Kaze's Theorycrafting Station [Nids Gorgon Gaunts]

[almostmercury]

General meta statement against Eldar. I actually think Jorm might be a contender

[kazetanade]

Jormungandr *is* a contender. It depends on what you're doing with the rest of the list. This isnt Hydra or Gorgon lol.

FINALLY FIXED MY damn FORMATTING. It looks so much neater now. Thanks for the suggestion of using spoilers almostmercury.

I am going to give the gunline list which I have fondly named Fire in Shadows (Fire being gunfire, Shadows being SitW and The Deepest Shadow) a few more tweaks before hanging it up. Overall it's not bad on performance - it's got hard counters that cant be dislodged due to no reliance on melee, but I'd need some big hoops to make those melee work too. If I can fix the problem with Character Protection (either via Beta Character rules, OR by being able to get rid of tanks like Magnus and Mortarion early on while denying a flank position), then the list will be solid against everything barr a heavy artillery list. I wish I could fit GSC magii in, I really want their spells which will help deal with stupid power spikes like the Shadowsword/Hellhammers, but every list I try to make I cant find enough points to squeeze 3 Magii into. Frustrating. I hope I find a way to do it - I dont feel like removing an Exocrine for it is a smart proposition. But Then there's nothing to remove...

[kazetanade]

Ok, Fire in the Shadows is probably done. I've swapped out the Genestealers for another RuptureFex, and a fat Termagant unit for wrap or objective sitting.

So now its looking like;

2 Kraken Flyrants, 1 Hybrid 1 Dakka
3 Rippers
1 Kronos Flyrant, Dakka
1 Neurothrope
1 x 28 termagants
2 rippers
1 full HG
1 Exocrine
2 RuptureFexes

I suspect infantry problems await it in the future but it will decimate tank lists and chew things through the front quite consistently. It also lets me leave my Flyrants on the ground more safely.

I did some reading in my own thread for previous games - the alphadrop list never really alphadropped well in the end, either having LOS blocked or coming in piecemeal due to area blockage/ perceived threats. In fact the only local alphadrop list I've heard doing well is a 6 Valkyrie mega drop. I need to work on MTO - multiple threat saturation practices again, my recent lists seem to lack MTO completely. Too much tax.

Also having to balance wanting Kronos and other stuff like a greedy (please do not swear).

[kazetanade]

2nd time posting this. Great msiclicks, whole post disappears. Grm. 

In lieu of having 3 Dakkaflyrants, the Termagants are moved back to 3 x 10. They've done alright and arent usually killed off at all, although ITC scoring offers up points for killing them I doubt they'll offer all that many. 1 or 2 at most.

Also to not get shoehorned, I'm looking at an alternative ITC list that could be played competitively. Now, Carnifexen are in a very unique position in our codex where they do not offer ANY secondaries at all. So I'm looking to bump the Carnifex Stampede concept to 2k for that. The catch of course is that we dont see Carnifexen in the ITC games probably for a reason - they probably suck somehow. Easy to kill, short ranged weapons, quite cheap but not exactly cheap with the standard required upgrades. I dont know how good they'll be - DakkaFexes I think will be (please do not swear) terrible due to the short range, HVCs might be something but relying on melee to make up points means GG anyway. So I got 2 concepts going:

1. 6 Carnifexen with mixed weapons ( 3x double Dev / Acid Maw, 3 x Dev/HVC/Enhanced Senses), backed by HG, an Acidfex, OOE, and GSC with Magii and 9man Neophytes w/ Mortars. The only secondary I give up full points is Headhunter, but OOE and the 2 Neuros are pretty damn hard to kill, so the only easy ones are the Magii. Problem would be if I go 2nd, and have to face overwhelming firepower T1 that just shreds all my Fexes to death. I dont have enough MTO in my list (a recurrent problem in all my lists since 8th ed dropped), I dont think the Acidfex will pull all that much attention off of them. Scoring shouldnt be an issue - Rippers + Neophytes should cover ITC scoring conventions enough to get Recon, and deny the map objective quite often. My main problem is getting the bugger Fexes into position to do damage. Dark Reapers are also still a problem because of 48" being too far away for me to ever reach, unless I ignore other things and just run into position to unload HVCs into them. Even Hive Guard should do pretty decent with an Onslaught cast on them, but outside of that I'm at a slight loss. 

2. 3 Carnifexen with double dev/Acid Maw, backed by HG, OOE, and a Kraken Battalion with Swarmlord and 19 Genestealers, with 30 Termagants as solid wrap for everybody (and all of Kraken covered by Venomthropes obviously). I dont like this list because it gives up 2 secondaries for free at 3 points each, but it is definitely better in terms of MTO and having the potential to run up and tag AM artilltery, or run up and tag Dark Reapers. I can also hide the Genestealers in the nodes if the Dark Reapers are on the table (can shred the Genestealers T1 because no LOS blocker) or in the webway (hence cant be charged T1), depending on what I'm scared of. I feel like the list lacks punch, but with OOE / SL / 19 GS / HG, that's obviously not the case. 

I've not made up my mind on which route or things to take into consideration. Does anyone have any ideas or things they'd like to bring up or point out? 

And Yes, list 1 is actually lacking wrap. I've got rippers and that's about it. Unless the enemy has some hard dedicated melee, I dont think wrap is necessary since all the fexes can actually punch their way out of a wet paper bag. 

Hive Bahamut mattblowers No One almostmercury would like some of you guys feedback.

autoxidation I havent actually ever seen any list discussions from you before although there's a lot of rules/mechanics and number crunches. I'd like to hear your thoughts as well on that.

[autoxidation]

I don't really know the ins and outs of min-maxing ITC objectives so I don't typically give advice. I mostly play games based on the rulebook or chapter approved missions, with lists being more competitive than not but not min-maxed for a scenario.

If you're looking for a different example of what could work that hasn't really been discussed here, iNcontroL won a GT with a somewhat unorthodox list but he is a very strong player. It was discussed over on reddit.

Here's the BCP results for it.

On your list feedback, I'm really not a fan of running double devs without enhanced senses. -1 to hit is all too common and with a base BS4+ it is brutal. Turn 1 they should be able to advance and fire with a decent BS too in order to get at a target.

[No One]

Thoughts:
List 1. The design concept sort of works: build to deny and play a longer game with the fexes (durability>output). But...I don't think the durability is enough, and the damage is only decent against armour and is short ranged against infantry. I think it could maybe work against some armies? Except...

Dark Reapers are also still a problem because of 48" being too far away for me to ever reach, unless I ignore other things and just run into position to unload HVCs into them.

Yeah. The list that won LVO (I believe) had 18 reapers, 10 of which could double tap. 18 reapers (pretending tempest are normal ) is basically going to wipe 2 fexes a turn. And, bar a complete stuff up on their part, going to be able to do so uncontested for at least 2 turns (maybe only 1 going 2nd: I doubt it). That's before double tap/guide/jinx/doom and ignoring the rest of the army. Basically, reapers ignore fexes main survivability buff (-1), have the range to stay uncontested, and the firepower to just brutally murder things. (Reapers are, of course, a high benchmark: but they're also meta, so you need to benchmark against).

You could maybe fight them on objectives? I think you'd have strong objectives control with neos/rippers to take, and dakkafexes to push stuff off. I think this is where it'd be strong against other armies: if you could take midfield with the fexes and just sit tight, get kill a unit, objectives and +1 objectives per turn, recon/some other secondary and if they can't really score? But if they can take out the fexes quick...*shrug*.

As to the actual list...As above, I'm not entirely sure about maw vs enhanced (I can see it, just not sure ). I'd go spitters over devs for the HVC though: the range is worth it for them: it lets you sit back behind and still shoot, shoot different targets and/or not advance T1 and still shoot both guns. Playing devs/HVC on my fex, most of the time it's either advance and cop -1 on HVC, or not shoot the devs, and it's not uncommon for that to happen for more than one turn (if you're wondering why I play devs rather than spitters, laziness/WYSIWYG ).

The acidfex seems a bit of an odd choice maybe? You've already got short range dakka with the devs: I mean, it does offer you a slightly different target (more anti-tank/heavy infantry than just straight anti-infantry), just seems a bit odd when longer range is an issue and you're building to deny secondaries (though it is only giving one?) and for survivability (t-fex is survivable, just a different sort with T8 vs -1). I mean, rupture feels like a better mesh in some ways, filling the long range anti-tank hole that you sort of have, but then you've got major issues with just getting shot/degradation .

Oddly enough thinking about it, I'm not entirely sure about the place of OOE in the list: namely, it wants to hide behind stuff. Which in this army, is entirely shooty (there is cc weapons, but they're more for 'getting charged'). In theory, he gives strong counter charge element. But, OOE is actually very vulnerable in melee, and I'd be concerned about enemy cc elements having an invul (likely) good enough to just tank an OOE counter charge. Does have a decent volume of attacks though, soo...just food for thought?



Don't really have any thoughts on list 2.

[gigasnail]

i dunno how much longer reapers are going to be a problem though. i suspect they're going to get a high hard one right up the tailpipe come the march updates.

but, they're eldar, so who knows.

[No One]

True: but that's probably going to shake things up far more than just reapers (including probably some of our stuff). So design for current meta, which is reapers.

[gigasnail]

i dunno, what about tyranids do you think they're really going to shake up? i can't really see a lot. if anything there needs to be a few more price drops. update is in a month or less, no way to know until then.

[No One]

Dunno. They may do very little: but I'd say HG/flyrants/stealers are all plausible, or price drops making other things better shaking it up that way. I'd be surprised if nothing changed on our end: nothing big? Maybe, maybe not.

[gigasnail]

eh. nerfing/upping the points cost on the 3 most useful units in the codex would be a (please do not swear) tier idea. they're not unbalanced or under costed compared to other units in the meta, they're just good. nerf them significantly and they're back to junk status. price drops are still very appropriate for a number of our units (maleceptor, tox, etc) for all the usual reasons. i'd say neurothrope would be a legit candidate for the nerf bat but the smite nerf made that unnecessary. zoanthropes need a shooting ability independent of psychic powers now as well, but they won't get one anytime soon.

edit: not to say they won't do exactly that (i.e. nerf stealers, HG, and tyrants), just that it'd be stupid to.

[almostmercury]

Currently, I think a unit of Purestrains is one of the best units to fight Eldar. The Primus gets you there and I actually think the iconward is excellent with the relic. It gives 1/2 catalyst, 1/2 might, and reroll morale (no synapse), while the primus gives the +1 to hit.

I’ve been playing 1000 point games lately for an RTT I just attended and won. I’ll write up my thoughts in another thread.

I also think tunneling hive Guard are possibly our best shooting units in the game right now, which is where I’m going next.

[No One]

almostmercury said:

I actually think the iconward is excellent with the relic. It gives 1/2 catalyst, 1/2 might

Eh, I don't agree, for several reasons. 1: Iconward can't travel with the stealers+primus. So not only is he using his own CA dice and thus could end up in the completely wrong spot, he's very unlikely to get a 5/6 to be able to follow the purestrains (especially relevant on a 6, where you're often going to be wanting to make full use of that 8+D6 movement to get into their DZ, past ranger screens).
2. Tying into 1 very strongly: 6+++ is nice. 6+++ on a per model basis, with a 6" range is not. Unless he gets a high 5/6 on CA, he's not going to be in range of any stealers in combat: so if you want people with a 6+++, you're going to have to pull them out of combat, and then have enough so that killing them won't lose you the +1 S.
3. The 1/2 of might he gives is the worse part. It's actually pretty good against a lot of armies (*cough* marines), but basically useless against Eldar. S4->S5 makes no difference against T3 (infantry) or T7 (tanks). It's basically just their bikes/wraith stuff.
4. Cult have no 'relic' strats, so it requires making one of your Cult guys Warlord. When they're rather squishy and in your face (even magus is usually playing at 18" range, often sort of on his own): so it's much more likely to give up WL points, and the don't really have any useful WL traits to speak of (the new one has some really good niche uses, since heroic works even in combat and works anytime the opponent charges. But still niche to actually be 'good').

On top of that, it uses up reserves slots (may or may not be an issue depending on the rest of your list: but I know I'm usually sitting right at the 50% mark basically all the time), and takes up an HQ slot (could've been a magus).

Not going to dispute purestrain bomb being great: it's brutal if things go well.

[kazetanade]

I disagree with the purestrain bomb vs Eldar because of this thing called:

Forewarning Dark Reapers, that may or may not have Fortune / Guide / whatever other rerolls cast on them.

Purestrain bombs are a decent 2nd entry hit thing though, no arguments there. But that kind of necessitates you having a really strong foreground as well, and I havent built a list with both a strong reserves and a strong foreground yet. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is basically 5 Flyrants and HG on the ground and GSC reserves coming in next turn. I'm sure there are others, I just havent spent time thinking about it - most of my reserves concepts are really heavy punches T1, not a 2nd turn strike thing.

That relic is really good with MfB. S6 Purestrains, or S7 Habberrants - 100/24A hitting respective targets on 2s/3s and wounding on 2s is awesome for load of dice just decimating everything (in fact, the Habberants can almost decimate Daemon Primarchs. Almost.) Problem is keeping said Iconward in position since he doesnt have the purestrain's movements, and only affects a 6" bubble. Now if it was the old 12" bubble, we'd be cooking with gas.... but alas.

almostmercury I tested out the tunnelling Hive Guard! With shockcannons. And it performed pretty decently against the intended target. I'm considering playing both Shockguard and Impguards, because one does consistently all the time and the other really just wrecks all vehicles - I'd wager even things like Crawlers or Custodes LandRaiders. Gives you super tactical flexibility and you're not boned if someone comes along with no vehicles for shockguard to blow up. If you meant tunnelling Impguards then I'm not too certain where you're going with this.

In the first Fex list I somehow managed to squeeze in 30 Devilgants with Raveners, but bringing it down to 4 Fexes instead of 6 Fexes, so I have a pseudo-answer to Dark Reapers. 30 man strong without double tap is enough to eviscerate a Dark Reaper squad to the last man, assuming Alaitoc there will be like a last man or 2. Double-tapping finishes it even if they get Forewarned, and should be enough to severely cripple the unit if they had Protect on. Problem is what do I do with the other 9 man Dark Reapers that cost half of what I just threw down on the table to die. #reapersbackto30ppm

But really, is 4 Fexes enough to do what I want to do? I guess it should be, the real backer is OOE anyway. The Fexes are just there to absorb charges, shoot as they go across the table, and basically be the distraction HEY KILL ME FIRST OH LOOK I'M NOT THAT EASY TO KILL blob, but that really does neccessitate them to DO something impactful or they'll just get ignored since they dont give secondaries. Or if I leave them along too much they will just DIE, and waste 600+ points. ~_~

[No One]

kazetanade said:

so I have a pseudo-answer to Dark Reapers. 30 man strong without double tap is enough to eviscerate a Dark Reaper squad to the last man, assuming Alaitoc there will be like a last man or 2. Double-tapping finishes it even if they get Forewarned, and should be enough to severely cripple the unit if they had Protect on.

I don't know how effective it'd be at countering reapers: T1 you'd be screened out by rangers, maybe T2 as well by random stuff (serpents/hemlocks/whatever). Add to that fire and fade to get out of LoS/into transports and reflexes? Tough ask.