How do we deal with the New Knights?
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Post by sidedisc on Jul 3, 2018 15:59:00 GMT
They also give points for monster hunter and titan slayer. Is Monster Hunter different from the Big Game Hunter secondary? I haven’t seen a Monster Hunter in the ITC pack. Our group just started playing ITC champion mission packs as they seem better than Maelstorm Cards. Cards are way too random... only had about 3 games so still getting used to it. Also, it was my understanding that certain units can give up multiple secondaries. So if I kill a knight, I can score both Titan Slayer and Big Game Hunter. Or Headhunter + Big Game Hunter if they were characters. Does kingslayer stack? (Apart from Titanslayer I noticed that ruling). |
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Post by mattblowers on Jul 3, 2018 17:33:46 GMT
They also give points for monster hunter and titan slayer. Is Monster Hunter different from the Big Game Hunter secondary? I haven’t seen a Monster Hunter in the ITC pack. It's probably Big Game Hunter, I keep defaulting to the old terms. Sorry about the confusion. You cannot get multiple secondaries from one target at the same time. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 3, 2018 18:51:09 GMT
I was not aware you couldnt get multiple secondaries. Doesnt killing a Flyrant give you point towards : BGH, Headhunter, Kingslayer?
Surely a Knight is the same. They're just much more srupidly hard to kill and hurt in both shooting and melee phases.
Theoretically a standard Knight list should have around 4 Characters (IG Fishermen combo + 2 Knight Characters at least), so i suppose you could pick Head Hunter if you're confident killing them. Kingslayer on Fisherman or on a Knight would work if you killed a Knight, and finish the last 2 Knights 16W each for max TitanSlayer. Could work?
I'm still thinking though. How do you survive the next 2 if you can only hurt 1 a turn?
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Post by mattblowers on Jul 3, 2018 19:47:18 GMT
I was not aware you couldnt get multiple secondaries. Doesnt killing a Flyrant give you point towards : BGH, Headhunter, Kingslayer? Surely a Knight is the same. They're just much more srupidly hard to kill and hurt in both shooting and melee phases. Theoretically a standard Knight list should have around 4 Characters (IG Fishermen combo + 2 Knight Characters at least), so i suppose you could pick Head Hunter if you're confident killing them. Kingslayer on Fisherman or on a Knight would work if you killed a Knight, and finish the last 2 Knights 16W each for max TitanSlayer. Could work? I'm still thinking though. How do you survive the next 2 if you can only hurt 1 a turn? They changed that. I have the 6/28/2018 v1.11 Champions missions open "An enemy Character selected for Kingslayer may not also generate points for Titan Slayers even if that model has the Titanic keyword" So apparently they only fixed it for Knights, not for us. The tournament I was at didn't allow any multiples, but it's not in the player pack. |
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Post by sidedisc on Jul 3, 2018 21:57:45 GMT
They changed that. I have the 6/28/2018 v1.11 Champions missions open I could only find the Nov 2017 v1.9 mission packs on Frontline Gaming (unless I’m being dumb) Is there a link to the most updated version? Also, pretty sure Hive Tyrants gave up multiple secondaries hence why they had a poor showing at LVO and ITC mission events. |
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Post by mattblowers on Jul 3, 2018 22:44:47 GMT
They changed that. I have the 6/28/2018 v1.11 Champions missions open I could only find the Nov 2017 v1.9 mission packs on Frontline Gaming (unless I’m being dumb) Is there a link to the most updated version? Also, pretty sure Hive Tyrants gave up multiple secondaries hence why they had a poor showing at LVO and ITC mission events. Here it is. It's the ITC Champion missions. link |
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Post by hiveminded on Jul 3, 2018 23:26:06 GMT
He had a galliant, one regular shooty Knight with the gatling gun, and one of the new large knights. Killed the galliant and the regular knight bottom of turn one. Took me until the bottom of turn four to kill the big knight. Needed turn five to finish off the remaining IG units. Used a combination of things: - hive guard - lots of smite (four smites and a psychic scream per turn)...also used the horror to help neutralize his big knight’s shooting - lots of devourers w/ BL peppering wounds - genestealers and a broodlord finishing one of them off in close combat - had a magus drop in turn one, mind control his big knight, and shoot the harpoon (10 damage), four melta guns, one of the single use missiles, and the big 3d6 S7 2 damage flamer into his gallant...was beautiful. If my opponent had had better dice, it would have been a closer game. As it was, I won 31-16...ITC tourney missions. Sounds like it went ideally. I shot one of the big knights for 2 rounds and did exactly zero wounds through the 3++. Now he did roll hot, but if they aren't taking the 2+ armour and 4++ (3++ with rotating shields) then their list needs some help. I really am shocked that you could kill 2 knights in 1 turn. GSC definately are a problem for knights with mind control. Or maybe I just suck against knights.  Yeah, it definitely helps if the dice rolls go your way. With a little luck, mind control can easily drop 10 wounds on a knight when it goes off....the harpoon by itself does 10 damage if they fail their save. Each melta gun can do up to 6 more. Then there is the 3d6 flamer that does 2 damage per wound. Then you toss in another 8-10 wounds from smite/psychic scream and a regular knight is nearly dead. The re-roll 1s from neurothropes really helps to mitigate the increasing level for casting smite repeatedly...I always save my neurothropes for last. Finish him off with some mixed shooting (devourers, venom cannons, etc). Then, focus the hive guard on a second knight. Single minded annihilation to hit him again. Then assault the second knight. That's basically the formula I used to drop two knights round one. Yes, my opponent failed some saves...but it is a dice game afterall. Keep in mind that your opponent can't rotate ion shields on more than one knight. Save your big guns to the end. Throw some small weapons out first (heavy venom cannon, etc.), force your opponent to choose whether he is going to use rotate ion shields. If he does, then you can target a different knight with your big gun units. Knight players also spend CPs like mad. So they can't afford to rotate ion shields every phase. Even if you don't kill a knight, you can greatly neuter its effectiveness with the horror and/or mass hypnosis. If your army has a built in -1 to hit (malanthrope, etc.), then the horror means he's hitting you on -2. That means a bracketed knight is hitting on 6s. Toss in a mass hypnosis and he's hitting on 7s. I used the horror on the big knight and, flamer aside, his shooting really wasn't all that scary anymore. |
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Post by wormlord666 on Jul 6, 2018 8:13:33 GMT
I played a knightlist and got seriously beaten. He had two helverins, one warglaive and one crusader. They were backed up by Mefiston and smashhammercaptain and some assasins (2antipsykers and one cc).
I played kraken flyrants and stealers and jorm dakkafexes and hiveguards.
He outranged me, put his knight in infiltrate via som knighthouse rule, and before I Could get to him he shot me to pieces. The culexus assasins effectively stopped my psychics.
Really don’t see how I Could beat this without extreme listtayloring that will be useless againts other things...
Mayby hide and play for points and hope for a draw.
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Post by killercroc on Jul 6, 2018 12:31:11 GMT
I played a knightlist and got seriously beaten. He had two helverins, one warglaive and one crusader. They were backed up by Mefiston and smashhammercaptain and some assasins (2antipsykers and one cc). I played kraken flyrants and stealers and jorm dakkafexes and hiveguards. He outranged me, put his knight in infiltrate via som knighthouse rule, and before I Could get to him he shot me to pieces. The culexus assasins effectively stopped my psychics. Really don’t see how I Could beat this without extreme listtayloring that will be useless againts other things... Mayby hide and play for points and hope for a draw. Honestly when your opponent is building his army using the best parts of multiple codex to get all the benefits list tailor away. He's showing he think's it's perfectly acceptable to build a list not around fluff or any neutral army design but rather the most powerful combination he can get. Just do the same, if anything build as big of a dick list as possible to rub it in their face. Surprisingly enough Shockguard are really good against Knights so you might want to try a squad of those and see how it goes. |
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Post by afewveiws on Jul 6, 2018 18:57:27 GMT
I played a knightlist and got seriously beaten. He had two helverins, one warglaive and one crusader. They were backed up by Mefiston and smashhammercaptain and some assasins (2antipsykers and one cc). I played kraken flyrants and stealers and jorm dakkafexes and hiveguards. He outranged me, put his knight in infiltrate via som knighthouse rule, and before I Could get to him he shot me to pieces. The culexus assasins effectively stopped my psychics. Really don’t see how I Could beat this without extreme listtayloring that will be useless againts other things... Mayby hide and play for points and hope for a draw. Honestly when your opponent is building his army using the best parts of multiple codex to get all the benefits list tailor away. He's showing he think's it's perfectly acceptable to build a list not around fluff or any neutral army design but rather the most powerful combination he can get. Just do the same, if anything build as big of a dick list as possible to rub it in their face. Surprisingly enough Shockguard are really good against Knights so you might want to try a squad of those and see how it goes. Except the knight list above could do well against any enemy. You list tailoring against it doesn't mean you'll beat it with a list you bring to a tournament. |
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Post by purestrain on Jul 6, 2018 19:27:11 GMT
Kronos guard are so much better if you aren't moving about with them! But shock guard are the bread and butter of Levi anti armor fighting.
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Post by horm on Jul 6, 2018 23:16:47 GMT
My idea for dealing with knights is toxin sacs genestealers. Then acid blood for the retaliation. It’s not going to drop a knight by itself but it’ll do a big chunck of wounds that ignore those crazy invunerable saves. I personally think we’re in a strong position against them considering other armies that don’t have much in the way of close combat.
Might be worth noting:
Just 1 hour ago finished played a 1k game with my knights (2x Armigers, 1 paladin) and some scions vs Eldar (2 serpeants, hemlock, wraithgaurd and some other stuff). Opponent knew I was bringing knights (he’s my regular opponent) and thew the towel in turn 2. He was focusing on my big knight which i think is a mistake (it’s got the firepower of basically a single Leman russ) and was able to keep it stocked with 3+ invuns the whole game. If he had focused down the Armigers, I would have been left with a glorified Leman russ for shooting and still the same output on the knight as I had (there’s a 1 cp strat to keep it on full bs so a single knight list needs to be completely destroyed before it makes much difference).
Honestly, I think beating knights is the same as any army. You need to know what makes them tick.
My current advice (not an expert by any stretch but just my thoughts):
Get them in cc, they’ve got scary output but lose a massive amount of defence.
Focus on the little guys first.
Trick shot your firepower to draw out rotate ion shields.
Take out the non-warlord first
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Post by mattblowers on Jul 10, 2018 16:50:42 GMT
Play a bunch of games. Knights are rough but not unbeatable. Their weaknesses will start to show once you get a few games under your belt.
A culexis or two to completely neuter your pyschic phase should be something that you expect to see in every Imperium list moving forward.
My issue with shock guard is that they need to be close and once they are touched they end up being useless. On top of that they do get the MW on 4-5, and D3 on 6+, but I'm afraid they are worse than similar options we see from Harliquins/Drukhari.
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Post by dan3dim on Jul 10, 2018 17:28:51 GMT
Imperial Knight player myself, I did play against Knight and play as knight too.
I can tell you that Acidy blood is scary and it is even worse if you put them on Catalyst.. every time they lose wound, it do count as acidy blood before you made roll for Catalyst.
Knight melee have very high damage output, more acidy blood in return.
I hate it.
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Post by purestrain on Jul 10, 2018 18:15:36 GMT
Imperial Knight player myself, I did play against Knight and play as knight too. I can tell you that Acidy blood is scary and it is even worse if you put them on Catalyst.. every time they lose wound, it do count as acidy blood before you made roll for Catalyst. Knight melee have very high damage output, more acidy blood in return. I hate it. If a model is slain??? Not suffers a wound?? Or is my memory terrible |
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