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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 4, 2019 9:54:00 GMT
No One : any thoughts to running mixed cults detachments to milk the strategems? I know sneggy has been doing that. I just haven't spent enough time trying to optimize GSC play. I built and painted the entire army and then just ran out of steam. I think you may have missed the boat on properly optimised GSC play. Chapter Approved is likely the final nail in the coffin. I've been running double bladed cog battalions and a four armed emperor battalion in the post chapter approved abberant-less wasteland. Have played a couple of games and am using a variation of my new list at a GT at the weekend. Expecting to do badly as I've traded metamorphs for aberrants and the GT isn't actually using the points changes so I'm mostly handicapping myself. Theres also a marine list in attendance with 100 no line of sight shots at bs2+ rerolling 1's and str5 or better. So pretty sure thats an auto loss Thought TFC were capped at 3 no? Is he using what to get to 100 shots?
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Post by No One on Dec 4, 2019 10:24:22 GMT
TFC, whirlwinds, eliminators (?) and maybe some FW stuff?
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Post by sneggy on Dec 4, 2019 11:37:23 GMT
TFC, whirlwinds, relic whirlwind, rapier quad launchers
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Post by mattblowers on Dec 4, 2019 12:35:24 GMT
I think you may have missed the boat on properly optimised GSC play. Chapter Approved is likely the final nail in the coffin.
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 7, 2019 22:30:34 GMT
#savage
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Post by No One on Dec 11, 2019 9:30:20 GMT
Had a play with a 1500 pts aco+BC neos list. Worked out pretty well: even starting on the board and without alphus, the neos did work. More casual game, so I wouldn't expect them to survive on board against a nastier army: but the damage was respectable and the ranged threat worked really well, especially with the acolytes to take focus (I'm pretty sure he could've shut them down pretty easily in cc, but then patriarch counter-charge). So, how could it look as a 2k army? Well, I'm not 100% sure. I've been thinking about something like this as the 'core': Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge) HQ Primus 75 HQ Iconward 53 HQ Patriarch (Familiar) 137 Elite Nexos 50 Elite Clamavus 55 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150 Troops Acolytes (15, 15 flamers, banner) 130 Battalion (BC) HQ Alphus 70 HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137 Troops Neophytes (2xMining laser, 2xgrenade launcher) 80 Troops Neophytes (2xMining laser, 2xgrenade launcher) 80 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Troops Neos (2xML) 74
The neos slightly odd load out is a WYSIWYG issue: don't have to take the launchers, but still probably worth. Added a banner so the flamer squad can be a melee squad: found I wasn't using the flamer squad much as a dedicated flamer squad. Still a very potent tool to have, but with only 4 squads, I think I need the stronger melee option as well. Possibly something to consider in other builds, but model issues and doesn't matter as much when I've got more squads. Leaves ~500 pts and 7 units needed on board, could look something like: Battalion HQ Neurothrope 90 HQ Neurothrope 90 Troops Termagants (17) 68 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Elite Hive guard (3) 129 FA Spore mines (3) 30
Not quite sure what to take it as: Leviathan? Kraken still? Kronos for 3 HG is eh.
The thing is, not totally sure that the acos have the punch to really do what I need them to, especially against, say, infantry marines. The neos have solid damage, but it's more sustain with a bit of alpha burst with SMO. The other problem I'm having is that I need the 500 pts on board to do stuff: early scoring objective pressure, sustain damage, just something. And I'm not sure the above does that (an alternative is to go warriors instead of HG, just for more durable protection for the neuros and lean on them and objective pressure over chip shooting?). BC neos on board is something I considered, but...well, I don't see a world where they don't just die, and I want more mobile T1 objective presence. Something else is wanting the magus for broodcoven: not sure if it's worth with 2 patriarchs already, but...well, could possibly start BC patty on board (doesn't matter quite as much with 10 man squads vs 20), take a BC magus for WLT, then FAE patty WL? Basically just means I've got a patriarch on board instead of hive guard (eh?), slightly more points in reserve (also eh) and can take HI WLT (which is...good, but probably not worth doing weird stuff for). Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge) HQ Primus 75 HQ Iconward 53 HQ Patriarch (Familiar) 137 Elite Nexos 50 Elite Clamavus 55 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (15, banner) 115 Troops Acolytes (15, banner) 115 Troops Acolytes (15, 15 flamers, banner) 130 Battalion (BC) HQ Alphus 70 HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137 HQ Magus 80 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Battalion HQ Neurothrope 90 HQ Neurothrope 90 Troops Termagants (12) 44 Troops Termagants (10) 40 Troops Rippers (3) 33 FA Spore mines (3) 30 Total: 2000
Riskier on board, but not actually that much more: HG is T5 4+ with 9 wounds total, patty is T5 4+/5++ with 6 wounds and familiar. Took the extra aco squad (15+15 vs 20: would mean I have no 20 man without saws purely for hostages...) with the pts saved, but could also take a mining laser squad instead, provided I sort out models. Which, along with painting, is a bit of a concern for some of these ideas. Or more gaunts and try and protect my MW Chars (MO is an interesting option here), and gives some melee threat. Probably worse, but is a thought. Anyway, that's my rambles for the day. Possible 1k tournament Jan, but likely several restrictions, so not putting too much thought into lists at the moment. As long as no tabling, aco spam is really strong, since I can have almost 100% acos and support .
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 11, 2019 18:42:47 GMT
I'd been considering a BC Neophyte thing with 4 in sky and 4 on ground, in Trukks. Trukks give reasonable scoring potential with their movement, and since BC, your Mining Lasers dont take much of a hit. Finish with 3 to 6 of our Tamiya Cars from Hive Cult.
Of course, 16 MLs are a bit much, you prob dont need that many. Just getting 4 in sky and 2 on ground will be more than enough. Or, 2 in sky and 2 on ground if you dont want more (but I'd try to maintain 5 units if I could).
HG can be on the ground, they're good esp with the new Adaptation, I just have bad luck when it comes to Smash Caps and HG (they always get me T1 unless I have a tonne of wrap. Often having to deal with 24-36" range movement before charges) so I like not having them on the board to be charged and killed before shooting. But you're looking at 3HG and not 6, and that's really ehhhhh.......
An idea me and the other GSC player tossed about here is 50 BC Neos starting on the board and marching up with the Iconward and Patriarch in tow. It's hard to remove with shooting, and you can definitely survive T1 and into T2. I just dont like it because it's just bodies and points into bodies, that dont really do too much themselves. It definitely can work though.
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Post by No One on Dec 14, 2019 7:46:21 GMT
On hive guard: yeah, not expecting great things at 3, but don't want to pull points from elsewhere for more, and at only 130 pts I don't care too much if they die/don't do much. And I can't think of anything else really being more impactful. Also only 3 makes them easier to hide. For neos...I could see it, but I don't think 50's enough: even 1500 against an unoptimised list, I lost ~25 neos T1, after killing some of the anti-infantry stuff. Maybe in a situation where you don't care if they die early, and just for a decent bit of shooting and objective presence T1? Like, possibly instead of my nid det? Dunno. Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge) HQ Primus 75 HQ Iconward 53 Elite Nexos 50 Elite Clamavus 55 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150 Troops Acolytes (16, banner) 122 Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge) HQ Magus (Familiar, Relic: crouchling) 92 HQ Patriarch (Familiar) 137 Troops Acolytes (15, 15 hand flamers) 120 Troops Acolytes (15, banner) 115 Troops Acolytes (15, banner) 115 Battalion (BC) HQ Alphus 70 HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137 HQ Iconward 53 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Total: 2000
That...worked out better than I thought it would. Still not sure if it's survivable enough/mobile enough for objectives or shooting, and unlike nids the damage is less backweighted on the Characters, so it's less impactful if they score and die without shooting effectively. But still, seems OK, though I think nids will do mobile expendable scoring (gaunts), durable midfield scoring (warriors), or on board shooting (HG) better. Otherwise...well, saw an interesting list which was basically 6 20 man neos, 3 20 acos. Excessive, but interesting. Anyway, getting on the theory crafting train for PA. Wanted to come up with something that was similarly null deploy to GSC, but leaning more on the flyrants rather than outright damage. Behemoth HQ Flyrant (MRC, devs, TS, Relic AG) 213 HQ Flyrant (MRC, devs, TS, AG) 213 HQ Flyrant (MRC, devs, TS, AG) 213 Troops Rippers 33 Troops Rippers 33 Troops Rippers 33 HS Mawloc 108 Kronos HQ Neuro (WL) 90 HQ Neuro 90 Elite Hive guard 258 Troops Terms (10) 40 Troops Terms (10) 40 Troops Rippers 33 Brigade (FAE) (Vigilus: Broodsurge) HQ Patriarch (Familiar) 137 HQ Iconward 53 Elite Nexos 50 Troops Acolytes (20, 5 saws, banner) 200 Troops Acolytes (16, banner) 122 Troops BB 40 Total 1999 Basically, everything but Kronos HG can DS. Give one flyrant the +1 cast relic and Behemoth power, possibly monstrous size on AG flyrant as well (depends how that interacts with MRC a bit, not actually sure it's worth) otherwise on HG/extra on HG. Show up, between 8" rerollable and 3d6 9" rerollable, should have something make to bring another in: essentially, all 3 is ambitious, but 2/3 is quite likely I feel. Gives me some options to either gang up, or split focus and use psychics for the remainder of the damage to try and bring down lighter targets e.g. flyers. So bring down one hard target or two lighter targets. With GSC as screen and/or hard target removal: not sure about FAE, would like to try and squeeze in clamavus, but I'll probably be PA'ing anyway, so...It was BC, then I thought about trying to go up against auspex without Generations and swapped. One squad with 5 saws might be overkill, then the other is just utility/objectives: not sure about this either. Mawloc just adds some damage and a bunch of wounds for cheap. But haven't given it too much thought. While overall, I think I like it, there's a fair few match ups which I think it just loses. Main concern is RG: cents/aggressors just pick up flyrants, smash caps on 2+/2+ is nasty even stock. And I don't have great ways to deal with assault cents/aggressors outside of the GSC, which can only deal with one if poorly screened: and if I can't kill them, they're dangerous even outside RG. Multiple knights as well might be challenging to deal with. Basically, it's a similar boat to GSC, where I need to kill stuff to have sufficient staying power to close out the game. Less scoring, but can deal with fliers. Less alpha, but (should be higher) durability and more mobility.
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Post by No One on Dec 30, 2019 16:18:31 GMT
Just had a game trying out the hive guard (list: Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge) HQ Primus 75 HQ Iconward 53 Elite Nexos 50 Elite Clamavus 55 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150 Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150 Troops Acolytes (15, banner) 115 Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) HQ Magus (Familiar, Relic: crouchling) 92 HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137 Troops Acolytes (15, 15 hand flamers) 120 Troops Brood Brothers (10) 40 Troops Brood Brothers (10) 40 Battalion (Kronos) HQ Neurothrope 90 HQ Neurothrope 90 Troops Termagants (14) 56 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Elites Hive guard (6) (-1 CP Adaptation) 258 Total: 1997
Played against a solid SM list (he basically just wanted to take the dreads he had, but it was also master artisans/stealthy IH successor and had some thought behind it, so...). Made a couple of mistakes, but jeeze HG with symbiostorm left alone are great. Kill tally: 9 scouts, 6 inceptors, most of a redemptor through ironestone and duty eternal, final wound off a smash cap and some other chip damage here and there. The range wasn't as much of an issue as I thought it might be, and the Cult really ensured that there was no pressure on them until end game (LoS drawn T6, only TFC'd T1 and maybe T5). Still want to try the BC neos and other build ideas, but happy to have this as my 'main' build for practice at the moment.
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Post by No One on Jan 5, 2020 9:23:39 GMT
Going to an 800 pt tournament in a fortnight. Planning on running with nids, because Cult don't really function in the format (4 CP Cult?) and trying out some of the BoB stuff.
List: Kronos HQ Flyrant (MRC, HVC, TS, AG. Relic: Barb. WL. Symbio, Onslaught) 217 HQ Swarmlord (Adapt: Monstrous Size. Cat, scream) 250 Elite Hive guard (6, impaler.-1 CP extra adapt, ignore -1/-2) 258 Troops Terms (10) 40 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Total: 798
Couple of things to note: not supposed to be the most cut throat tournament and some restrictions (1 flier, 1 T8, <270 pts) which means I'm not likely to come up against stuff I literally can't deal with. With the new maelstrom, I also don't need to have a super strong objective scoring game, which is...weird to me (I could go as low as 3 objective cards, though that requires taking some of the...meh nid ones).
Can't muck about with pregame stuff for this one, and not sold on Kronos for (basically) just the hive guard. But I think that's still better than Behemoth?
Anyway, thoughts? I've just got no idea what an 800 pt list would look like for other armies for if the T7 3+/4++ is enough to survive and then just bully their army to death.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 5, 2020 19:54:57 GMT
Other armies cant bring enough toys at 800 pts - maybe 1 unit of Cents, accompanying Troops, HQs. Eldar spend 250++ for any unit worth bringing, then the basic package is 180(or 150 approx, if not rangers)+ 175(2 HQs) - that's almost everything. Dont get me started on factions like AdM or Tau, who live off of Riptides (1 riptide is 280pts, so whatever it is they bring you can chew on it). The only ones who can bring a heft list are Orks and IG, but Orks need CP also to function well, only IG do not.
I think with a Flyrant and a SL you will probably be bullying most anything they have. Give it a whirl.
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Post by No One on Jan 23, 2020 14:17:10 GMT
Got a game in with ITC rules today, ended up losing 29 to 27 to IH dreads. But considering I lost my hive guard T2 after only 1 round of shooting, and made some other misplays? Pretty happy with how it can do in the format. Was fairly comfortably getting hold and hold more most turns, a fair few kill mores and a couple of bonus. Struggled a bit more on secondaries: recon and butchers were fairly simple 3/4 (with both probably going to 4/4 if I made better plays to hang on to board state a turn longer), but I did struggle with the 3rd secondary: took poison, but didn't have anything I was really happy with and only got 2 of the kills for that. Will try and write up a bat rep tomorrow or something.
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Post by No One on Feb 2, 2020 13:23:55 GMT
Well damn. Tournament ended up going pretty poorly, first losing record in 8th I think. Won vs Salamanders (aggressors, double repulsor execs and some intercessors) 19-1, then lost 9-11 to a DA impulsor/talonmaster spam, and then Magnus/Morty+TS chars and some oblits/possessed. The former was...blegh. Scuffed play on my part and time constraints resulted in a mess I'm not too pleased with: could've maybe won if I managed to confirm a hostage, but...yeah, not happy with that. Last game had an overall good gameplan, with a couple of minor misplays that I think cost me the game. Or my overall strategy was flawed, either or.
List seemed good, hive guard were very effective and the acolytes did what I wanted. They just folded too easily, and I couldn't always apply the damage where I needed it. But with CA19, they were incredibly effective scorers through the mid game, getting domination in every game. Except then freaking end game scoring invalidated my scoring lead for the entire game. Rather frustrated: feels like the list's probably there, except for mission and personal ability to play it under time/pressure constraints, which I don't really get much opportunity to improve...
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 3, 2020 4:39:05 GMT
It's OK bud.i just ran a test game last night and it took me 3 hours to get to turn 3. The tourney runs on clocks next week. I'm pretty well screwed.
Edit: I am not really sure how to deal with Morty Magnus tbh. Our suicide squad going in doesn't return a kill from memory, since we're pretty inefficient vs Invuls.
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Post by No One on Feb 3, 2020 15:42:21 GMT
It's OK bud.i just ran a test game last night and it took me 3 hours to get to turn 3. The tourney runs on clocks next week. I'm pretty well screwed. Oof. Yeah, good luck...I feel that I'm almost there (had a test game with clock, ~1:25 vs ~1:00 and 4 turns fairly comfortably, and I could've basically just skipped my last turn). But if I need to be picky or think about stuff (i.e. any problem match up), it's rough. I dunno, might've just been that game souring things, but I didn't enjoy it, and part of that was definitely trying to play with 100 models across the middle of the table with a big ruin in the way. While the 800 pt tournament was fun actually finishing games comfortably. So, for reasons of practicality, considering having less acos. Either neos instead to maintain the strong scoring pressure midfield while the acos go for kills/deep objective pressure (3/3 dominations is really strong, and I want to maintain that ability), or another 3 man hive guard. Because they don't need symbio/double tap to do work, and there was plenty of terrain to hide another unit behind (that said, I have less confidence in terrain for the big events here, and they don't get adapt so are actually vulnerable: wouldn't have been an issue, but also confirmation bias). Could look something like: Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge) HQ Primus 75 HQ Iconward 53 HQ Patriarch (Familiar) 137 Elite Nexos 50 Elite Clamavus 55 Troops Acolytes (15, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (15, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (16, 16 flamers, banner) 138 Troops Brood brothers 40 Battalion (BC) HQ Alphus 70 HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137 Troops Neophytes (2xMining laser, 2xgrenade launcher) 80 Troops Neophytes (2xMining laser, 2xgrenade launcher) 80 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Troops Neos (2xML) 74 Battalion (Kronos) HQ Neurothrope 90 HQ Neurothrope 90 Troops Termagants (18) 72 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Elites Hive guard (6) (-1 CP Adaptation) 258 Total: 1999
Or: Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge) HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137 HQ Iconward 53 Elite Nexos 50 Elite Clamavus 55 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180 Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150 Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge) HQ Patriarch (Familiar) 137 HQ Primus 75 Troops Acolytes (15, 15 hand flamers) 120 Troops Acolytes (15, banner) 150 Troops Brood Brothers (10) 40 Battalion (Kronos) HQ Neurothrope 90 HQ Neurothrope 90 Troops Termagants (10) 40 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Elites Hive guard (6) (-1 CP Adaptation) 258 Elites Hive guard (3) 129 Total: 2000 First one only requires painting (and an alphus would be nice, but 2nd iconward would work OK as well) which is a plus.
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