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Post by gigasnail on Dec 9, 2019 19:00:02 GMT
Another issue you will find is that large base MC platforms are difficult to slingshot due to not being able to move through ruin walls at all.
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Post by mattblowers on Dec 9, 2019 19:41:01 GMT
Another issue you will find is that large base MC platforms are difficult to slingshot due to not being able to move through ruin walls at all. I think that's a toss. If terrain is good enough to block MCs movement, then nids get a big leg up since we can hide things. My worst games are against Tau or SM with clear lanes of fire. |
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 9, 2019 19:47:57 GMT
Another issue you will find is that large base MC platforms are difficult to slingshot due to not being able to move through ruin walls at all. That would be a great attribute for the custom fleet: monsters can move through terrain as if it was not there." |
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 9, 2019 20:50:51 GMT
Another issue you will find is that large base MC platforms are difficult to slingshot due to not being able to move through ruin walls at all. I think that's a toss. If terrain is good enough to block MCs movement, then nids get a big leg up since we can hide things. My worst games are against Tau or SM with clear lanes of fire. Yeah the problem with that is that you cant completely block LoS, so they cant move well and they're still getting shot. |
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Post by dc0315 on Dec 9, 2019 21:19:11 GMT
I think that's a toss. If terrain is good enough to block MCs movement, then nids get a big leg up since we can hide things. My worst games are against Tau or SM with clear lanes of fire. Yeah the problem with that is that you cant completely block LoS, so they cant move well and they're still getting shot. space between 1 terrain piece and another is usually a minimum of 6", the problem in modern terrain are open widnows and non linear heights, not a gap to move an oval base. Atleast were i play. We usually just declare windows are closed to increase LOS blocking however i mever found it hard to move a tfex around before, same would apply for a toxi. |
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 9, 2019 21:52:22 GMT
Movement lanes have not been an issue. 1st level ruins blocking LoS will not block LoS to most MC's. The issue is you cant move through walls, and must move around.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 10, 2019 3:04:52 GMT
What giga means is that you can't draw a direct line, increasing the distance by twice needed. For eg, getting your base around a ruin you were hiding behind will cost you about 3 to 5" of SLs 9" movement, meaning you move up really short. You then have to further Manuver around a few blocks and into behind them to continue denying LOS, which makes a few 3-5" (some terrain like Novas L will cost you 7" or more to clear). That's SL, who is easy to hide compared to a Toxi, who has to sit clear in the middle of a ruins length, and likely can still be seen cuz tentacles are super hangly.
DS option for Toxi is prob the best bet. But single pod, Exo > Toxi, so you bring both pods. But Toxi doesn't get 3d6 8" reroll (9" 3d6 rr best case), putting him at 67% or so chance to make it in. Really good for casual and semi competitive.
My personal bet is that the Synapse 3d6 charge is our best bet. The only synapse creature that can give you a consistent charge is SL. Double move Stealers up to decimate scouts Infils and other push backers, double move SL next turn to get that first charge, then follow up with the 2 Flyrants or 3 Flyrants or anything else with AG. We can bring a Toxi just to tie down that unit and keep SL/others safe - we only need it on the turn we're down, because the turn after we can walk all over people usually.
The final puzzle to solve is the thunder fried chicken, since it can stop SL AND GS in their tracks...
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Post by bolzor on Dec 10, 2019 5:00:16 GMT
Well today I learned what a TFC is.... 81 points for that? All that bawling over how powerful biovores were and they're printing rules for that crock and giving it utility stratagems.
What are the odds of dumping a bunch of Kronos sporemines on top of it with the new Kronos power and Single Minded Annihilation? 3 Biovores hitting on 4s, rerolling 1s, getting double hits on 6s?
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Post by xtztxtxz on Dec 10, 2019 10:06:32 GMT
Well today I learned what a TFC is.... 81 points for that? All that bawling over how powerful biovores were and they're printing rules for that crock and giving it utility stratagems. What are the odds of dumping a bunch of Kronos sporemines on top of it with the new Kronos power and Single Minded Annihilation? 3 Biovores hitting on 4s, rerolling 1s, getting double hits on 6s? Statistically you're looking at 2.3 regular hits and 1.1 double hits, so the most likely outcome is 4 mortal wounds. *Just* enough to kill the cannon. Personally I'm not sure it's reliable enough for the 2CP investment or opportunity cost of not using Symbiostorm on something like an Exocrine. I wonder if Hive Guard might be a better option instead. A minimum sized brood should be easily enough to kill a TFC without Symbiostorm. Deploy them opposite the TFC and if needed use Onslaught to get them in range. |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 10, 2019 10:39:33 GMT
TFC is 60" range, HG is 36". Just play around it (ie - be aware of its strategem power, because the base gun is negligible). A Jorm HG unit with the new Adaptation wont even lose 1 model against it double firing, IIRC. 4d3 shots means 8 shots, 6 hits (rr1s), 3 wounds, 1 failed, 1 damage.
Honestly TFC is not the first time we've had to deal with this mess. Emperor's Wrath had the same shtick with Double Shoot and Stay Put. The Wyvern outputs more shots and is far scarier with rr to wounds and ignore cover. That thing double firing actually clears out my Genestealer squad, nevermind just slowing it down.
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 10, 2019 10:46:41 GMT
TFC is 60" range, HG is 36". Just play around it (ie - be aware of its strategem power, because the base gun is negligible). A Jorm HG unit with the new Adaptation wont even lose 1 model against it double firing, IIRC. 4d3 shots means 8 shots, 6 hits (rr1s), 3 wounds, 1 failed, 1 damage. Honestly TFC is not the first time we've had to deal with this mess. Emperor's Wrath had the same shtick with Double Shoot and Stay Put. The Wyvern outputs more shots and is far scarier with rr to wounds and ignore cover. That thing double firing actually clears out my Genestealer squad, nevermind just slowing it down. Nay, because wyvern is Astra Milit, and TFC is SM with those Vitamin Rich supplements... Astra milit's Emp Wrath can be souped into something interesting no doubt, but everyone will be able to deal with that soup easier than with an SM army. But I agree in a vacuum TFC is inferior to Emp's wrath in many situations |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 10, 2019 11:14:27 GMT
The only "vitamin rich" supplement I've seen people have ridiculous issues with is IH, because it lends itself to a shooting army. The list people are having problems with isn't even in the top 5 for Atlanta open atm.
RG is top right now and I haven't seen a SINGLE complaint about them on this forum.
I feel like people have been overgeneralizing the power of SM - they are a force to be reckoned with yes. The gatekeeper list is a no brains shootout hurr durr play, what's new.
But not every SM faction is equally powerful. And even the "powerful" one's don't ignore as many core rules as Knights do, and hence can be handled with good lists and smart play. Sneggy has been doing fine (not to be confused with easy) against these lists using GSC, I have had my measure of success against them too, as will most GSC players who actually know how to play and build their armies, because GSC was given tools to deal with problems. Now Nids have been given some tools to deal with these same problems.
Guys. This problem is MORE SURMOUNTABLE THAN THE TRIPLE KNIGHT BANE. we can actually handle this problem. Put some context into it man. I'm getting so sick of every thread become a complain thread about why SM is so much better than us and GW only takes care of poster boys when 6 months ago SM didn't even register on the map.
Yea they could give us more, but seriously cool it guys, rules parity is like a roulette. Stop treating it like a conspiracy and stop victimising yourself.
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Post by No One on Dec 10, 2019 15:50:43 GMT
RG is top right now and I haven't seen a SINGLE complaint about them on this forum. Um? Not sure where you're getting that from...Most recent week, 8 IH top 4s. 1 RG, 1 IF (and one soup with IH). 2 weeks ago, 7 IH (and 1 souped). 1 RG pure (and 2 souped). Wyvern gets more shots, but hits worse. Wyvern is a bit better with Cadian/Catachan, but only ~1 stealer with double tap. And TFC is ~20 pts cheaper and has more AP for things that aren't rocking a 5++ as their best save. Like marines. The strat is also worse: you do no damage (tremor is only -1 to wound), you can't double tap with the strat and it only halves movement (tremor is halve move, advance and charge). You're saying the base gun is bad. It's not: there's a reason that 3 TFCs aren't uncommon. Of course, that's usually only Fists/IH, since they're not quite as good outside devs and without rr 1s/+1 dam, but TFC is probably the best general purpose ignores LoS gun in the game. An IH one beats out mortars and wyverns for anti-infantry. A fists TFC is about equal to HG for anti-tank. |
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Post by mule on Dec 10, 2019 16:39:47 GMT
The only "vitamin rich" supplement I've seen people have ridiculous issues with is IH, because it lends itself to a shooting army. The list people are having problems with isn't even in the top 5 for Atlanta open atm. RG is top right now and I haven't seen a SINGLE complaint about them on this forum. I feel like people have been overgeneralizing the power of SM - they are a force to be reckoned with yes. The gatekeeper list is a no brains shootout hurr durr play, what's new. But not every SM faction is equally powerful. And even the "powerful" one's don't ignore as many core rules as Knights do, and hence can be handled with good lists and smart play. Sneggy has been doing fine (not to be confused with easy) against these lists using GSC, I have had my measure of success against them too, as will most GSC players who actually know how to play and build their armies, because GSC was given tools to deal with problems. Now Nids have been given some tools to deal with these same problems. Guys. This problem is MORE SURMOUNTABLE THAN THE TRIPLE KNIGHT BANE. we can actually handle this problem. Put some context into it man. I'm getting so sick of every thread become a complain thread about why SM is so much better than us and GW only takes care of poster boys when 6 months ago SM didn't even register on the map. Yea they could give us more, but seriously cool it guys, rules parity is like a roulette. Stop treating it like a conspiracy and stop victimising yourself. Eh ravenguard are pretty mean too tbh. IH isn't necessarily the issue, they got nerfed quite hard they're still pretty unmovable, but it's honestly just SM, their saves, aura's and damage output. I agree that we have tools but a lot of our tools aren't entirely helpful vs the tools SM has. Auspex, Transhuman, TFC Lockdown, rerolls ontop of already consistent shots, high quality shots vs our no saves, fallback + rapid fire bolter shots. Etc. Pair that vs the fact that our army want's to be in melee, where the rules are the weakest compared to shooting, takes more skill to actually get into and do properly, and that SM have some very punchy units that match how punchy ours are, with us having worse saves just makes the match up very hard because we're not rewarded in any facet of the phases. We at least have more tools now, I'm just not entirely sure it's enough. That said. Auspex wouldn't be that scary if it happened after the psychic phase cause then we could cast the horror on something and have a malenthrope/venomthrope nearby to give them a -3 to shooting. But alas doesn't work that way. |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 10, 2019 17:02:20 GMT
RG is top right now and I haven't seen a SINGLE complaint about them on this forum. Um? Not sure where you're getting that from...Most recent week, 8 IH top 4s. 1 RG, 1 IF (and one soup with IH). 2 weeks ago, 7 IH (and 1 souped). 1 RG pure (and 2 souped). Wyvern gets more shots, but hits worse. Wyvern is a bit better with Cadian/Catachan, but only ~1 stealer with double tap. And TFC is ~20 pts cheaper and has more AP for things that aren't rocking a 5++ as their best save. Like marines. The strat is also worse: you do no damage (tremor is only -1 to wound), you can't double tap with the strat and it only halves movement (tremor is halve move, advance and charge). You're saying the base gun is bad. It's not: there's a reason that 3 TFCs aren't uncommon. Of course, that's usually only Fists/IH, since they're not quite as good outside devs and without rr 1s/+1 dam, but TFC is probably the best general purpose ignores LoS gun in the game. An IH one beats out mortars and wyverns for anti-infantry. A fists TFC is about equal to HG for anti-tank. Eh. It's 4d3 S5 -1ap 1damage, vs 4d6 S5 0AP 1 damage reroll all wounds with ignore cover, if you think that's good then ok. The cadian ones, if they want to break infantry, can always go +1 to hit but let's assume they dont want to, it's still 4+ rr1s vs 3+ rr1s, difference isnt big. The key thing here that makes them decent all rounders is a good strat, and Dev Doc for an additional -1ap to become -2ap. That's when it starts to get a bit dangerous, *for other marines*. Either way, whether you feel they are great, good, or bad, it doesnt matter - what matters here is the practical impact, which is it exists, this isnt new, we've adapted to this (please do not swear) before. We just need to adapt to it again. Ref RG, its the current Atlanta Open, Top 5 is an SM mixed, Aeldari, Tau, RG, and Chaos. It's a 9 game tournament, and the last day is single elimination. The point is not that IH is or isnt in the top 5 - it's the fact that RG has made it in there, when no one was complaining about RG being good or strong or broken or etc etc etc. People need to stop complaining that they cant play suboptimal things against good lists. It's a strategy game, its chess, are you really going to complain if you've built your chess table on one side to be full of only pawns or only rooks? It's when we DONT have tools that things are an actual problem, like how there werent any tools for us to deal with Knights. |
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