Post by No One on Nov 25, 2019 14:01:09 GMT
Ramble thoughts about list directions ahead:
List is designed to, basically, kill enough stuff that it can then grind it out while scoring. As a backup, it can play around objectives/hostaging to try and do something that way. The main idea worked well in most of the games I won: killed the knights, killed the invictors+basically everything else while scoring, so the calladius couldn't kill things fast enough. Similarly Tau, with a side of hostage.
But the marines? I think the gameplan should've still worked against the RG list: how much was the list not quite doing what I designed it to, and how much was my misplays, well...dunno. The IH lists on the other hand...almost all of the damage is from the fliers and repulsors. While I can kill the repulsors, that's only on the ground: if they abuse Fly and just plonk on top of a terrain feature (which happened both games: doesn't even need to be a high one), 60-70% of the army is unchargeable, and that's where most of the anti-infantry is. Which effectively leaves hostaging to score objectives for as long as I can, and/or playing around psychic and just having more scoring bodies than they can kill quick enough. I managed to pull it off in game 5, but I think he could've played better to deny me hostages, which would've meant everything died one turn quicker. On the flip side, if I couldn't hostage, 2 CP for some objectives, then dump everything the turn after and kill the ground presence essentially as a I did anyway: worse, but would've likely been able to eke out a small loss at worst. The other game, well...terrain made hostaging awkward to impossible (I didn't manage it, but in hindsight if I'd planned better/been able to better on the spot think through rules and argue them, maybe: but probably the worst player to argue rules with, so...didn't do that). Did have an opportunity to kill a repulsor, but failed all the charges and hyp, so that didn't happen.
Part of the issue was that both games I lost the neuros and the nexos: didn't really miss them until they were gone, but the lack of the psychic MWs and few extra CP really hurt in both games. There's the possibility that if I put something more on the board, they'd live, but I think that'd depend on terrain. 2nd IH game, no good terrain in my DZ, lost everything bar 1 BB squad (out of range thanks to blips) T1. And there was another turn. Now, in hindsight I could've deployed around blip defense more, there was some terrain that I thought would do something (it almost did, but fliers were too tall). But then T2, there's enough firepower to kill 2 neuros and 40 chaff bodies without having to worry about range. Of course, in the other game, I had better terrain and lost basically nothing T1, and could've maybe prevented some character losses T2 with better positioning: the flip side is I'm not sure if more bodies would've been hide-able, or if they'd have just died as well. *sigh*
Anyway, based on rambles, couple of things I'm thinking about: will depend on CA (and PA I guess), but general list directions:
1. Keep it as is. Possibly some tweaks: the demo charge only did something in 1 game (and even then, it mightn't have been needed: killed something they were in charge distance of, but it was the dregs of the squad, so...). But it's not like I've got something super great to use the pts on: could fiddle with the nid troops to get squeeze a couple more acolytes in or something, but I like the flexibility of the 15 man to not feel terrible about just suiciding it somewhere.
The aberrants mostly did what I wanted them to do i.e. essentially be more compact melee: damage+survivability+points in reserve, all in a smaller space. Whether that's something the list needs, well...I dunno. The smaller profile for survivability was nice in game 3 and 6, but they didn't do anything stand out with that smaller profile. Did work in game 2 and 5, where they were killing marines and being difficult to shift, but they were also having to daisy chain awkwardly for hostages/objectives. And fight on death did nothing: used it once, 2 died to whiff, and then I got to fight anyway. Interrupt or spending nothing would've been better. Now, could I have maybe done something with it in game 2? Possibly, that's the game I feel that I probably could've done better with the aberrants. But...dunno.
The other 2 concepts require me to sort out new models/conversions, so definitely only for if I'm fairly certain about them going forward:
2. Ditch the aberrants, take more acolytes. Essentially focusing down on the scoring potential of the massed bodies, while still retaining very strong combat/hostage options. Can give me more scoring units in reserve for stuff like lying in wait, RttS. And has more stuff on board to hopefully protect the characters. The downside is that I need to add some more saws to make up for the loss in hitting power, and I flat lose durability, since I can't put as many pts in reserve. And if the extra units on board aren't enough to do stuff, well...I don't think this would help.
Could look something like:
3. BC mining neos. Would have to sort out mining lasers somehow (I've got a couple of conversion ideas) and buy an alphus, but hopefully that'd give me a bit of ranged pressure on the fliers, and something that can operate in a separate area to the acolytes. Also similarly lots of fearless troops for objectives, so it doesn't clash with that aspect of the aco lists, but it also doesn't quite mesh with it, since charges are usually required to actually get onto the objectives, and similarly can't play the hostage game: ob sec doesn't matter if you're 9" away and nothing comes towards you .
Could look something like:
List is designed to, basically, kill enough stuff that it can then grind it out while scoring. As a backup, it can play around objectives/hostaging to try and do something that way. The main idea worked well in most of the games I won: killed the knights, killed the invictors+basically everything else while scoring, so the calladius couldn't kill things fast enough. Similarly Tau, with a side of hostage.
But the marines? I think the gameplan should've still worked against the RG list: how much was the list not quite doing what I designed it to, and how much was my misplays, well...dunno. The IH lists on the other hand...almost all of the damage is from the fliers and repulsors. While I can kill the repulsors, that's only on the ground: if they abuse Fly and just plonk on top of a terrain feature (which happened both games: doesn't even need to be a high one), 60-70% of the army is unchargeable, and that's where most of the anti-infantry is. Which effectively leaves hostaging to score objectives for as long as I can, and/or playing around psychic and just having more scoring bodies than they can kill quick enough. I managed to pull it off in game 5, but I think he could've played better to deny me hostages, which would've meant everything died one turn quicker. On the flip side, if I couldn't hostage, 2 CP for some objectives, then dump everything the turn after and kill the ground presence essentially as a I did anyway: worse, but would've likely been able to eke out a small loss at worst. The other game, well...terrain made hostaging awkward to impossible (I didn't manage it, but in hindsight if I'd planned better/been able to better on the spot think through rules and argue them, maybe: but probably the worst player to argue rules with, so...didn't do that). Did have an opportunity to kill a repulsor, but failed all the charges and hyp, so that didn't happen.
Part of the issue was that both games I lost the neuros and the nexos: didn't really miss them until they were gone, but the lack of the psychic MWs and few extra CP really hurt in both games. There's the possibility that if I put something more on the board, they'd live, but I think that'd depend on terrain. 2nd IH game, no good terrain in my DZ, lost everything bar 1 BB squad (out of range thanks to blips) T1. And there was another turn. Now, in hindsight I could've deployed around blip defense more, there was some terrain that I thought would do something (it almost did, but fliers were too tall). But then T2, there's enough firepower to kill 2 neuros and 40 chaff bodies without having to worry about range. Of course, in the other game, I had better terrain and lost basically nothing T1, and could've maybe prevented some character losses T2 with better positioning: the flip side is I'm not sure if more bodies would've been hide-able, or if they'd have just died as well. *sigh*
Anyway, based on rambles, couple of things I'm thinking about: will depend on CA (and PA I guess), but general list directions:
1. Keep it as is. Possibly some tweaks: the demo charge only did something in 1 game (and even then, it mightn't have been needed: killed something they were in charge distance of, but it was the dregs of the squad, so...). But it's not like I've got something super great to use the pts on: could fiddle with the nid troops to get squeeze a couple more acolytes in or something, but I like the flexibility of the 15 man to not feel terrible about just suiciding it somewhere.
The aberrants mostly did what I wanted them to do i.e. essentially be more compact melee: damage+survivability+points in reserve, all in a smaller space. Whether that's something the list needs, well...I dunno. The smaller profile for survivability was nice in game 3 and 6, but they didn't do anything stand out with that smaller profile. Did work in game 2 and 5, where they were killing marines and being difficult to shift, but they were also having to daisy chain awkwardly for hostages/objectives. And fight on death did nothing: used it once, 2 died to whiff, and then I got to fight anyway. Interrupt or spending nothing would've been better. Now, could I have maybe done something with it in game 2? Possibly, that's the game I feel that I probably could've done better with the aberrants. But...dunno.
The other 2 concepts require me to sort out new models/conversions, so definitely only for if I'm fairly certain about them going forward:
2. Ditch the aberrants, take more acolytes. Essentially focusing down on the scoring potential of the massed bodies, while still retaining very strong combat/hostage options. Can give me more scoring units in reserve for stuff like lying in wait, RttS. And has more stuff on board to hopefully protect the characters. The downside is that I need to add some more saws to make up for the loss in hitting power, and I flat lose durability, since I can't put as many pts in reserve. And if the extra units on board aren't enough to do stuff, well...I don't think this would help.
Could look something like:
Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge)
HQ Primus 75
HQ Iconward 53
Elite Nexos 50
Elite Clamavus 55
Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180
Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180
Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180
Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150
Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge)
HQ Magus (Familiar, Relic: crouchling) 92
HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137
Troops Acolytes (15, 15 hand flamers) 120
Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150
Troops Acolytes (16, banner) 122
Troops Brood Brothers (10) 40
Battalion (Kraken)
HQ Neurothrope 90
HQ Neurothrope 90
Troops Termagants (11) 44
Troops Termagants (10) 40
Troops Termagants (30) 120
FA Spore mines (3) 30
Total: 1998
Brood brothers can go in reserves: gives me an expendable objective unit that can also use lying in wait if needed. Could instead have the 16 as a 20 man, but I don't think I need the full 20 in this context. The spores are an odd bit of tech that I have no idea if they'll work, but seem neat: essentially, tiny profile (like rippers) but with a small footprint as well. Meaning they should be very easy to hide to protect my Characters with even the scarcest of LoS terrain. If not, that's an extra unit to eat split fire that doesn't give up KP. Having played losing them, I'll happily pay 30 pts to keep my neuros and nexos alive until my DS can take attention. Whether they can actually help with that, well...
Of course, I'm not actually sure how many gaunts I've got: definitely not that many painted...Rippers could just do a similar thing though
HQ Primus 75
HQ Iconward 53
Elite Nexos 50
Elite Clamavus 55
Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180
Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180
Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180
Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150
Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge)
HQ Magus (Familiar, Relic: crouchling) 92
HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137
Troops Acolytes (15, 15 hand flamers) 120
Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150
Troops Acolytes (16, banner) 122
Troops Brood Brothers (10) 40
Battalion (Kraken)
HQ Neurothrope 90
HQ Neurothrope 90
Troops Termagants (11) 44
Troops Termagants (10) 40
Troops Termagants (30) 120
FA Spore mines (3) 30
Total: 1998
Brood brothers can go in reserves: gives me an expendable objective unit that can also use lying in wait if needed. Could instead have the 16 as a 20 man, but I don't think I need the full 20 in this context. The spores are an odd bit of tech that I have no idea if they'll work, but seem neat: essentially, tiny profile (like rippers) but with a small footprint as well. Meaning they should be very easy to hide to protect my Characters with even the scarcest of LoS terrain. If not, that's an extra unit to eat split fire that doesn't give up KP. Having played losing them, I'll happily pay 30 pts to keep my neuros and nexos alive until my DS can take attention. Whether they can actually help with that, well...
Of course, I'm not actually sure how many gaunts I've got: definitely not that many painted...Rippers could just do a similar thing though
3. BC mining neos. Would have to sort out mining lasers somehow (I've got a couple of conversion ideas) and buy an alphus, but hopefully that'd give me a bit of ranged pressure on the fliers, and something that can operate in a separate area to the acolytes. Also similarly lots of fearless troops for objectives, so it doesn't clash with that aspect of the aco lists, but it also doesn't quite mesh with it, since charges are usually required to actually get onto the objectives, and similarly can't play the hostage game: ob sec doesn't matter if you're 9" away and nothing comes towards you .
Could look something like:
BC Neos:
Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge)
HQ Primus 75
HQ Iconward 53
HQ Patriarch (Familiar) 137
Elite Nexos 50
Elite Clamavus 55
Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180
Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180
Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150
Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150
Battalion (BC)
HQ Alphus 70
HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137
Troops Neos (2xML) 80
Troops Neos (2xML) 80
Troops Neos (2xML) 80
Troops Neos (2xML) 80
Battalion (Kraken)
HQ Neurothrope 90
HQ Neurothrope 90
Troops Termagants (10) 40
Troops Termagants (10) 40
Troops Rippers (3) 33
Troops Termagants (20) 80
Total: 1930
As previous, not sure about how best to use my points in the Kraken det: everything there (and magus) has to stay on board, which means rippers could be spore mines (if that works) or just more gaunts. Also have 70 pts left over that I'm not sure what to spend on: need all of it on board. Did have a magus, but then realised he couldn't be FAE to get the trait, and not really helpful outside of that when starting on board. Do like the double patty: can be a very strong threat on subsequent turns, especially running around with the amulet and other infantry, but very risky with WL and loss of fearless. With the two (even though they are different Creeds) a bit more leeway on that.
Battalion (Four Armed Emperor) (Vigilus: Broodsurge)
HQ Primus 75
HQ Iconward 53
HQ Patriarch (Familiar) 137
Elite Nexos 50
Elite Clamavus 55
Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180
Troops Acolytes (20, 3 saws, banner) 180
Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150
Troops Acolytes (20, banner) 150
Battalion (BC)
HQ Alphus 70
HQ Patriarch (Familiar) (WL) 137
Troops Neos (2xML) 80
Troops Neos (2xML) 80
Troops Neos (2xML) 80
Troops Neos (2xML) 80
Battalion (Kraken)
HQ Neurothrope 90
HQ Neurothrope 90
Troops Termagants (10) 40
Troops Termagants (10) 40
Troops Rippers (3) 33
Troops Termagants (20) 80
Total: 1930
As previous, not sure about how best to use my points in the Kraken det: everything there (and magus) has to stay on board, which means rippers could be spore mines (if that works) or just more gaunts. Also have 70 pts left over that I'm not sure what to spend on: need all of it on board. Did have a magus, but then realised he couldn't be FAE to get the trait, and not really helpful outside of that when starting on board. Do like the double patty: can be a very strong threat on subsequent turns, especially running around with the amulet and other infantry, but very risky with WL and loss of fearless. With the two (even though they are different Creeds) a bit more leeway on that.
Probably the best list (at least meta/mission dependant), but also require the most work/purchases I think: and it's the least acolytes . Edit: Also probably worse into stuff like Tau or infantry SM: Tau I think I'm fine with enough bodies and amulet patty as previous, but infantry SM? When a triple cent list won (and RG, so wasn't nerfed by IH FAQ)? Hmm...
(4 is just leave off competitive Cult for a bit: facing multiple armies where I was essentially playing to have my army picked up over 3 turns instead of 2 because I couldn't hurt them wasn't exactly my idea of fun).