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Post by kazetanade on Dec 10, 2019 17:13:10 GMT
The only "vitamin rich" supplement I've seen people have ridiculous issues with is IH, because it lends itself to a shooting army. The list people are having problems with isn't even in the top 5 for Atlanta open atm. RG is top right now and I haven't seen a SINGLE complaint about them on this forum. I feel like people have been overgeneralizing the power of SM - they are a force to be reckoned with yes. The gatekeeper list is a no brains shootout hurr durr play, what's new. But not every SM faction is equally powerful. And even the "powerful" one's don't ignore as many core rules as Knights do, and hence can be handled with good lists and smart play. Sneggy has been doing fine (not to be confused with easy) against these lists using GSC, I have had my measure of success against them too, as will most GSC players who actually know how to play and build their armies, because GSC was given tools to deal with problems. Now Nids have been given some tools to deal with these same problems. Guys. This problem is MORE SURMOUNTABLE THAN THE TRIPLE KNIGHT BANE. we can actually handle this problem. Put some context into it man. I'm getting so sick of every thread become a complain thread about why SM is so much better than us and GW only takes care of poster boys when 6 months ago SM didn't even register on the map. Yea they could give us more, but seriously cool it guys, rules parity is like a roulette. Stop treating it like a conspiracy and stop victimising yourself. Eh ravenguard are pretty mean too tbh. IH isn't necessarily the issue, they got nerfed quite hard they're still pretty unmovable, but it's honestly just SM, their saves, aura's and damage output. I agree that we have tools but a lot of our tools aren't entirely helpful vs the tools SM has. Auspex, Transhuman, TFC Lockdown, rerolls ontop of already consistent shots, high quality shots vs our no saves, fallback + rapid fire bolter shots. Etc. Pair that vs the fact that our army want's to be in melee, where the rules are the weakest compared to shooting, takes more skill to actually get into and do properly, and that SM have some very punchy units that match how punchy ours are, with us having worse saves just makes the match up very hard because we're not rewarded in any facet of the phases. We at least have more tools now, I'm just not entirely sure it's enough. That said. Auspex wouldn't be that scary if it happened after the psychic phase cause then we could cast the horror on something and have a malenthrope/venomthrope nearby to give them a -3 to shooting. But alas doesn't work that way. I know IH isnt the issue. But listen to the complaints coming out, it's "SM is broken" and refer back to IH lists breaking their backs. The amount of complaining is getting absurd. There are other people out there facing this rubbish and finding success, or working out strategies to deal with it. If we dont have the tools or the ability to fight back at all, then yes we should raise hell about it. No army should be subject to a "I'm just gonna sit here and wait" conclusion in this game unless you bloody put yourself in that corner. But I dont think we're at that situation here but people are already whining. Hell, our book only just came out "OH ITS (please do not swear) OH ITS BAD (please do not swear) GW BRAINLESS DESIGNERS". Like seriously. At least take a month to experiment on stuff and see if it makes your games better. Dont be like that snowflake that goes "I ONLY PLAY FLUFFY GAMES HUFF HUFF", then turns around and goes "WOW MY ARMY IS SO BAD, LOOK AT XX ITS SO STRONG, WHY DOESNT GW MAKE THIS ARMY STRONG". /rant |
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Post by mule on Dec 10, 2019 17:18:56 GMT
Eh ravenguard are pretty mean too tbh. IH isn't necessarily the issue, they got nerfed quite hard they're still pretty unmovable, but it's honestly just SM, their saves, aura's and damage output. I agree that we have tools but a lot of our tools aren't entirely helpful vs the tools SM has. Auspex, Transhuman, TFC Lockdown, rerolls ontop of already consistent shots, high quality shots vs our no saves, fallback + rapid fire bolter shots. Etc. Pair that vs the fact that our army want's to be in melee, where the rules are the weakest compared to shooting, takes more skill to actually get into and do properly, and that SM have some very punchy units that match how punchy ours are, with us having worse saves just makes the match up very hard because we're not rewarded in any facet of the phases. We at least have more tools now, I'm just not entirely sure it's enough. That said. Auspex wouldn't be that scary if it happened after the psychic phase cause then we could cast the horror on something and have a malenthrope/venomthrope nearby to give them a -3 to shooting. But alas doesn't work that way. I know IH isnt the issue. But listen to the complaints coming out, it's "SM is broken" and refer back to IH lists breaking their backs. The amount of complaining is getting absurd. There are other people out there facing this rubbish and finding success, or working out strategies to deal with it. If we dont have the tools or the ability to fight back at all, then yes we should raise hell about it. No army should be subject to a "I'm just gonna sit here and wait" conclusion in this game unless you bloody put yourself in that corner. But I dont think we're at that situation here but people are already whining. Hell, our book only just came out "OH ITS (please do not swear) OH ITS BAD (please do not swear) GW BRAINLESS DESIGNERS". Like seriously. At least take a month to experiment on stuff and see if it makes your games better. Dont be like that snowflake that goes "I ONLY PLAY FLUFFY GAMES HUFF HUFF", then turns around and goes "WOW MY ARMY IS SO BAD, LOOK AT XX ITS SO STRONG, WHY DOESNT GW MAKE THIS ARMY STRONG". /rant I mean, there is no doubt SM are broken though, they're placing 8 of the top 10 in the majority of tournaments. With Codex Drone with their single build pulling wins away because of terrain in ITC. Like I said we have tools, I agree with you we should experiment. But I personally don't think the tools we got will actually make us competitive vs SM. Lot's of people are jumping on the lictor but all of the things i've tested this weekend wouldn't work with a lictor, it doesn't fix anything, and we mind as well just take a gsc detachment to stop overwatch because it's flat out stronger and we can outplay them instead of them outplaying us. Which is my main issue with our codex, we don't have all the tools we need, we need to use other codex's to be on the front foot. But prior to the SM changes, we had 7 different armies consistently placing in the top 10 where now we only have 3, to me that points out a problem with balance. |
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Post by killercroc on Dec 10, 2019 17:35:36 GMT
Just an aside I felt like telling, I had to explain to a veteran SM player how good Whirlwinds and TFC are because he'd never field them against my nids. Pointing out the amount of firepower and low cost plus strats they have, SM artillery is a pretty solid choice. Got a kick telling a SM player what units of his were good against my hordes and dude probably has 5 years of gaming over me. Unfortunately for him next game we played I felt like Nidzilla for a change so it didn't work out quite as well... win some/lose some.
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Post by mule on Dec 10, 2019 17:38:41 GMT
Just an aside I felt like telling, I had to explain to a veteran SM player how good Whirlwinds and TFC are because he'd never field them against my nids. Pointing out the amount of firepower and low cost plus strats they have, SM artillery is a pretty solid choice. Got a kick telling a SM player what units of his were good against my hordes and dude probably has 5 years of gaming over me. Unfortunately for him next game we played I felt like Nidzilla for a change so it didn't work out quite as well... win some/lose some. if you're playing itc, there is no reason for a SM player not to take them unless they're fielding a specific army and know exactly why they're taking every piece. Just like when biovores were 35? points each there was really no reason not to take 6. |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 10, 2019 17:38:55 GMT
I think it points to a shift where people don't know how to work around the army. The numarines is definitely strong no doubt, but GSC was also dominating the first 2 or 3 months of its release before people really got a feel of how to deal with the army.
I also think we need to differentiate between SM type 1 and type 2 type 3 etc etc etc - the army is a jack of all trades that can do anything at a time, but not everything at once. (the Tyranid Army is inversed in that we can do everything at once, but none of it as well as others). IH lists are shooting gunlinez, RG is herohammer, WS is Genestealers on steroids, etc etc, each very different from the other and blanketing them as "SM" doesn't elevate the situation, it muddles it.
I think after Atlanta we'll see whether SM are broken or other factions can actually compete.
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Post by nintura on Dec 10, 2019 20:51:21 GMT
Do we even have any Monstrous Units? Or just Carnifexes?
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Post by No One on Dec 11, 2019 1:00:51 GMT
It's 4d3 S5 -1ap 1damage, vs 4d6 S5 0AP 1 damage reroll all wounds with ignore cover, if you think that's good then ok. ... 3+ rr1s, difference isnt big. TFC is -2 in dev doctrine (which is where you really want it for the gun), hits on 2+, rr1s if IH, Dam 2 if Fists. And wyvern is S4. Like, it's not 'pick up big squads', but it is very strong chip over the course of a game for a price where you can comfortably slot one in, or take several if you want them to put out some serious firepower. OOE, biovores, mass chaff. Great tools? Nope. Do we have great tools against SM? Also not sure what you meant by ignoring core rules? Knights had 'walk out of combat', 'get back up', and 'fight at full'. Those weren't why they were good, though they would've been bad without, just raw stats. IH get ignore heavy, can't be charged and raw stats. You keep pointing at the castellan as if that makes it fine: it doesn't, I don't think anyone liked the knight meta, and some people weren't even playing then (I know I managed to dodge most of the castellan meta). I really don't get what you're trying to say here. Yes, RG are strong. Maybe in the hands of a great general they're stronger than IH. But IH are plenty strong and much more prevalent. But yes, on the topic of RG, they don't do nice things to flyrants. I mean, yes and no? Consistently placed high (and then less consistently once people knew how to play against them better), but GSC is also an army that's usually built around punishing mistakes in positioning. And it was usually a guy that knew how to play GSC well. |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 11, 2019 2:48:07 GMT
No OneI did not point to any Castellan - I'm pointing to the fact that Knights had the below: 1. Could not be locked in combat 2. Had both strong shooting and melee phases with weapons that dealt with both enemy profiles. 3. Could move full distances and shoot and charge still 4. Was an army that could not be killed unless you had good anti-tank melee or extremely good and high volume of anti-tank range. 5. Had good relic and strategems support 6. Had a unit that ignored core principles of Invuls, LOS, Character Protection IH is just a good gunline that shoots well and has maybe 2? Good strategem in it. Most of the commonly used strategems for IH players come from codex SM. I did also say that the TFC is threatening in the Dev Doctrine, and not very outside of it. Yes it's decently priced at 81pts, but saying something is strong cuz of price is like saying PIRAHNAS ARE OP BECAUSE THEY'RE 50PTS.that chassis is so ridiculously underpriced - 25pts for T5 W6 4+sv 16" move. 20pts for gundrones. 8 pts for burst cannon. Ref the RG - what I'm trying to say is that there are other types of list out there, some of which are low key, or uncommon, who can pull more weight than these IH lists. That are more threatening, more flexible, can achieve more with a good pilot. But we're obsessed with the low skilled gatekeeper army and using it as a measure of why SM is broken. Wait a few months til people start working around IH gunlinez and see where they end up.
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Post by N.I.B. on Dec 11, 2019 12:18:32 GMT
RG, I assume Raven Guard, do they have a codex? What is their schtick? Flyers? Special rules?
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Post by No One on Dec 11, 2019 12:28:56 GMT
Yeah, raven guard. Sneaky stuff in general: hit negs, redeploy, DS. Super doctrine is +1 to hit/wound Characters in tac doctrine. So smash caps/eliminators are really good against e.g. Char knights, flyrants.
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Post by dranzyl on Dec 11, 2019 14:14:32 GMT
By my limited understanding the knight problem was a question of 'can your list deal with multiple superheavies?'.
I dont think the numarines lists can be summarized/solved so easily (for all the reasons already mentioned elsewere).
PS: i am filing all flavours of power armor dudes under numarines
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 11, 2019 18:12:19 GMT
RG, I assume Raven Guard, do they have a codex? What is their schtick? Flyers? Special rules? Like No One mentioned, their special shtick is they get +1 Hit +1 Wound vs Characters. They have Cover always, and when in actual cover, get -1 to hit. They have a strategem that works like GSC's hide in shadow one - grants character protection to a unit that's in cover and not the closest in LOS. They've got 3 methods of positioning - they can DS down, they can Infiltrate in your face, and they can re-deploy from Deployment into DS/Infiltrate. They get a bunch of rerolls for warlords/monsters/characters in their strategems. Not sure what else is played but what I've seen so far is Hero Hammer and getting hard to move stuff in range - Aggressors, Centurions, and other slow moving things work really well in RG since you just drop them in peoples faces, or start on the board. Should be centurions primarily since Aggressors dont benefit any double shooting in RG. It's in essence the defacto Alpha/Betastrike army, since pretty much anything and everything can be put into deepstrike, and everything not in deepstrike is pretty tanky in general. Sadly I think it got eliminated in the Atlanta open final day, Nick Nanavanti took IH from 6th? to 2nd during the Singles Elimination. Fun times, Tau got top placing with 50 drones and Aeldari jetbikes hung on for a 3rd or 4th place from memory. |
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Post by j0rdan on Dec 11, 2019 20:11:44 GMT
I played against RG last week. It was fun and not overly one-sided, but boy howdy to they hate characters. Your malanthrope WILL die. I would recommend taking the tougher characters, since you can't hide behind the character rule against this army.
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 11, 2019 22:34:23 GMT
RG also have a stupid thing that makes your stratagems cost 1 extra CP on a 4+. That's every single stratagem you use. They combine it with callidus assassin who does the same on a 5+ and they completely drain your CP or make it so you don't use any stratagems for the first two turns.
They can also deploy assault centurions 9" away from you turn 1 and they can also casually move and charge with them if they play first.
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Post by mule on Dec 11, 2019 22:54:40 GMT
i dont find forward deploying centurions fun when our lictors and genestealers cant forwards deploy.
Our ASSASSSIN and INFILTRATING unit are even infiltrating or assassinny and it sucks.
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