Mr Munchy with extending tongues that grab people and pull them back. The Toxicrene doesnt have its own thing other than being this huge acid melty thing that produces spores that chokes people to death and is super poisonous and venomous and whatever. Having a strategem to deny fall back is nice, but fluff wise I think its the wrong chassis. Toxicrene should have its strategem based around its identity, which should be to whip people and dissolve them. I'd give it a strategem for 2cp to 1: strengthen its mortal wound gen ability and 2: reroll hits of its tentacles and 3: do mortal wounds on 4+ or 5+ to wound. Considering its 6A only, the max could be 6 mortal wounds, with an additional aura d3 I think from his unique ability. This firmly places it as an anti-elite monster while also being pleasantly fluffy, very visceral in its image IMO. |
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Post by nintura on Dec 11, 2019 18:09:03 GMT
Have you NEVER seen any kind of movie that deals with a squid or kraken? It keeping people from falling back is exactly what a Toxicrine should do... hell, dare I say it here? go watch any hentai and you'll get an idea. then bleach your eyes. I mean, a whips identity is to grab things and keep them from moving or pull it towards you.
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