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Post by No One on Jun 7, 2017 15:19:44 GMT
OK, basically just spit-balling stuff here. Bit of 'could actually field', bit of theorycrafting. Basically just trying to get my hands wet, as it were, with 8th costings. Will post other lists later (late now). List 1: 2k Nids+GSCBattalion (Nids): HQ: Flyrant (2xDeathspitter, MRC, Pincer) 191 Flyrant (2xDeathspitter, MRC, Pincer) 191 Troops: Stealers (10, talons) 120 Stealers (10, talons) 120 Stealers (10, talons) 120 Fast: Gargs (10) 60 Gargs (10) 60 Gargs (10) 60 Battalion (GSC): HQ: Patty 150 Primus 76 Troops: Acolytes (14, leader has lw&bs) 161 Acolytes (14) 154 Acolytes (14) 154 Battalion (GSC): HQ: Magus 73 Primus 76 Troops: Acolytes (14) 154 Acolytes (14) 154 Neophytes (10, 2xMining Laser) 78 Total: 1998 So, general idea is to just dump 70 odd cult models in their face, use the surfeit of CP (12) to hopefully dominate early game (reroll bad CA, reroll psychic, reroll charge). With potential charges from any result, some limited rerolls and 5/6 both granting relatively reliable charges, should be able to tie something down for the rest to pile in on it. Flyrants/stealers come up for a T2 follow up along with the rest of the acos that didn't charge in, gargs either do garg stuff (albeit not as well now) or hang around on objectives as needed. Deathspitters offer a nice shooting complement to a cheap melee build, allowing shooting through wrap (see below), softening up a target, or shooting something else entirely. Basically a test of massed infantry tactics for GSC, with nids providing the numbers for reserves - and stealers, because purestrain price felt a bit much. Thoughts: Am thinking about bumping up the stealer unit size (taking 2 instead of 3) and taking a term/ripper unit for 3rd troop to get the +1 A. I'm just not certain how well they'll be able to make combat without casualties for if it'd be worth it. Also not sure on bonesword over AP-1 rending claws - lw is not worth 7 pts to me. Very leery of spending so many pts on characters for GSC (375 pts) - the buffs are good, but worth the cost? Will have to see how much the range impacts things. Also not sure how Magus will fare with unreliable buffing - Patty at least gives fearless/good combat stats. Mind control though - never got a chance to use 7th ed version. Looking forward to trying the one that affects vehicles (and also cc, though only 1 attack as I read it ). Edit: Also, on the subject of psychic...Unquestioning Loyalty seems to work on Perils, which is awesome. Considered putting in a cutter, but as before, don't like just the one (and I've technically only got the one - but given it's a saw and I'm ignoring WYSIWYG anyway, I might put together a cutter anyway. We'll see). In the theoretical...I can't see much I'd change at the moment. About the only thing I think I'd add is demo charges - at half the price of previous, no chance of blowing themselves up and a high likelihood of at least hitting something, it's looking a lot better. The short range means it doesn't do anything on most CA results. However, while it's terrible as a shooting option outside of cc CAs still due to 6" range, what it does do is offer a way of punching through bubble wrap. In conjunction with pistols (and D6 frag shots - will have to make sure I remember my grenades ), you might be able to get through a wrap that was poorly placed, or wasn't able to extend forward to properly protect (especially on a 6/high run).
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spreelock
Gaunt
https://firstblood84.wordpress.com/
Posts: 48
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Post by spreelock on Jun 8, 2017 5:27:58 GMT
I just had a game with new rules, and infantry blobs are absolutely annoying. I had Astra mechanised Steel Legion force, and I was trying to push through, but ~30 cultist stopped my advance, and actually scored a wound on a leman russ demolisher. Perhaps those acolytes could want democharges or rock drills...
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Post by No One on Jun 8, 2017 9:20:08 GMT
I just had a game with new rules, and infantry blobs are absolutely annoying. I had Astra mechanised Steel Legion force, and I was trying to push through, but ~30 cultist stopped my advance, and actually scored a wound on a leman russ demolisher. Perhaps those acolytes could want democharges or rock drills... As mentioned in the ramblings at the end, demo charges are something that I think would be good in a theoretical sense, for breaking that bubble wrap - I just don't have any models for it, and don't feel like taking acolytes apart to give them to someone. Similarly with the mining weapons (though I prefer cutter over drill because it's basically another acolyte ) - only got the one model, and I don't feel that one is going to be worth it.
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Post by No One on Jun 8, 2017 13:05:41 GMT
List 2: 1500 pts Nids+GSCNids Outrider: HQ: Broodlord 162 Troops: Stealers (14) 168 Stealers (14) 168 Fast: Gargs (10) 60 Gargs (10) 60 Gargs (10) 60 GSC Battalion: HQ: Patty 150 Primus 76 Troops: Acolytes (14) 154 Acolytes (14) 154 Acolytes (13) 143 Acolytes (13) 143 All fast infantry (nids) or CA (GSC). Very squishy though - worried about a lack of staying power. But, I think that's the issue with GSC now - it's difficult to build a list around them at lower points. They need to be able to stand on their own to an extent, outside of maybe suicide units (which might work - but I'm not sure how to work that into a list, and I worry about bubble wrap shutting that idea down). And the other half of the army also needs to, while also needing the unit count to allow cult to function, which really restricts options. I could go double flyrant (as above), just swapping the stealers for terms - could work, essentially just using the terms/gargs as mandatory units on the table. Just wanting to try something different from a list building perspective .
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 9, 2017 3:21:52 GMT
If you have HG and Biovores, give those a try. Also, Eradicator russes *should* help punch holes in bubble wrap which is why i have 2 of them in upcoming lists.
Other min troops on table to allow GSC to work - AM have options. Nids less so, but obviously rippers / termagant + Tervigon centre could work well.
Squeeze in a crone or a harpy somewhere, good to go.
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Post by No One on Jun 9, 2017 3:59:37 GMT
If you have HG and Biovores, give those a try. Also, Eradicator russes *should* help punch holes in bubble wrap which is why i have 2 of them in upcoming lists. Other min troops on table to allow GSC to work - AM have options. Nids less so, but obviously rippers / termagant + Tervigon centre could work well. Squeeze in a crone or a harpy somewhere, good to go. Unfortunately not many options . HG would be something I'd seriously consider putting in if I had, as with exo/FMC. Eradicator - I don't know if it's worth the extra pts for taking out wrap, since wrap's basically never going to benefit from cover. It's a lot better as a general infantry killer outside of that, but I don't think it's really got the hit output (average ~2 hits...) to do so - would prefer battle cannon for cheaper and much more able to help knock down vehicles with the S8. Unless maybe getting actual IG and grabbing a tank commander - but if I was wanting to go actual IG, I'd grab a wyvern. Similarly biovore - very not sold on the idea of mortal wound spam (with how 'little' they do, anyway), and I don't think it backs up cult well. Namely, I think cult are going to struggle with large amounts of wounds (either big, cheap infantry blobs ala guard/orks/nids, or high T/high wound stuff like vehicles/knights etcc), especially with my lack of non-stock acos, since cutters are likely to help a fair bit with the latter. Biovores don't really help much with either - I don't think they've got the output to really put a dent in vehicles, and they definitely don't for infantry. More for taking out elite multi-wound infantry, especially with good armour/cover/invul (e.g. Tau broadsides/crisis, termis, thunderwolves/wulfen if they're still a good thing etc). But it's also about the list design - this is (trying - I have no idea if it'll work) to be a cult cc list, with minimal nid back up. Taking more nid MCs (or just more nids) cuts into the pts to do that - might very well be worth it though, will have to see what a more 'balanced' list shakes out to be like once I've got a bit more of a handle on how they both operate. Terms are something I'm considering as 'on the ground' units (very eh about rippers with the way objectives work now - low model count with no ob sec? The no scatter DS is great for grabbing uncontested objectives, but they're now useless for contested ones. And if taken with cult, that's actively hindering the CA issue ). Had them originally in both lists, but then I realised I had points to spare and swapped them out for stealers (and swapped flyrants for BL), since purestrains are looking too expensive for me for what they do (18 vs 12 isn't too bad for CA, though it adds up quick. But add on the extra unit that needs to be taken for 50% reserves - 20 vs 12 isn't looking so great, and that's max unit size). I don't like the idea of taking them with a terv - namely, terv helps terms as the unit size gets bigger. She's almost literally useless at min 10, and probably only good once you get to 25-30. Which is a very expensive way of adding more units for CA. ~500 for 4 vs 160, and with IB/Morale changes, min terms aren't going to just spontaneously vanish outside of Synapse ike current.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 9, 2017 4:07:38 GMT
I dont think Cult will struggle against infantry blobs. I think what they will struggle against is high T high W infantry slayers hiding in infantry slayer blobs. So the eradicator is to kill off onfantry slayer blobs so the acolytes can avidly make combat to the right enemy. Bubblewrap rapidfire is one of the worst nightmare and near perfect to counter a pure melee horde army.
It basically kills everything from guards to marines pretty well considering ignore cover -2 save. Not sure on the battlecannon. But thats what test games are for.
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Post by No One on Jun 9, 2017 4:55:58 GMT
I dont think Cult will struggle against infantry blobs. I think what they will struggle against is high T high W infantry slayers hiding in infantry slayer blobs. Ish? Was mostly thinking about ability to break through bubble wrap to get to the more killy centre, yes. But some blobs (was mainly thinking green tide, but some IG blob tactics also) can put out a very large number of models and attacks. Currently really sceptical of eradicator due to the low average/consistent hit output. It's killing 1.5 guardsmen on average (+HB) - it is not a good bubble wrap breaking weapon. What it's better at doing is killing good save multi-wound models in cover - but even against, say Primaris Marines (i.e. reliably able to get cover, likely to take advantage of it, and obnoxious to shift without any AP due to 2+ 2W) - it's killing half a marine on average (0.52). Compared to battle cannon's 0.49, due to wounding on 2s. Even the HBs do ~0.5 to T4 2+ (assuming stationary anyway). But against T7 3+, it's 0.78 (Eradicator) vs 1.56 (Battle Cannon). If they were the same cost? But they aren't, and it's only really better against T3 in cover (where it doesn't really have the hit output to be relevant vs most T3 units. Very nice against Eldar though). And T5 in cover (which is...very niche. All I can think of is broadsides). And again, HB is similar output (1.5 vs T3 4+) if stationary - I'd prefer that and split fire the battle cannon (with longer range) into a some high T multi-wounder. Also, battle cannon better against T7 vehicles than vanquisher, while vanquisher only slightly better against T8 (1.24 vs 1.17).
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 9, 2017 8:53:23 GMT
I'll test both and see how it goes and let you know.
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Post by No One on Jun 12, 2017 13:22:13 GMT
OK, 1500 pts game tomorrow. Think I'll try out the flyrant version of the above list (more CP, woo! ): 1500 pts Nids+GSC Battalion (Nids): HQ: Flyrant (2xDeathspitter, MRC, Pincer) 191 Flyrant (2xDeathspitter, MRC, Pincer) 191 Troops: Terms (10) 40 Terms (10) 40 Terms (10) 40 Fast: Gargs (10) 60 Gargs (10) 60 Gargs (10) 60 GSC Battalion: HQ: Patty 150 Primus 76 Troops: Acolytes (14) 154 Acolytes (14) 154 Acolytes (13) 143 Acolytes (13) 143 Unfortunately, don't really have any 1500 pt lists I'm totally happy with .
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Post by No One on Jun 12, 2017 13:24:22 GMT
(Just splitting into 2 posts, because separate) Had another one I came up with that I'm not happy with on its own, but it works well as a base with cult I think. Namely: 1500 pts: Nids HQ Flyrant (2xDeathspitter, MRC, pincer, TS) 195 HQ Flyrant (2xDeathspitter, MRC, pincer, TS) 195 Troops Stealers (15, TS) 240 Troops Stealers (15, TS) 240 Troops Terms (20, 10 devs) 120 Troops Terms (20, 10 devs) 120 HS Trygon prime 214 HS Trygon 175 Total: 1499 Not enough fast cc elements to take advantage of the term/trygon drop. Could possibly work well with swarmlord+stealers though... Instead adding some cult for 2k: Nids (Battalion) HQ Flyrant (2xDeathspitter, MRC, pincer, TS) 195 HQ Flyrant (2xDeathspitter, MRC, pincer, TS) 195 Troops Stealers (15, TS) 240 Troops Stealers (15, TS) 240 Troops Terms (25, 15 devs) 120 Troops Terms (25, 15 devs) 120 HS Trygon prime 214 HS Trygon 175 FA Gargs (10) 60 FA Gargs (10) 60 GSC (Patrol) HQ: Primus 76 Troops: Acolytes (20) 220 Devilgants essentially punch through any screen/bubble wrap, either enabling a big T1 charge/wrap with the acos, or a more surgical 'I kill that dead' between the 3 of them. And then T2 charges with trygon/HT. Not sure how it'll go - but I like the idea. Had another list with a 20 blob of neos+Patty as well to essentially tie down everything, but not enough units for reserves .
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Post by crazydiamond on Jun 14, 2017 4:45:31 GMT
Patriarch won't buff the genestealers while they're in the Tyranid battalion, it specifically reads "...friendly Purestrain Genestealer units..."
They're not "Purestrain Genestealer" keyworded on the Tyranid side
just something to keep in mind
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Post by No One on Jun 14, 2017 9:48:54 GMT
Patriarch won't buff the genestealers while they're in the Tyranid battalion, it specifically reads "...friendly Purestrain Genestealer units..." They're not "Purestrain Genestealer" keyworded on the Tyranid side just something to keep in mind Yeah, I know. He's there for the ld bubble and psychic for the acos. Edit: I'm used to playing GSC+Nids from 7th, where they're allies of convenience and thus can never share anything. I'll forget that it's possible for them to share buffs at all (I mean, I think it is just nid psychic that they can share anyway...). Anyway, game was fun - lost fairly badly (bat rep here). Partly due to list issues, also a bit of priority issues. Had 60 conscripts to screen the acolytes out . Will be doing up a thing of my thoughts later. Edit: Thread.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 16, 2017 1:59:19 GMT
You should reconsider the termites + Trygon drop. You only have 10 devs which lead to 40 shots, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3 dead marines or less in cover (to bee fair they should take out around 8-10 guardsmen). At least double the dev output so that thou can burn holes in them. Also reading your batrep from the IG side, it sounds like you exhausted too many resources on the conscripts, and basically ended up setting up exactly how IG wants you to. If your Acos could have gotten into the tanks, you probably would have finished with a victory instead. Sorry i havent figured out a bubblewrap breaker yet. Far as I've gotten its just "Not BattleCannons" i think those conscripts are 50 men each? My Neophyte drop only outputs 32 lasgun shots, even if i hit everything and wound everything and he fails everything there is still a fair number of models left. Maybe the Devilgant drop would do the job best, since you're using Nids already?
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Post by No One on Jun 16, 2017 2:35:45 GMT
You should reconsider the termites + Trygon drop. You only have 10 devs which lead to 40 shots, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3 dead marines or less in cover (to bee fair they should take out around 8-10 guardsmen). At least double the dev output so that thou can burn holes in them. Well: A. That's why there's 2 of them. B. Fleshborers helps (a bit.) C. Agreed, have been adding a couple more in each squad. Don't think I have enough to double in both (and I think that's a bit of an overcomittment in pts - though honestly, the double trygon may be anyway . We'll see - maybe Trygon+Mawloc, and fold the terms together? Also means I've got an extra Reserve slot, hmmm...) It's a bit of a hold-over that may or may not be a good idea, based on when I ran a big blob of devilgants - it performed decent in range, but then just got melted. But...I don't know if taking 2 slightly smaller units will really help there . Definitely. I just...didn't realise I had choices - as far as I was concerned, I needed to overcommit, because otherwise I was just going to come in piecemeal and die. Namely, I was approaching from before CA rolls: I can't guarantee 6s or charges. Sending in a couple to break the wrap isn't going to help (especially if they can't due to no 5/6/9" charge) if the ones who come in next don't get 5s/6s. Then the first wave would die, the second wave would show up, stand around and die. Rather than (as sort-of almost happened...ish - acolytes on right flank were still alive, as were some gargs. He could've prioritised acos over the garg unit he killed, but still - if they'd all been left flank, some likely would've survived. If it'd been 2 and 2 - basicallly guaranteed no if they didn't get charges) - the first wave+reinforcements show up, some don't die and can charge. But, since I rolled a 6 first up? Could've just not committed the rest. First charge kills the wrap, next 3 show up with 2 rerolls. But, since I'm used to 7th, where you can't start changing your mind after rolling the first CA... They were 2 30 man blobs, but can go up to 50 (he ran out of models, not pts I believe ). But, as for something to break the bubble wrap: GSC Battalion HQ Magus 75 HQ Primus 76 Troops Acolytes (14) 165 Troops Acolytes (14) 165 Troops Acolytes (14) 165 Troops Acolytes (14) 165 IG (Spearhead) HQ Harker 50 HS HWT (3, mortars) 27 HS HWT (3, mortars) 27 HS HWT (3, mortars) 27 HS HWT (3, mortars) 27 HS HWT (3, mortars) 27 Total: 1000 pts. 15D6 shots at S4, rerolling 1s to hit (for reference, 2 squads outperform a wyvern against T3, same against T4. For 40 pts less). For 185 pts, while also giving 6 units for CA. Limited scale ability - I wouldn't do more than grab another mortar+company commander for 2 dets and 2 objective buff bubbles. But that's still another 2 CA units - if you fill out those/take Purestrains/Patty/habberants, could pretty easily get 1500. 2k would likely need some more 'filler' units, but still.
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