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Post by No One on Feb 5, 2020 7:16:32 GMT
Quick test, neos did nothing other than be bodies. Which is sort of fine, except BB do that for half the price. Might just be not being quite sure how best to use them: but I wanted body blockers for the HG, so deploying further back at 24" to maybe be safer had it's own issues. And I don't think it would've been worth it to hard commit with acos just to protect some mining lasers.
Alternative idea: drop a 20 man for a broodlord and the 2nd patty upgrade. Broodlord with barb gives me a 3rd buffed smite with the neuros, who did work every game. Also gives means I can take cat or onslaught along with scream to help the hive guard. 2nd patty gives redundant fearless. Both give more Char protected melee oomph, while also being more mobile and more concentrated than the acolytes. Better? Probably not: 20 acolytes is both more damage, as well as more objective pressure/utility (and arguably survivability as well due to multi-damage weaknesses). But quicker? Hopefully, and it doesn't seem much worse. Especially with nid strats: I doubt I'd have the CP for double fight, but fight on death or overrun could have potential.
Though that is another thing for me to bear in mind: I ran out of CP very quickly, and could definitely have used more mid/late game. Not sure if my CP expenditure was necessarily wrong, but I do think I need to consider whether double tapping the HG/stuff like PA alone (vs dropping Characters and risking the 7" rerollable) is worth. That said, I think I just got a bit unlucky in some aspects: 3rd game, 6 CP to fail 2 charges on Ahriman (PA then CP reroll, then regen and another failed charge with reroll). But still, PA+lying in wait+multiple SMA really chews through CP.
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Post by No One on Feb 13, 2020 14:11:54 GMT
So, new magus strat's pretty good. Definitely want that: the question is how? Been giving it a bit of thought, basically I like adding it to the previous version of the list (double patriarch+broodlord), swapping out one of the broodlord-chassis units. Option 1: Drop broodlord magus, take RC power on 2nd patriarch. Pros: RC power. Cons: lots. I really don't think RC power is that good: it's strong in the context of RC, and if you're souping into nids you take your psyker as RC for the power. But it's...meh. 18" range, vehicle only, and will usually only push a couple of extra wounds through. Because 3+/5++ isn't an uncommon chassis, which this does nothing against. And aco's output is heavily weighted on saws/rends: both of which this doesn't help with. If it was 24" or something, I could see some use to combo with HG: but it's not, so no use T1, which means T2 drop with the acos, and at that point...I'd probably just prefer other stuff. Option 2: Drop broodlord for magus. This is the one I like the most, and my 'default' option: whenever I've been running through scenarios, it's always been this unless I consciously think about the alternative. Pros: - Very reliable might/hyp casts from the magus. WC4+ hyp/might allow strategies around them, rather than being powerful powers that will succeed more often than not, but would put you in a bad spot if you built a plan around them succeeding and they failed (e.g. lining up to charge a cent unit with no back up plan). Also gives smite with +3 to cast, which is neat. - Patriarch's good: 2nd offers redundant or separate fearless bubble and just generally strong and mobile melee. Cons: very all in on Cult psychics, of which there's only 3 good, general ones (with 4 casts+familiars). Which means smites. While that's not bad, it's not great if the neuros get involved (outside of the magus himself). Also just general issues with being so reliant on Character protection and thus just having the staying power, or having enough threat saturation which is the bread and butter of this aco spam. But that's an issue with all of these, so... Option 3: Keep the broodlord, drop the spare patriarch. Pros: Gives more flexibility to the hive guard with more nid psychics Nid strat access Slightly cheaper Starts on board, so potential options to threaten aggressive stuff T1/immediately T2 More consistent psychic with +1 Another unit on board, another drop for reserves Cons: -1 CP (I could not, but that also feels underwhelming). Has to start on board, so limited ability to threaten with the aco drop on a flank/if I had to deploy conservatively. Overall, feels like it gives a lot of minor benefits, but nothing I actually need, rather than something I'd be able to do cool stuff with every now and then. Ultimately I don't think this is impactful enough, consistently enough, over the patriarch. Also 1 CP in a CP starved army. So, would look like this: Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge) HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137 HQ Iconward 53 HQ Magus 92 Elite Nexos 50 Elite Clamavus 55 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150 Troops Acolytes (17, banner) 129 Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) HQ Patriarch (Familiar) 137 HQ Primus 75 Troops Acolytes (15, 15 hand flamers) 120 Troops Brood Brothers (10) 40 Troops Brood Brothers (10) 40 Battalion (Kronos) HQ Neurothrope 90 HQ Neurothrope 90 Troops Termagants (14) 56 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Elites Hive guard (6) (-1 CP Adaptation) 258 Total: 1998
Now, minutae rambling time. Getting good value from the powers here feels...awkward. The magus is fine: hyp/might+smite as base, potentially both or mind control, with familiar bonus if useful for alpha. But the patriarchs? MO on one definitely. Then the counterpart to magus (i.e. if hyp+smite, patty casts might) from the other. Which usually works fine, but leaves them a bit in the lurch if magus wants to go all out, as well as not really having any use for familiar bonus cast (which wants to be used early because familiars die). Extra smite is OK, unless the neuros are in range. Mind control is an option that doesn't feel consistent enough to have as a known power over hyp/might surety, stim is eh with advance and charge strat for that guarantee. Overload is actually something I've toyed with (combo with MO to kill Characters/just chip that last wound off), but that feels eh. But anyway, when you've got too many god casts, I think that's an OK problem to have as long as there's reason to take elsewhere. Also, could possibly take crouchling on a patriarch to give more flexibility with known powers there/spread the cast buffs, but I think I want it with the magus for when they split.
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Post by No One on Feb 13, 2020 14:27:43 GMT
Completely unrelated: 1250 pt tournament coming up, planning on going if I'm free (which I very well may not be). Supreme command only and only Characters can score. But (basically: 1 LoW max) no other restrictions. So, flyrants+Swarmlord+hive guard. Question is: Behemoth+Kronos: Supreme Command: Behemoth HQ Flyrant (Scythes of tyran, devs, TS, AG. Adapt: Monstrous Size) 228 HQ Broodlord (WL) 115 HQ Swarmlord 250 Supreme Command: Kronos HQ Flyrant (MRC, devs, TS, AG. Relic: Barb) 213 HQ Neuro 90 HQ Neuro 90 Elite Hive guard (-1 CP adapt) 258 Total 1244
Or, all in the one det: loses out on Kronos (or Behemoth I guess?) stuff, but gains an extra flyrant: Supreme Command: Behemoth HQ Flyrant (Scythes of tyran, devs, TS, AG. Adapt: Monstrous Size) 228 HQ Flyrant (MRC, devs, TS, AG) 213 HQ Flyrant (MRC, devs, TS) 208 HQ Swarmlord (Adapt: Monstrous Size) 250 HQ Neuro 90 Elite Hive guard 258 Total 1247
The missing AG annoys me, because I just know I'm going to forget it...
I think I prefer list 1: it has less direct staying power, but more damage and that damage is backweighted off the flyrant's survivability. Which, at 1250 sup command only, if they can take out 3 T7 3+/4++ chassis, I think I'm in trouble even with 4. Also more Characters who're happy to just chill: which, when only Characters score...
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Post by gorsameth on Feb 15, 2020 11:32:55 GMT
Is it a completely insane idea to replace the Iconward with a Magus? I think between Primus/Patriarch/Iconward the latter is the one I would probably point to as least required but 6+++ and re-roll charges is still very good. Especially with as many Acolyte units as your running.
I'm just really against running more HQ's then strictly necessary to fill detachments for some reason.
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Post by No One on Feb 15, 2020 12:02:59 GMT
Is it a completely insane idea to replace the Iconward with a Magus? I think between Primus/Patriarch/Iconward the latter is the one I would probably point to as least required but 6+++ and re-roll charges is still very good. Especially with as many Acolyte units as your running. Yeah, losing the charge rerolls is a no go. Also gives +1 S aura option: less relevant with more reliable might, but still good for multiple charges into relevant toughnesses (e.g. marines, knights). To be honest, in the context of this list, I think the iconward's more important than the primus: when I'm usually going for 3-4 charges with 7" charge, losing the rerolls means I'll miss out on a lot of charges and really impact the performance. That's fair: I'm not sure this is actually optimal or anything, but I just struggled for time and just generally didn't have fun playing with the high model count melee under a time constraint last tournament (whether as I enjoyed finishing almost all of my games with time to spare at the tournament before that playing basically just Swarmlord, flyrant, hive guard). So cut a unit of acolytes for 2nd patriarch: worse in basically every aspect but practicality, but that's what I'm going for at the moment. If I suddenly get a bunch of practice in and it's all going smooth and quick again, I'll revisit it and see if I can figure something else out. But I think the Broodcoven+iconward is pretty much set in stone at this point.
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Post by murderfiesta on Feb 19, 2020 18:01:55 GMT
Where do you stand on cutting the Patriarch for another couple Elites? Could be Sanctus + Kelermorph, Metamorphs + another unit of Brood Brothers, maybe add a Lictor to shut down overwatch with their 1CP power?
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Post by No One on Feb 20, 2020 1:05:35 GMT
Where do you stand on cutting the Patriarch for another couple Elites? Could be Sanctus + Kelermorph, Metamorphs + another unit of Brood Brothers, maybe add a Lictor to shut down overwatch with their 1CP power? Don't think it's worth it. 2nd patriarch brings a lot to the list: additional psychic flexibility (not hugely helpful off the bat except as an additional +1, but good as things become more messy), additional/back up fearless bubble, large melee threat range, and good amulet target that's not the warlord, so I can be super aggressive with him. I don't think there's anything that brings as much: sniper sanctus is meh outside of very specific match ups, and I don't feel I need that sort of tech option. I found keler lackluster at 60 pts and stopped taking because outside of specific stuff (e.g. was a pretty nice intercessor killer), he just didn't do anything impactful. I couldn't afford the CP to lying in wait him most of the time, so he didn't go sniping Characters much, let alone actually kill them. Melee sanctus competes with PA for the acolytes. Metamorphs are probably just worse acolytes, definitely in the context of this list. And lictor is 1 CP for a maybe, when I can just hyp for an almost guarantee. I just don't think I need tech options: I need more damage and staying power. (Also I don't have any of those other than keler and technically metas, but I use scy tal+rc models as acolytes, so that'd just be confusing).
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Post by No One on Feb 20, 2020 14:45:05 GMT
So, got some test games in today and yesterday, and list performed pretty well. Definitely need more practice to keep track of all my psychic powers (so, umm, not going to the 2 and a half hour rounds for 2k thank you). But apart from that, seemed solid. Game 1: Necrons. Simple list: 3 doom scythes, 3 catacomb command barges, 3 annhilation barges (tesla), 3 doomsday arcs, 3 triarch stalkers. Hive guard did basically nothing but occupy and chip down the doom scythes while dying themselves (actually almost killed one T1 with double tap). Psychic did most of the rest there: between neuros, MO and smites, killed the 2nd. This is where I need to know what exactly I want to do better. Was playing very cagey with my psykers, because he had a sniper WLT on one of the barges. But I think I gained more from psychic than playing around it: just keep important buffer Characters who didn't need LoS, out of LoS. But play with psykers optimally. Could've probably got a mind control on one of the doom scythes to try and kill the other (admittedly they did basically nothing but killed hive guard, who were out of range to shoot anything other than the doom scythes, so...). But I *definitely* could've gotten a hyp off with my magus. Which...tesla, would've been worth: would've left my last patriarch awkwardly not having much to cast though, since he had MC and hyp I think? And couldn't be useful with MC, because he was amulet and had somewhere to be. Guaranteed might was nice, bonus smite was nice. MO was...well, crons, woops . But still stopped by 6 and did something, so...? Basically, did some stuff to flyers to kill one (possibly combined with shooting), should've also done some stuff to the rest of his army. Charged some stuff, lost 8 acos to tesla rolling slightly hot (ow) even with amulet patty making a lucky charge, killed 2/3 annihilation barges and whiffed to fail to kill the 4++ catacomb barge. Promptly lost all the acos to doomsday arcs and the remaining tesla barge. Proceeded to do not much with psychic (but I don't think there was anything in particular I could really do other than smites: MC had no good targets, hyp maybe on a doomsday ark but I was basically all just going to die anyway, and I did smite to finish off the 4++ guy). Charged with patty and a stock aco unit to kill all bar 1 of the barges. And then they died. At this point, I had one saw aco unit hiding (no good charges last turn, was thinking about RttS or advance and charge), a bunch of Characters hiding, a large VP lead, and he was squished right up in his corner. So we called it there. Game 2: Vs Tau. Basically: hive guard killed drones, died to Yhvarha because not enough terrain to hide and deployed first. Psychic murdered Yhvarha, acos with might and draw blood murdered 2 commanders and a 12" screening ghostkeel because no drone screening (inexperienced player, but I could've flamer bombed with PA to do stuff there, and then psychics with BB to screen or something). Hyp to shut down some overwatch, not Tau so the rest wasn't scary, might guaranteed, mind control for fun (killed some drones). Magus was really strong here. From there, it was basically just clean up: 2 riptides don't have enough firepower to clear even the acos on board, let alone the ones in reserve as well. Even failing charges because awkward placement and no buffs, easy game. All in all, the psychic power of the magus seems very strong. The 2nd patty with amulet where relevant is nice, but the psychic and fearless there are...lackluster with the magus (though it does of course support the magus being so strong). The small footprint combat ability and mobility is strong, but with regen strat and advance and charge, acolytes are actually pretty mobile post drop, and are more likely to make the charge to have less gap to close. Still, liking the list so far.
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