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Post by No One on Dec 17, 2017 16:45:56 GMT
Swarmlord and Kraken gets two stealer units there in one turn. If they don't die T1. I'll go 2nd more often than not: so that's my big concern with that strat. Actually 10 for the last 2 (was using a brigade for the GSC instead of a sup command): but yes, that guard WL trait is just bonkers. The aquila is just icing on the cake (especially when combined with an opponent who also has the WL+aquila ). Eh. I mean, I don't have a t-cyte and don't particularly want to get one. But...I don't think that the t-cyte is worth saving 50 pts from a trygon. Now, ravs on the other hand...I am tempted to get some of those. But not sure about going Jorm for the entire list. *Shrug* (Also, I just realised that 2 double dakka flyrants is basically the same output as the devilgants+taxi, without accounting for single minded. I do prefer the MRC for some greater follow up threat, but something I'm going to have to remember).
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Post by almostmercury on Dec 17, 2017 19:50:54 GMT
Yeah, my flyrants are double devs whenever I find the points.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 19, 2017 2:17:27 GMT
I'm no longer an advocate of Dev/MRC Flyrants. Their performance is not poor, but there is a lot of slack that needs to be picked up. On the other hand, Dev/Dev just does work the moment it appears.
I'd have to build a list that would take that into consideration when going Hybrid. Of course, they're a good candidate to charge into a Flyer. I'm still thinking about whether its worth it to charge a hemlock.
I no longer play Behemoth after failing 5/6 8" rerrollables. I would have considered if Shrikes could deepstrike but i dont care enough about Ravs to do it.
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Post by No One on Dec 19, 2017 8:29:16 GMT
I'm no longer an advocate of Dev/MRC Flyrants. Their performance is not poor, but there is a lot of slack that needs to be picked up. On the other hand, Dev/Dev just does work the moment it appears. Eh. I think they're still good if you want melee flyrants for anti-tank, and want a sprinkle more anti-infantry for whatever reason. But yeah, if you actually need anti-infantry, take double devs. And I think HVC/MRC is better if you want more anti-tank. That said, the devs/MRC did well by me last game: but that was against infantry squads, where 1 dev salvo basically killed the units after morale . I definitely still like the MRC (the ability to usually half kill a tank is very nice), but...I feel I've got to play it more for the next turn charge. Which is where all of the other bad touch/threats come in. Since yes, even Behemoth 8" charges aren't reliable .
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 19, 2017 8:39:46 GMT
It was more like... Dev/MRC is okay and they didnt do poorly. They just didnt do *enough*. Whereas the double devs came down and cleared an entire board half, and didnt rely on making a charge to do it.
I'd sooner test HVC/DSSM than HVC/MRC, unless I'm doing kraken.
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Post by No One on Jan 1, 2018 9:41:16 GMT
Finally had a game against someone, with a variant of the GSC concept: basically adding in a big blob of purestrains instead of the double fexes of the last list. HQ Flyrant (MRC, Devs, TS, AG) 193 HQ Flyrant (MRC, Devs, TS, AG) 193 HQ Neurothrope 70 Elites Hive Guard (6 impaler) 288 Troops Termagants (17) 72 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 HS Biovore 36 Supreme Command (GSC) HQ Primus 76 HQ Primus 76 HQ Magus 73 Elite Purestrains (20) 300 Elite Aberrants (7 hammers) 231 Troops Neophytes (10) 50 Troops Acolytes (5) 55 Troops Acolytes (5) 55 Spearhead (IG) HQ Company Commander (Bolter, WL, Aquila) 31 HS HWT (3xMortar) 33 HS HWT (2xMortar, Lascannon) 48 HS HWT (2xHB, Lascannon) 54 2000
vs DA primaris (max double hellblasters, aggressors, Azrael, darkshroud, some apothecaries, banner guy and some scouts). Game was...interesting. He completely failed to block out my DS with the scouts: so I got the full stealer charge, brought in the flyrants since I could touch everything. Shooting target priority was a bit poor (not much happened), charged and...not much happened. Stealers killed...2 or 3 hellblasters and an aggressor I think. And lost 9 in retaliation/overwatch...Very underwhelming. Then he used a strat to fall back and shoot the full hellblaster: double tap 3 dam into the flyrant to one round . The fact that he had nothing to touch the HG was what almost won me the game (went to T6 and I stuffed up some ripper/acolyte objective grabbing stuff): aberrants/remaining flyrant killed the darkshroud and Azrael, since those were giving my firebase severe trouble, and I was able to clean up a large chunk of the rest of his army. But 20 stealers doing almost nothing was...really concerning. So I replayed, doing basically exactly the same (some slightly better priority on the HG, waited till adrenaline surge to touch everything else to reduce retaliation): and rolled them. Basically wiped both hellblasters, then rolled the rest of the army with aberrants/flyrants: only casualties were most of the stealers. So...not sure what to make of that. If I swung low on the first, or swung high on the second...(I also think there was some stuff ups with some bubbles affecting units not models, but it shouldn't have made that much difference). Anyway, since I was concerned about consistent damage and over-reliance on damage mitigation through combat...I thought I'd try my hand at a mock game vs Alaitoc (based on the list I lost to at Masters). And...nids won, despite probably wasting the purestrains (it was a very nice wrap to prevent escape, and touched a dark reaper squad...but there was nothing to take advantage of that because there was still 2 fire prisms and fire and fade...so...376 pts for 6 wounds on a WS? I mean, they did kill a warlock and a squad of dire avengers, but still...). Overall thoughts: -HG are awesome: as long as I can keep them up and in range, they destroy things pretty well. The IG side of the firebase is pretty decent as well, for the points. -Aberrants do well at hitting something I want them to hit: possible too expensive for what I want them to do? They do sometimes do well on subsequent turns if I've made enough of a mess that they can wrap combats/have other things being shot to pieces instead. But still rather squishy, often losing one or two to overwatch, so I don't know if I want to pare down the squad size. -Flyrants aren't consistently good, but they do usually pull their weight. I'm still not sure if I want devs or HVC, but I do think I want the MRC: while they don't always make the charge on the drop, one of them at least does usually survive for subsequent turns, and MRC makes them a proper threat to things on subsequent turns (while dakka is only a threat to infantry: HVC is effective chip, but usually nothing more than chip). Devs vs HVC...I still think I need more anti-infantry. While I've got a fair bit of anti-tank, and some games I would want more, that's more to do with the fact that vehicle-heavy seems more common than infantry-heavy. So if I came up against the latter...I'd want that fall back. -Purestrains...about the only thing I'm not sure on. On the one hand, I like the options large model count with offence gives me. On the other hand...almost 400 pts is a lot for a 20 man drop, and the offence is severely hampered if I try to use the large model count on anything other than a very clumped deployment (and even then it has issues, as seen with the primaris). Further testing? -Company commander continues to be silly. Though the dets get very restrictive...trying to get a brigade is a tempting alternative, though I can't comfortable get the elites at the moment. Reasonably happy with how it's gone, so...probably going to take it to a league starting next week, unless I have some miraculous inspiration (or alternative suggestions), since I'm probably not going to get any games in between .
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Post by blastarasta on Jan 1, 2018 23:56:32 GMT
I was playing a fair bit of cult early 8th and I found 14 stealers to be the magic number.. its around 200 points (I think), has enough bodies to take a couple of loses in overwatch but still stay above 10.. if you give them might from beyond they can slam pretty much anything.. Also I think you don't mean supreme command of Cult, did you mean battalion?
back to the flyrants agree on the MRC.. but saying that ive just finalised my list for the weekend and I have 1 HVC + MRC, 1 with double devs and one with devs + MRC.. they all can have a job.. the HVC has Psychic scream, so it can drop smite, scream, miasma cannon a vehicle before charging it.. sounds ok in theory.. just gives me a few options when in game.
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Post by No One on Jan 2, 2018 3:24:49 GMT
I was playing a fair bit of cult early 8th and I found 14 stealers to be the magic number.. its around 200 points (I think), has enough bodies to take a couple of loses in overwatch but still stay above 10.. if you give them might from beyond they can slam pretty much anything.. OK, couple of reasons for the 20 man: 1. The main one, I'm spending resources for what's an almost guaranteed charge with the primus+strat: I want to make the most of that, so 20 man. 2. I want them to be able to do things as a melee unit that you can only do at large model counts: namely, wrapping units (to prevent being shot) and touching units (to prevent them shooting). While still having good offensive power, and thus the option to just kill things/overrun shenanigans. 3. I'm not really sure what I could take instead: I need something that's not going to be wasted if I go 2nd (likely), which rules out anything without DS. Flyrant would have to replace the neuro, which would potentially leave the HG without synapse, so that's out. About all I can think of is another unit of gargs (or maybe filling out an aco squad...), but I've found my list often lacking damage when I go for more cc tie downs, so I don't want to sacrifice more damage for that. Might is something I should consider more (again), I've just got in the habit of using hyp all the time . But I'm not guaranteed to want it (hyp is always going to be preferred if they've got, say, a baneblade of some description), and it's not guaranteed to go off. Yeah, just a copy+paste error. Except those are differing levels of dangerous. And my opponent has more control over who dies after the drop than I do. So...if I took MRC/HVC and double devs: if they're infantry heavy, the double devs is going to get focused down after the drop and the other ignored. If they're tank heavy, the MRC/HVC is going to be focused down and the double devs ignored. Sure, they all have a job and gives options: that job and those options are predicated on not dying, which is not something I can guarantee by any means. This way, one of them should live to be a danger running through the backfield, especially with other stuff to combat touch to hopefully reduce firepower. If I could take a 3rd flyrant, that might work. But I can't, since I only have 3 HQ slots and I need the neuro to babysit the HG.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 2, 2018 6:02:59 GMT
If you're running devs, just run double devs. You'll feel a lot better about the Flyrant drop when they make a strong impact on landing. Dev/MRC doesnt have a great impact, and even less if they dont even get to charge.
I think your list lacks anti-tank more than anti-infantry. So building for anti-tank makes more sense.
Edit: first game did you spread out the purestrains too much? If only 10 guys or less smacked the Helblasters then you wont kill the unit. Genestealers are a fury when you concentrate fire, not when you spread it out everywhere (unless you're quite sure of outnumbering by far). If you tag a 10man unit of helblasters/termies with 10, nothing is going to happen.
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Post by No One on Jan 2, 2018 8:38:23 GMT
If you're running devs, just run double devs. You'll feel a lot better about the Flyrant drop when they make a strong impact on landing. Dev/MRC doesnt have a great impact, and even less if they dont even get to charge.But that strong impact is reliant on them having infantry to shoot: if there's nothing really relevant, or they're in transports...(though I should really give them a run someday: I've somehow not run a double devs flyrant in 8th...) Also, I've found MRC to usually have a pretty good impact... if it gets the charge. Changing devs to HVC to focus on anti-tank...definite maybe on that. I'm not so sure that my list lacks anti-tank more than it does anti-infantry though: it's only really the HWT (decent, but usually not going to be making massive dents) and the stealers (who're potentially...too single target, or spread out doing too much to really mulch). So...I do think that it's valid to have some more varied anti infantry. Whether HVC would be better...still not sure. At current, it's devs in large part because they're cheaper . Double devs runs into similar issues to what I'm talking about in the previous post: I really don't feel the need for 2 lots of double devs. So that leaves 1 MRC. Which is vulnerable to failing a charge, getting focused down, and doing nothing. Where as if there's a back up... To an extent, but not much. There was only...4 or 5 stealers stretching across the aggressors to tag the other squad of hellblasters. The rest attacked the hellblasters, though I'd lost a couple after overwatch/banner guy shooting, so it wasn't the full 15. But 12 would still have been looking at ~5 guys dead, plus the 1 or 2 more already dead after shooting+smite. When I think it was more like 5 total (and then he brought one back with apothecary ) with the 4++, which...some probably shouldn't have had). *Shrug* Wouldn't have been looking at the entire squad dead, but more of them was expected: I'd still consider it worth it to cut the output a bit to tag in combat, just should've waited to allow adrenaline surge with less casualties. I just dislike that since it locks me into using the strat, but when it's basically optimum conditions...
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 2, 2018 10:16:30 GMT
There isnt going to be a list where there is no infantry for you to shoot, so i dont think the "what if there is no infantry" is valid. Less maybe so, but i would find it hard pressed to find an enemy list with 0 targets that would have been better with Dev/MRC.
I forgot about azazels 4++ across board. That would account for a lot. I clear forgot.
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Post by No One on Jan 2, 2018 10:45:11 GMT
There isnt going to be a list where there is no infantry for you to shoot, so i dont think the "what if there is no infantry" is valid. Less maybe so, but i would find it hard pressed to find an enemy list with 0 targets that would have been better with Dev/MRC. *Looks at last bunch*...It happens. No infantry flat? Not often (though it does happen: last game of masters had no infantry bar hidden Characters). But no infantry worth shooting (i.e. bringing in a 200 pt unit to kill a 50 pt infantry squad/60 pt ranger squad is...not appealing. Sure, it can be worth it if it lets me bring in a good DS charge, but...still not great.)? Or everything's hiding in transports/out of range? Yes, I could wait them out...unless I have no means to break their lines before T3. I mean, 2 out of the last 3 games (including mock), all the infantry were min chaff...in transports (or reserves/out of range), and the flyrants usually killed the infantry they fired at anyway. And the other game they were 2+ with -1 to hit, so I wasn't doing much either way. Though I think a large part of my reticence about this is that I don't feel that my opponent's infantry has really been the major portion of their offensive ability in basically all of my games (dark reapers aside, but it's harder to get in range of those): it's been the harder targets. The vehicles/heavy infantry. Both of which MRC is more capable of dealing with. So I don't want to abandon that anti-vehicle. But I don't think I should completely ignore the infantry either (since that's where scoring happens ): hence why I've kept the devs. Yeah, though it's not cross board (it's model, not unit, which cuts down on how much it affects a lot: or at least was in Index, it may have been changed for Codex).
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Post by No One on Jan 17, 2018 6:03:31 GMT
First game with the 2k list: vs IG+Iron Hands ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [35 PL, 603pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Regiment: Catachan
+ Heavy Support +
Basilisks [14 PL, 216pts] . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
+ HQ +
Company Commander [2 PL, 31pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila, Warlord
Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: 4) Nightshroud, 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Force Stave
+ Elites +
Ministorum Priest [2 PL, 40pts]: Bolt pistol, Power axe
+ Fast Attack +
Rough Riders [3 PL, 65pts] . 2x Rough Rider: 2x Hunting Lance . Rough Rider Sergeant: Chainsword, Hunting Lance, Plasma pistol . Rough Rider w/ Special Weapons: Plasma gun . Rough Rider w/ Special Weapons: Plasma gun
Rough Riders [3 PL, 65pts] . 2x Rough Rider: 2x Hunting Lance . Rough Rider Sergeant: Chainsword, Hunting Lance, Plasma pistol . Rough Rider w/ Special Weapons: Plasma gun . Rough Rider w/ Special Weapons: Plasma gun
+ Troops +
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts]: 9x Guardsman . Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power sword
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 51pts] . 8x Guardsman . Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun . Sergeant: Laspistol, Power sword
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 44pts]: 9x Guardsman . Sergeant: Laspistol, Power sword
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [35 PL, 575pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
**Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands
+ Heavy Support +
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 109pts] . 2x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 117pts] . 2x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator . 4x Hellblaster . Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 324pts]: Grav-flux bombard, 2x Heavy flamer, Storm cannon array
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 324pts]: Grav-flux bombard, 2x Heavy flamer, Storm cannon array
+ HQ +
Captain [5 PL, 80pts]: Power sword, Storm bolter
Techmarine on Bike [6 PL, 104pts]: Combi-plasma, Power axe, Servo-arm, Twin boltgun
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [11 PL, 174pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Regiment: Catachan
+ HQ +
Company Commander [2 PL, 39pts]: Plasma pistol, Power sword
+ Fast Attack +
Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 45pts] . Scout Sentinel: Multi-laser
Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 45pts] . Scout Sentinel: Multi-laser
Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 45pts] . Scout Sentinel: Multi-laser
++ Total: [113 PL, 2000pts] ++ Game went well: things mostly did what they were supposed to. He castled most up in a corner, with the dreads/sents/infantry spaced along his deployment line. I went first: purestrains got a 6. Charged and killed 2 infantry squads, wrapped a sentinel, touched the leviathans. Hive guard didn't do much (needed to move T1, then started losing models to the basilisks), but were decent: biggest issue was they didn't have range on the basilisks, so were mostly shooting the leviathans. Which never got to shoot anyway, so...*shrug*. Haberrants came in T2 to try and take out the leviathans (had to double activate the stealers last turn to get rid of the sentinel: unfortunately he'd charged me with a bunch of stuff, which I couldn't quite kill to get completely free). Even with a double fight (10 or 11 lots of haberrant attacks at 3+), they couldn't kill the full health dread...4++ and 6+++ left it on 4 wounds. Stuffed up and didn't consolidate the stealers after they finished off the rest of the stuff they were fighting, otherwise I could've wrapped the dread. As it was, lost the haberrants, but he didn't have enough anti-infantry to kill them and the stealers. Brought in the neos with a primus (he'd bounced with RttS), but only a 4, so they just shot. Wanted to just tie up the castle, but oh well. Game had to end here, but I had both flyrants just dropped with him not having much to deal with them anymore, and 10 stealers literally in his castle. He did have the rough riders running through my backline, but they were on the opposite side to the HG, so mopping up the infantry should've been plenty feasible. So, the purestrains did serious work. Hitting on 2+, with the mobility to get a good wrap to dodge shooting was great. Haberrants were...OK. Didn't quite do what I wanted them to do (i.e. roll the big expensive stuff), but they still did quite a bit of damage on those. Flyrants didn't do anything due to game end, but should have been able to pretty much mop up uncontested. HG...range is an issue, with heavy and wanting to play with LoS blocking. Similarly with survivability relying so much on LoS blocking (ignored by basilisk). But still decent damage, and pretty much my best option for something I need (i.e. ranged anti-tank). IG...meh? The HWT didn't really do much: literally, I think they only killed some guardsmen that would've been killed by the stealers anyway. However, they did offer a tempting target for the rough riders: they probably could've cleaned up the purestrains if they'd started on board or came on from reserves. Essentially, we traded backlines: except mine was way less important than his, and he only went for the less important part of it (the only things I cared about there were the HG and the CC. And CC could just run away with Move! Move! Move! ). The extra CP were gold though: but in an ideal world, I think the points instead being spent on nid stuff and upgrading to a brigade would probably be the better call. I just don't really have the elites to field a viable brigade, so this works for the moment. But anyway, list seems to be working pretty well so far.
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Post by No One on Jan 17, 2018 7:07:36 GMT
Anyway, moving in a completely different direction. 1500 pt tournament coming up: I was basically guaranteed going. Then I found out the list restrictions. One det, only vanguard/outrider/spearhead (and a 'troops' equivalent). So, essentially max 2 HQs and only 4 CP...ouch. (Also no allying, but the det limits make that unviable anyway). Which stuffs up my plans for lists pretty bad (was thinking similar to the above, dropping the purestrains or haberrants and swapping to dakkaflyrants). Anyway, list: Grunt (Kraken) HQ Swarmlord 300 HQ Flyrant (2xDevs, cham, WL) 203 Elites Hive Guard (3 impaler) 144 Elites Hive Guard (3 impaler) 144 Troops Genestealers (18, 4xacid maw) 216 Troops Genestealers (17, 4xacid maw) 204 Troops Rippers (3) 33 HS Dakkafex (devs, HVC, ES, spore, bone mace) 256 Total: 1500 I have...a lot of issues with this. 1. Synapse: no backfield, HG want to spread and stay stationary while everything else advances. But no HQ slots to squeeze in a neuro. Could take an aux under the restrictions, but that's 1 CP. Or swap the flyrant to a neuro (leaning towards this) and take...other stuff? Wrap? Does mean I've got nothing to take advantage of chamelionic, which is a shame. And no reliable anti infantry to open holes for the stealers. 2. Footslogging stealers (and swarmlord) are very vulnerable to getting shot off the table T1. Probably too over-reliant on what's ultimately a fairly vulnerable element . 3. No real reliable anti-tank other than the HG. HVC are basically just chip, and Swarmlord has no real protection. 4. No protection for the HG/fexes. 5. All in all, it just feels too gimicky. (6). Very few CP for strats, which this is likely going to need i.e. opportunistic/overrun, can't really SMA etc. But nothing I can do about that. But, ultimately, I'm not really sure what else I could do. I don't really have the points to fill without taking flyrants (max 2 HQs...nope) or stealers (above issues with footslogging. Trygon tunnel has the twofold issue of swarmlord reliance and being very points heavy). I could maybe take a neuro instead of swarmy and leave the flyrant and then...some wrap with the remaining points? Or try and squeeze in some t-guard to reduce the risk of the swarmlord single point of failure? But that's a fair chunk of points there, and I think damage is going to be an issue with this list. Leaving that aside, did get a game with the list in and, in contrast to my theory crafting, it did really well (vs IG: 3 vets in Chimeras, 3 infantry squads, hellhammer). But, results also seem to back up my theory crafting. Basically, I went first, wrapped both flanks to dodge shooting, and killed stuff some infantry. Then Swarmlord double moved and killed his hellhammer. But, the hellhammer didn't have LoS to swarmy T1. And if he'd died T1 (with me going 1st or 2nd, really), I'd have had difficulty dealing with it. The HG had been doing some work, but not fast enough: it still wasn't degraded before swarmy killed it, so it would've taken out my other fex next turn, leaving him with most of his army still fine. With IB, the other flank HG had done basically nothing to the chimeras. And since the stealers could wrap stuff, but couldn't kill stuff that wasn't infantry squads, the chimeras were essentially fine (albeit harmless/an active liability) till the last turn, when I could focus them down with everything. While the stealers were actually sort of getting ground down in combat. Basically, a convincing win: but I feel that's too reliant on going first (I did have +1 though), and reliant on combat shenanigans that some people might be able to outplay. I haven't played people who know how to deal with combat armies to be able to know if I can counter the counters .
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Post by almostmercury on Jan 17, 2018 14:48:30 GMT
Why do people feel the need to (please do not swear) with how the game has been intentionally designed? CP are fundamental to the functioning of an army.
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