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Post by kazetanade on Dec 19, 2017 1:42:59 GMT
Dont need a screen when all you have is chaff units, 3++ characters and biovores sitting in the back. Or that's what my experience is so far. |
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Post by almostmercury on Dec 19, 2017 15:46:17 GMT
I think you’ll want a screen when some actual melee shows up.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 19, 2017 16:53:53 GMT
I think you’ll want a screen when some actual melee shows up. Any suggestions where and how to place them and where to cut points for them? I'm looking for a rough idea on how to play the screen with the list and how it's designed to work. I'm having a little trouble imagining it to be honest. At best I can imagine droping a 30 man Gargoyle squad down there at like 5" distance to block the charge on the first drop, it's a decent number of points I need to find from somewhere. Where do you think I could cut from? |
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Post by almostmercury on Dec 19, 2017 19:41:38 GMT
Well, I don't think a Broodlord is worth 1 unit of stealers so you could look there. And I haven't bothered looking at Jorm raveners, so do you need 3 units? Could be a mucolid. The 25 devs could be 20 to still get the wounding bonus and will net you exactly 10 fleshgaunts. I doubt the difference between 11 and 10 hive guard is game breaking.
You could also cut your buff characters and replace with easy slot fillers. I haven't personally worked out the math on their buffing efficiency, but it certainly takes the broodlord a lot of stealers given that it costs the same as nearly 14 of them.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 20, 2017 5:01:54 GMT
Well, I don't think a Broodlord is worth 1 unit of stealers so you could look there. And I haven't bothered looking at Jorm raveners, so do you need 3 units? Could be a mucolid. The 25 devs could be 20 to still get the wounding bonus and will net you exactly 10 fleshgaunts. I doubt the difference between 11 and 10 hive guard is game breaking. You could also cut your buff characters and replace with easy slot fillers. I haven't personally worked out the math on their buffing efficiency, but it certainly takes the broodlord a lot of stealers given that it costs the same as nearly 14 of them. Well okay lets run this down: List deployment on the table is: 2 Neurothrope 6 Biovores 3 Rippers In Reserve is vis Jormungandr: 2 HG units 2 Devilgant units 1 Neurothrope 1 Broodlord In Reserve naturally is: 3 Raveners 1 TRT 1 something ive forgot The 20 gaunts I'd be shaving would be protecting those 6 biovores and the 2 Neurothrope. Wouldnt it be in my advantage if he dropped the expensive assault unit to kill it and i drop the killdrop after that? I am just not sure if i need to shield them or not. However, i could use the chaff to shield the first drop. I could use gargoyles for that. And if after trials i find the biovores need shielding i could change it out. Broodlord point is taken. He's there as a melee threat comparable to the Flyrant while also buffing Genestealers. I'm not sure if he's necessary - he's just a good brawler. I guess I'd look into what point is it better to bring a BL for buffing but he's not exactly a unit of Venomthropes. TRT is not necessary so yea i could take from there. Wont be much though since i still need the elite slot. Edit: 3 ravs is where I'd put optimal. 2 could do it but uh.... its tight. |
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Post by almostmercury on Dec 20, 2017 6:28:55 GMT
I mean, if you’re going to use the Rippers as a screen that would work to a point. Won’t stop much, but you’re also 7 points away from a proper gaunt screen for each ripper unit.
Honestly, I’d drop a single hive guard and turn all 3 Rippers into gaunts. Keep the buff characters and start there.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 23, 2017 2:35:55 GMT
Few changes -
- Have taken almostmercurys suggestion to upgrade to Gants.
- Have removed the Genestealers ; doubling down on the "no rely on melee" alphastrike. Have replaced with biovores and pyrovores instead for a heavy midsize and infantry list.
- broodlord is removed for a T Prime for a cheaper synapse warlord with a reasonable cheap wargear and better save. May remove and replace Broodlord for some anti-elite attack power.
This will be the final for the next 1-2 tame check.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 11, 2018 15:41:25 GMT
New list addition up on the front page. I've realized i might crop into space issues if i throw all of my thought process things into the 2nd post only. So I'll probably use it as a summary and link to respective posts where i discuss the majority concept behind each list. The new list is a competition one for end Jan - its my first shot at a compe locally and one of the prizes outside of more plastic crack/money is an invitation to the first local GT. I'll link the rules here and go over some of my thoughts about it when i have time over the weekend. For now list is as follows: ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) [69 PL, 1124pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Hive Fleet: Kraken + Heavy Support +Mawloc [6 PL, 104pts]: Prehensile Pincer Tail + Troops +Genestealers [16 PL, 240pts]: 4x Acid Maw . 20x Genestealer: 20x Rending Claws Genestealers [16 PL, 240pts]: 4x Acid Maw . 20x Genestealer: 20x Rending Claws Hormagaunts [9 PL, 150pts]: 30x Hormagaunt Termagants [9 PL, 160pts]. 15x Termagant (Devourer): 15x Devourer . 10x Termagant (Fleshborer) + HQ +Neurothrope [4 PL, 70pts]Neurothrope [4 PL, 70pts]+ Elites +Venomthropes [5 PL, 90pts]: 3x Venomthrope ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [44 PL, 698pts] +++ Troops +Acolyte Hybrids [20 PL, 352pts]: Cult Icon . 11x Acolyte Hybrid . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife Neophyte Hybrids [5 PL, 50pts]: 9x Neophyte Hybrid . Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol Neophyte Hybrids [5 PL, 50pts]: 9x Neophyte Hybrid . Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol + HQ +Magus [5 PL, 85pts]: Familiar Magus [5 PL, 85pts]: Familiar Primus [4 PL, 76pts]: Bonesword ++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Tyranids) [10 PL, 178pts] +++ Heavy Support +Biovores [2 PL, 36pts]: Biovore Biovores [2 PL, 36pts]: Biovore Biovores [2 PL, 36pts]: Biovore + HQ +Neurothrope [4 PL, 70pts]++ Total: [123 PL, 2000pts] ++Created with BattleScribeEdit: Rulespack. docs.google.com/presentation/d/1qhVkjqMyfF0NhUGjso29aBUbV09RyDjL1s0zsQ2WnVs/mobilepresent?slide=id.g2d1ff583c6_0_8Its basically book maelstrom with some ITC influences. Nothing fancy. Primarily i am going with an objective denial build but it needs a strong punch to knock their teeth out before i start doing that. Double Genestealers + GSC drop didnt seem to work - next iteration may be heavy gunline instead. |
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Post by avasraali on Jan 12, 2018 23:31:09 GMT
Just a thought on screens - you were aiming at going heavy on biovores in an earlier post. Not sure exactly how you're deploying, but nothing stopping you creating a dirty pseudo-screen by getting your biovores out of synapse range, moving them aimlessly, and 'accidentally' missing all your shots to create a line of spore mines. Isn't going to screen from shooting, but it can annoy dudes trying to dive in at least.
You probably already thought of it, but worth noting...
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Post by No One on Jan 13, 2018 1:52:54 GMT
Mawloc [6 PL, 104pts]: Prehensile Pincer Tail You've got a really nice 'all infantry, anti-tank guns are useless' thing going there. So...why take the distraction MC? Probably better off just biting the bullet and taking a mal, to be honest. Though you at least don't have any MCs, so venoms are actually full use till they're all dead. Full Character protection's still probably more useful. Just a thought on screens - you were aiming at going heavy on biovores in an earlier post. Not sure exactly how you're deploying, but nothing stopping you creating a dirty pseudo-screen by getting your biovores out of synapse range, moving them aimlessly, and 'accidentally' missing all your shots to create a line of spore mines. Isn't going to screen from shooting, but it can annoy dudes trying to dive in at least. Except that's not really useful for screening DS. You can only place them within 6" of enemy units: so, usually, that's only going to be between your force and theirs. With such an aggressive force...this isn't going to really gain any additional screening distance. The main issue with screening here is going to be between the forward force and the backline (spores don't help), and the flanks/rear: again spores don't help. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 13, 2018 4:07:48 GMT
Ref biovores: i dont need biovores in this list, additional screening is detrimental to me. This is to create problem for psychic spells via Kronos spores. Its the cheapest with some impact way to do it.
Ref mawloc: its to upset the "God" player locally. He plays Nids and has great success with beta strike Genestealers. I expect he will choose to hide his GS in tunnels to avoid my 1st turn impact and come out to chew my face off - that's how GS vs GS fights go. Mawloc comes up the same turn as my GS come up - poof no more beta strike Genestealers. Against the other races he'll just annoy peoples faces or block out an objective card i know the enemy has.
Ref malanthrope: FW not allowed.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 13, 2018 18:07:38 GMT
First test run tonight - played vs Eldar with 18 Dark Reapers, a bunch of shining spears, 3 units of min dire avengers, 1 unit of fire dragons, 2 wave serpents.
I went 2nd, lost 1 Stealer unit and most of the 2nd at the top of turn 1. Didnt even get a turn to run them across the board.
(please do not swear) putting Genestealers on the board. He only shot with half his army, if the bikes were useful guns I'd have nothing useful left.
Having the threats not come in from Reserves is on the right track - turn 1 his web pushed out from his own deployment pretty much to mine. GSC seems workable but with only 6" move i doubt we're going places with it. I could hit the outermost layer, but i would never reach anything useful in the back. I think it may end up relegated to Purestrains and Acolytes may not have a place - at least Purestrains have a potetial 14" move in on entry, then another 14" potential move on Overrun. Its unlikely I'm holding anything in combat when it all FLIES.
90% melee armies is a mistake. And if i want to sit in his deployment and hold objectives i will need more than a mere 60 bodies. Its 100 chaff or no deal.
A complete redesign is required and I'm not up to the task right now. Maybe tomorrow. If i cant come up with anything I'm going full gunline and just sit on my home base. 60 Termagants says they're not touching me in combat.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 19, 2018 8:04:54 GMT
Right, okay. First day since last week that I can sit down and not spit at work for a few hours to write up my thoughts. I had 2 games last week, both were extremely polar list concepts and both I conceded before my Turn 1. Batreps as follows: Game 1 - Nids vs Alaitoc + Saim-Hann EldarNids were the list above. Eldar was in short summary: 2 Spiritseers, 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch on a bike (I think) 3 x (10 + 4 + 4) Dark Reapers 2 x 3 Scatlaser Jetbikers 3 x 4? Shining Spears 1 x 5 Fire Dragons 3 x 5 Dire Avengers 2 x Wave Serpents and anything else I may have forgotten. Maybe guardians, I cant remember. The pictures I took I dont see any guardians though. We got the spearhead deployment so Eldar castled up with expendable scatlaser bikes and both small Reaper units wrapping/blocking the Saim-Henn Shining Spears and the 10 man Reaper unit which were both castled into a corner of the map behind the main ruin in that area. Both wave serpents flanked on the outermost layer of the quarter circle. I deployed up all the way as far as I could go, trying to hide 2 units of 20 Genestealers and a 3 man Venomthrope behind the only LOS blocking ruin (ITC bottom floor no LOS thing) that far up in my quarter of the table. I had Hormagants and Termagants flanking up the two sides just to spread out and be annoying - instead of playing the comp mission we played EW because I was lazy and I really only needed to test the Genestealers making it into combat, I knew that if push came to shove I could keep all the objectives blocked for a long period of time as long as the stealers made it in. He finished deploying first so +1 to start, I failed the roll off and I failed to seize. Turn 1 a Farseer runs up 12" into a building, the Wave Serpents disgorged their contents and moved up as close as possible, and everything else stays still. Most likely denying the Acolyte unit in reserve but with Primus triple dice reroll I was confident of coming in close enough to wrap one of the dark reapers in combat later - I was also confident of slingshotting 1 unit of Genestealers via Kraken into the infantry and get stuck into combat and survive the next turn. If I could reach the shining spears then I would charge into them and consolidate back into the pleb infantry with Overrun + AS. Looking good so far. I expected 1 Genestealer unit to die. Psychic Phase, only 2 spells were used - Jinx and Guide. Guess who got which. Shooting phase - 1 unit of 4 Dark Reapers fired into the Venomthropes, Venomthropes exploded. Wasnt expecting the 4 men units to do so much so damn easily. Then the big unit of Dark Reapers and the other 4 men unit and the 2 Wave Serpents just fired and split fired into the Genestealers, killing a total of 33/40 Genestealers. He passed his charge and combat phases, and I spent 15 minutes surveying the board to see what could be done. Sadly, with only 1/3 of my power units still operational and his whole army still untouched, it was pretty much GG. It'd be a slow GG but even on Maelstrom there's very little I could do to the massive Dark Reaper unit that would destroy 1-3 units a turn; I couldnt guarantee scoring and the gaunts units without venomthrope cover will disintegrate easily. So I conceded turn 1 without moving a single model. Thoughts:
Genestealers on the board, terrible idea. I knew it from before but I had to taste it myself to really let it sink in. They would have worked better if there was something to draw fire from them, since the only thing shooting at me were Dark Reapers who are mediocre horde clear but fantastic elite killing, and have more shots than they should for their price point. But even if I had other gunbeasts or other threats, I'm quite sure the players will still unload most of it into Genestealers, because there is a real fear of them right now.
The fact that I lost 33/40 was not expected. I was expecting 1 unit to get wiped or almost wiped, but the 2nd unit losing potency as well is too big a blow to weather. It's not like deepstriking with Tryons (and added cost) would have helped since he basically pushed deployment out of his zone and into mine/ other quarters. Plus the failing of 9" charges, which seems to be a norm for me. This concept of Genestealers on the table wouldnt work unless I had something else that could pull the weight, because they were definitely pulling the aggro.
Alternatively, I could use a Swarmlord to make the combo work. Having both units hide in reserves would have made it easier to hide the Venomthrope, and would have left nothing but gaunts on the table for him to shoot at. If he tried to push out to stop my Acolytes, the Genestealer unit would catch everything in the front and screw them up. If they castled, the Acolyte unit would screw them up. But I already made a decision to not use the Swarmlord - GS combo for this tournament so I opted out of the Genestealer rush strategy and focus more on holding objectives.
I could have also tried to deploy everything outside the range of the Dark Reapers... but I'd need guns to do anything while backed up so far. Genestealers still make a good beta-strike or countercharge unit. Game 2 - Nids v Stygian AdMech Nids modified as follows: GSC ONE PUNCH combo with 2 x Magus 1 x Primus 1 x 20 Purestrains. You guys know where this is going. 4 x Neurothropes 2 x 6 ImpGuards 3 x 30 Gants 6 x Venomthropes Split betweem Kronos for the Imp Guards + Rippers and Leviathan for the rest. -I forgot the rest of the list and looking at my pictures, I dont see anything else. I think all I had more are Rippers in reserve. Writing it down it doesnt seem like 2k points but I remember building it up to there. AdMech played:  x Rangers/Vanguard whatever they were 3 x Engiseers 2 x units with snipers 1 x 3 Baymaxes with flamers and cant remember 2nd gun 2 x 20 Melee electro priests that get that 3++ after killing something 1 x 20 Shooty electro priests with some S3 gun that gets 3hits on a 6. 1 x 10 Infiltrators Dawn of War deployment. 2 Ruins in opposite corners for each side, middle was empty. or mostly empty. This game I was a little bit blur because I didnt know what was coming on the board. I was surprised at the number of chaff he was putting down was as comparable as my Alphastrike list - I think easily there were 9 units of chaff including the random engiseers. Then "baymax in infiltrate. Electro Priests in infiltrate. Electro Priest in Infiltrate. Shooty Priests in infiltrate". That was an "oh dear" moment. Knowing he had the ability to overwhelm a corner if I castled, I spread out the few units left I hadn't deployed (just 2 more gants and the HGs and Venoms I think at that point) so as to come out on both corners of my deployment. I (please do not swear) up Synapse because I didnt think of the Infiltrate until after I heard it, so I had a big blob of 30 in the far corner with no synapse just covering the HG. I (please do not swear) up again by placing the HG too close to the line - I think i placed it 2" away by estimation, I should have just pushed them back further since most of it was coming to me already. So there was this huge long line of gants and a venomthrope unit stretching as far as it could between the two corners, close enough to draw fire and far enough to not get charged (why didnt I place my HG that far back, I dont know...), then waited for his infiltrators. We rolled off for starting. I lost the roll off and failed seize again. FML. BOOM BOOM BOOM. 60 guys come infront of my face and stand literally INFRONT OF MY NOSE. 3" away. Baymaxes were a few inches in range of their flamer, then he used a strategem to force them into the shoot twice protocol - there goes the venomthrope. 4 died, the last 2 died to mass sniper/ranger fire from the chaff. last wound too, sadly. Then I lost 90 gants in shooting and melee. I made another booboo here and double-booked my time (the game started almost 45 minutes late and he took over 1 hour just to have his T1, and I had an appointment with someone else after the game which this ate into), so I quickly did a scenario check on my T1 to see what could I do with it. Basically the ENTIRE BOARD was covered and my Purestrains had 2 places to come in - either the middle of my deployment table edge, or a small little corner just big enough for a Flyrant. So they'd come into the middle of my deployment, charge into the shooty priests, should destroy them, then AS into one of the melee priests and kill about half. (I assume conservatively he makes that many 3++ saves, but on average I think it should be more like 2/3 dead). The HG shoot everything into the Baymax, SMA into the Baymax, leaving only 1 on 2 wounds or something. Genestealers will have 1 consolidate into it and they're stuck so they can never move out of it. Game should be recoverable from that since all he has left is basically 1 unit of Electro Priests stuck in the middle of a corner deploy and chaff which cant even stand near the Stealers, but I conceded after doing my scenario run because I had to run off (havent even had time to go back to the store to pick up my stuff - it's all sitting on a tray in a corner somewhere. Luckily its a small community so no one steals.) Thoughts:
The stealers on the board would have been way better this game. But this game is such an extreme example I wouldnt have used to to decide Genestealers on the table are good. I mean, the enemy delivered 80% of his army into your face. He killed 360 points of GAUNTS. With Genestealers I would have basically tabled him right after and there isnt a thing he could do about that.
The objective hold wont work in Maelstrom. I noticed in this game that 1, a lot of local armies now have next to 0 real anti-tank and instead rely on a large volume of shots and a decent number of anti-elite fire to kill tanks. It's not a good matchup for infantry. 2, I would need 180++ gaunts in order to survive that sort of shooting long enough to score on the random Maelstrom and I am NOT playing that many gaunts. 3, if I wanted to score I need Mobility instead of holding power. So I should revisit some of the concepts used for Maelstrom and ITC from 7th ed instead.
I also noticed that people are having trouble with large number of vehicles, due to their weapon loadout. Anti-Elite will kill 1 or 2 MC, but it wont handle 7 or 8. If it was high damage dangerous MCs, it would start forcing real priority issues. Except for that 1 guy playing 3 Superheavies. That one I'm probably screwed with an MC list.
I also noticed that my lists have very clear priority targets. I think I used too much utility to support a few power options, and ended up having problems if any of those power options were taken down. The GSC ONE PUNCH itself is 500+ points. 2 HGs are thereafter 600 points. venomthropes are 90 points and 2 Neurothropes to unlock a detachment are 140 points. Rippers to unlock battalion for CP are 99points for 3. so Assuming I wanted to support 2 hive fleet battalions with venomthropes each I would have to spend a minimum of 280+ 180 + 198 = 660 points just for utility + unlocks. That's nearly 1/3 of the list, and it's a bad habbit from the AM codex when I was listbuilding with them since their stuff was so insanely cheap that utility stuff is easy to put in to support large chunks of power units.
I'm going back to a more gunline orientated list with some Flyrants as fast moving obj grab and durable threats. There were some harpies at one point but Harpies probably work best with a map control idea rather than taken as a gunboat. 4+ BS is terrible gunboating. Right now the core sits with 2 Exocrines, 1 HG, 3 Flyrants. Playing around with removing a Flyrant for Genestealers or not. But generally looks like 5-6 high damage shooting threats and about 30 gants to wrap and stop the alphacharge. Oh, and a sporocyte to stop that stupid 3" T1 nonsense for all 3 of the infiltrating factions. there's some points leftover I think still, and I was considering Shrikes, considering a TFex with Acid Spray for hemlocks, considering more biovores (not a good idea, this tourney has like a 5 Eldar / 5 Chaos-Daemons / 3 IG / 2 Nids makeup or something in that ratio. So many Eldar, so many Dark Reapers.) I'll probably put up the list later tonight. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 19, 2018 17:42:36 GMT
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) [42 PL, 662pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Hive Fleet: Leviathan + Troops +Genestealers [16 PL, 200pts]: 4x Acid Maw, 4x Flesh Hooks . 16x Genestealer: 16x Rending Claws Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm + HQ +Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 203pts]: Adrenal Glands, 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 193pts]: Adrenal Glands, Monstrous Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) [66 PL, 1234pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Hive Fleet: Kronos + Heavy Support +Biovores [2 PL, 36pts]: Biovore Exocrine [11 PL, 216pts]Exocrine [11 PL, 216pts]+ Troops +Termagants [3 PL, 40pts]: 10x Termagant (Fleshborer) Termagants [3 PL, 40pts]: 10x Termagant (Fleshborer) Termagants [3 PL, 40pts]: 10x Termagant (Fleshborer) + HQ +Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 198pts]: 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Heightened Sensess, Wings Neurothrope [4 PL, 70pts]+ Elites +Hive Guard [13 PL, 288pts]. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon . Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon . Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon . Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon . Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon . Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon Venomthropes [5 PL, 90pts]: 3x Venomthrope ++ Fortification Network (Tyranids) [7 PL, 104pts] +++ Fortification +Sporocyst [7 PL, 104pts]: 5x Deathspitter ++ Total: [115 PL, 2000pts] ++Created with BattleScribePC is fried today, so i cant really edit it to look better because its really twdious to do it on mobile. Random ramblez- so i had a evening meeting right until 10pm since after i wrote the above post, a game cancelled on me an hour before its due, and my new rig shorted out because of power problems in the neighbourhood. Awesome start to the weekend. >_> lets hope its not so bad tomorrow. I was due to try that AdMech list or whatever else he was bringing today but that's not happening anymore. Gonna have to see if i can swing a game in tomorrow.
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Post by almostmercury on Jan 19, 2018 21:01:20 GMT
I feel that you'd be happier with a malanthrope for the exocrines, but otherwise looks solid. You have adrenal glands on a flyrant without cc weapons too.
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x Rangers/Vanguard whatever they were