How do we deal with the New Knights?

[kazetanade]

Yea, that'd be the one.

Food for thoughtful discussion- apparently Triple Flyrants took top 5 in a recent major ITC event? Which goes against the grain of what I'd been preaching but I'm pretty happy to be wrong on this regard.

That said, double Knights with all out scoring have double the firepower and double the resilience and double the melee prowress. If triple HT could do so monumentally well, wouldnt double Knights do extremely well too?

[acehilator]

Can't comment on that, I don't play competitive myself, but I know that ITC is not being played in Germany.

Not sure if double Knight lists are going to be a thing though, you need three non-Armiger Knights in a Superheavy detachment to get CP from that detachment.

For supporting roles mono Knights in a Superheavy Auxilary detachment, or three Armiger Helverins might see some use I guess (IG/AdMech armies would maybe want that).

[harleyxjguy]

Jun 10, 2018 16:44:39 GMT kazetanade said:

Yea, that'd be the one.

Food for thoughtful discussion- apparently Triple Flyrants took top 5 in a recent major ITC event? Which goes against the grain of what I'd been preaching but I'm pretty happy to be wrong on this regard.

That said, double Knights with all out scoring have double the firepower and double the resilience and double the melee prowress. If triple HT could do so monumentally well, wouldnt double Knights do extremely well too?

Kind of a bad comparison.

Three HT is like 400 points less then two Knights.

[Kitane]

That IK rule about super-heavy detachments is strange. The Knight Lance rule is clear about Armigers not counting for the CP bonus, but the codex itself describes an example army of 1 Dominus, 1 Questoris, and 1 Armiger class knights as a battle-forged Super-heavy Detachment that gives 3 CP.

Either the Knight Lance is an optional upgrade over the standard Super-heavy Detachment or the codex contradicts itself.

[remington]

I have a dream..

A bit dramatic start but there are one (not cheap and not easy) thing that destroys a knight in a single cc turn w/ adrenaline surge. Yes, it costs 3 cp's and the unit is not cheap (306 pts!).
Enter Hydra tyrant guards w/ goods (ag's, ts's and ofc crushing claws)! On avarage, they put 30 wounds w/ adrenaline surge (15 wounds without stratagem, and not counting them 6's on to wound rolls for extra damage).
The problem is, there are no 100% quarentee to get these guys in (8" charge and you better save that one cp for a re roll). You have to ds them in for sure. So, either a tyrannocyte taxi or a trygon taxi. Neither are cheap but at least the trygon can make sure that you put that knight down. So it is going to be 306 + 173 points to make all this to happen. A bit expensive.. but there it is. Although, if you pull this off, it is a bit cheaper than the biggest knight.

I have been thinking over for this combo for a long time and after knight codex arrival this might be a solution, not the solution. But if you pull this over and destroy a knight quite easily, rest be assured that these guys are getting big retaliation from the rest of knights. I haven't test this yet but I think that I have to soon because my friends loves his knights (he has only one + 2 armigers).
But anyone up for the task to test this?

[acehilator]

Kitane: I would chalk that up to a mistake made by the person who wrote the description text on that page with the example. Or they changed the Superheavy detachment rule after the text got written, and nobody caught the error afterwards.

[N.I.B.]

I guess knights can be good, if piloted by a good player. I faced them yesterday, he had 3 big knights, 2 small knights and some assorted AdMech units. Spearhead deployment. I tabled him in turn 3.

[remington]

Jun 10, 2018 19:45:48 GMT N.I.B. said:

I guess knights can be good, if piloted by a good player. I faced them yesterday, he had 3 big knights, 2 small knights and some assorted AdMech units. Spearhead deployment. I tabled him in turn 3.

Your armylist?

[remington]

A quick add. You could use pheromone trail to deliver these tyrant guards. 45 pts + 1 cp is not bad and/or too expensive. I am going to try that one. So, to add all this up, it would cost to you 351 pts + 4 cp's (maybe one more if you have to re roll for a charge) to put one knight down. Not bad at all imo!

[N.I.B.]

Jun 10, 2018 19:53:31 GMT remington said:

Jun 10, 2018 19:45:48 GMT N.I.B. said:

I guess knights can be good, if piloted by a good player. I faced them yesterday, he had 3 big knights, 2 small knights and some assorted AdMech units. Spearhead deployment. I tabled him in turn 3.

Your armylist?

Kraken battalion
Flyrant warlord, 2 pairs of Deathspitters, Chameleonic Mutation, Instinctive Killer
Flyrant, Deathspitters, Monsterous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands
Flyrant, Deathspitters, Monsterous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands

19 Genestealers, Scything Talons, 4 Acid Maw
19 Genestealers, Scything Talons, 4 Acid Maw
17 Hormagaunts

Kraken vanguard
The Swarmlord

6 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Venomthropes

[wcgnidz]

Jun 10, 2018 16:34:41 GMT acehilator said:

kazetanade :

I see. House Raven is the movement-based house (Heavy weapons become Assault when advancing, fire Assault weapons without penalty), coupled with the Landstrider WL trait (6" bubble of +2 to Advance and Charge rolls) that stuff becomes scary fast. And Knights have a "Charge after Advance" stratagem, it's 2CP but still. Sound the horns, T1 charge is a go, lol.


autoxidation :

Yes, and?

Autoxidation mentions what he did in reference to the Knight Lancer possible 2++ interaction. 

[kazetanade]

Jun 10, 2018 19:19:14 GMT harleyxjguy said:

Jun 10, 2018 16:44:39 GMT kazetanade said:

Yea, that'd be the one.

Food for thoughtful discussion- apparently Triple Flyrants took top 5 in a recent major ITC event? Which goes against the grain of what I'd been preaching but I'm pretty happy to be wrong on this regard.

That said, double Knights with all out scoring have double the firepower and double the resilience and double the melee prowress. If triple HT could do so monumentally well, wouldnt double Knights do extremely well too?

Kind of a bad comparison.

Three HT is like 400 points less then two Knights.

I'd say you have to consider the type of output a Knight has over a HT as well. That HT is armed with 12 shots of S6 AP0 and 4A of MRC, or 24 shots OF S6 AP0 (or possibly d3 shots of HVC). A Knight costs 500 odd (which is 300pts more), but has 12 shots of S6 AP-2 2D, 2d6 of Battle Cannon, and a further 12A of reasonable combat. T8 and double the wounds as well; You cant lose a Knight to two HTs, but you can lose 2 HTs to a Knight (if you're unlucky). Focus Fire should take down at least 1 HT a turn, although thats good since its a lot of firepower being absorbed by the Flyrants.

I mean, the greatest complaint about Flyrants is that they move fast (Knights do), and they're resilient (apparently Knights are too if the thread tone is to be believed), and they're undercosted for output (unsure, but i think Knights with the pts drop may be as good for pts:dmg:EH.). It felt like a valid comparison although the build would be of course different, as a Knight list has less choices of threats to play.

N.I.B. did you feel it was a player issue or that Knights in general aren't as big a deal as everyone is making?

If i can be honest I'm still scarred from Triple Knight lists from back in 7th ed, playing in a EW setting they are ridiculously strong. The fact that triple Flyrants can take a high placing in a major ITC event questions my assumptions of big models giving away scoring points too easily, so naturally the consideration should go to the biggest models around.

[wormlord666]

I know knight can walk over infantry in fall back, but still, I’m thinking it would be possible to lock them up. (Can the armigers do this?) With a monster locked up, and an infantry unit surrounding 1” away, with three monsters/swarms, with Big enough hordes so he can’t move enough to get out.

Is this possible? What say you who faced them?

[gigasnail]

what you're suggesting has a lot of moving parts.

[wormlord666]

Jun 11, 2018 6:31:43 GMT gigasnail said:

what you're suggesting has a lot of moving parts.

Yes, I suppose so. But I’m not looking for this as the ultimate solution but more as one more option in dealing with them, using our strenght: number of models.