How do we deal with the New Knights?

[kazetanade]

I didnt see melee, i saw "anti-vehicle" and forgot the rest. =P

Its pretty amazing they're still better than shockguard. I thought shockguard be better than that....

[xenomorph85]

Hive Guard Impalers, knights don't have amazing OLOS firepower. Not possible on all tables, you need GW ruins with bottom lvl counts as los blocking.

Hive Guard shockcannons, deep strike double shoot. Have to wait until turn 2 possibly though.

Toxin Sacs stealers, these are twice as good as normal stealers at killing T8. Regular stealers don't do the job.

Mortal wounds generators like biovores and smites will their work.

Some buffed up purestrain stealers. Get the no overwatch spell and buff their strength and attacks together with the +1 to hit from Primus , we are talking 20 wounds on a knight on avg.

[wcgnidz]

I feel like im most afraid of the smaller knights with those 2x 2d3 autocannon things. At 170 pts, 5++ moving like a custodes jetbike, and fixed damage 3 with decent AP at 60"......like a detachment of these guys alone can readily be fire support for a lot of armies.

Like the big guy with the harpoon is scary undoubtedly. But 3 of those autocannon things will put some heavy murder on MC's pretty easily.

[mattblowers]

Jun 8, 2018 12:23:52 GMT wcgnidz said:

I feel like im most afraid of the smaller knights with those 2x 2d3 autocannon things. At 170 pts, 5++ moving like a custodes jetbike, and fixed damage 3 with decent AP at 60"......like a detachment of these guys alone can readily be fire support for a lot of armies.

I love the helvigers! I keep almost pulling the trigger on buying 6, but instead I doubled down on getting all my 'nids painted. Not like I need another army anyway. They are definately good though. I think 6-9 of those puppies will do some work (they come in squadrons of 3) but they need a CP farm to shine.

At the end of the day, they function similarly (more range and consistent damage but not LOS shennanigans or ignoring cover) to hive guard and I have enough of those.

Jun 8, 2018 6:31:54 GMT autoxidation said:

I never felt like Hive Guard were particularly good in melee, but to each their own.

Never is a long time friend. Last edition I loved spamming the things and giving them adrenal glands and toxin sacs. I didn't really want them in combat but they hit pretty hard when they had to. Really caught a lot of opponents off guard with them. Of course, back then, simply not folding and losing by turn 2 was enough to shock someone with a 'nid army.

[nidzy]

Jun 8, 2018 13:35:57 GMT mattblowers said:

Jun 8, 2018 12:23:52 GMT wcgnidz said:

I feel like im most afraid of the smaller knights with those 2x 2d3 autocannon things. At 170 pts, 5++ moving like a custodes jetbike, and fixed damage 3 with decent AP at 60"......like a detachment of these guys alone can readily be fire support for a lot of armies.

I love the helvigers! I keep almost pulling the trigger on buying 6, but instead I doubled down on getting all my 'nids painted. Not like I need another army anyway. They are definately good though. I think 6-9 of those puppies will do some work (they come in squadrons of 3) but they need a CP farm to shine.

At the end of the day, they function similarly (more range and consistent damage but not LOS shennanigans or ignoring cover) to hive guard and I have enough of those.

I bought 4 warglaives at about 30 bucks a model and I regret it because what I really want to run are a bunch of the helverns. That gun is just so good. I think my early knight look is going to be a valiant rolling with warglaives and backed up by 2 questoris knights but I am working on getting the heavy weapons teams to be able to use my neophytes as a guard battalion for that CP farm and am going to probably end up with 2 boxes of the helvern kit for a longer distance shooty look with a guard screen.

[wormlord666]

The knight can’t move over models unless it falls back, right? So you can block its movement with screen. Otherwise, smite, Horror, hive guards and monsterous Rending claws mayby can help.

GSC psychics seems like a temping option

[gigasnail]

You can block their movement, yes. Then they shoot you and stomp the (please do not swear) out of your screen and it dies but that's what it's there for.

[mule]

BIOVORES BIOVORES BIOVORES. 6 of them is 300 points. Put them out of synapse dump 3 shots onto each knight each turn. Block movement.

Take the map and points. Kill the guard detatchment that theyll inevitably take.

[acehilator]

Not sure if I am buying into Biovores considering average range for Knight weaponry is 36". May be funny to block in a Valiant.

So sure we have tools, but so does everybody when tailoring. Still, if you are running a TAC list you are pretty much screwed. Running just one or maybe two of our available counters is not going to cut it against a Knight list with a proper setup. On the other hand, if YT batreps are any indication, people seem not be able to do that, lol. But I still have to see a Knight army lose on YT after the Codex release.

[mule]

Knights still need LOS. Mortal wounds are more valuable against them. Lock it down from being able to move and take the board. They're point sinking into singular models. Just avoid them as long as possible and get as many points as possible.

That is the way you use a TAC list, because Biovores are valuable against literally every list, yes they suck point for point damage but the ability to prevent things from moving up the board is where they shine and what they're used for. You don't need to kill them just get enough points to win.

[kazetanade]

Triple Knight should be laughably bad in ITC and Maelstrom but granted they should be great at EW.

I think it goes without saying that HG are mandatory, whether as Impalers or Shock. Double tapping them takes a Knight down a bracket. Taking down 1 K nigjt a turn is actually huge vs a K night army. Those new ones with the autocannon though...

Biovores only sort of work. 6 will stop 1 dead inn its tracks, noir sure if 3 could do it.

[gigasnail]

It's also 300 points. In an all comers list? Probably a no-go. As tailoring vs knights? Eh, maybe sure.

[acehilator]

Jun 9, 2018 18:35:14 GMT kazetanade said:

Triple Knight should be laughably bad in ITC and Maelstrom but granted they should be great at EW.

I think it goes without saying that HG are mandatory, whether as Impalers or Shock. Double tapping them takes a Knight down a bracket. Taking down 1 K nigjt a turn is actually huge vs a K night army. Those new ones with the autocannon though...

Biovores only sort of work. 6 will stop 1 dead inn its tracks, noir sure if 3 could do it.

With the point reductions, you are looking at five Knights (two Armiger) or four Knights (one Armiger) + obligatory 200 points IG batallion, which is obviously far superior.

Double tapping 6x Impaler HG running as Kronos is barely enough to bracket a regular Knight (12.3 damage if my math is correct) if just using his regular 5++, so no way to do it against 4++ (9.32).

And then there is a high chance that you opponent runs as House Hawkshroud with the "double hitpoints to determine stats" bonus, so you need to do 18 wounds to a regular Knight to bracket it.

[calbanite]

Oh hey look at that

Another big machine thing for a Scythed Hierodule to nom

[kazetanade]

Jun 9, 2018 20:28:47 GMT acehilator said:

Jun 9, 2018 18:35:14 GMT kazetanade said:

Triple Knight should be laughably bad in ITC and Maelstrom but granted they should be great at EW.

I think it goes without saying that HG are mandatory, whether as Impalers or Shock. Double tapping them takes a Knight down a bracket. Taking down 1 K nigjt a turn is actually huge vs a K night army. Those new ones with the autocannon though...

Biovores only sort of work. 6 will stop 1 dead inn its tracks, noir sure if 3 could do it.

With the point reductions, you are looking at five Knights (two Armiger) or four Knights (one Armiger) + obligatory 200 points IG batallion, which is obviously far superior.

Double tapping 6x Impaler HG running as Kronos is barely enough to bracket a regular Knight (12.3 damage if my math is correct) if just using his regular 5++, so no way to do it against 4++ (9.32).

And then there is a high chance that you opponent runs as House Hawkshroud with the "double hitpoints to determine stats" bonus, so you need to do 18 wounds to a regular Knight to bracket it.

Why is it a 4++? I thought they maintained their 5++ invul save.

I know local Knight players will run it much more aggressively so i don't expect to see Hawkshroud, but its a valid consideration.

I dont think it changes that being able to take a Knight down a bracket each turn will be very key to surviving and winning a game vs them,

With the scoring vs titanic, big game hunter, characters, and the other types, i think they will be bad for ITC no matter how scary they look because of the points bleeding and the relative lack of map control for objectives.

I considered 3 Knights for 1750 points level because i heard ITC events are moving to 1750. 2k should run 5 Knights comfortably and honestly trying to butt heads vs 5 Knights is extremely daunting.