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Post by shadowfinder on Nov 24, 2016 19:30:42 GMT
Not exactly correct - At 10 men squads, Clawed Metamorphs outperform Acolytes against the band of T3-T7, but at equivalent point squads (14-15 Acolytes vs 10 Clawed Metamorphs), Acolytes outperform Clawed Metamorphs at T3 and T7 respectively. In the band of T4-T6, Clawed Metamorphs outperform Acolytes at any unit size up to same point cost. Against TEQ, a unit of 15+ Acolytes > everything else. Against MEQ, a unit of 10 Clawed Metamorphs beats up to 15 Acolytes - bringing 20 will beat them out. Against GEQ, a unit of 10 Clawed Metamorphs beats anything up to 12 Acolytes - bringing 15 will beat them out. Against MCs, a unit of 10 Clawed Metamorphs beats out anything less than 15 Acolytes - bringing 15 or more will beat them out. Against GMCs, a unit of 20 Acolytes work best. Clawed Metamorphs are distinctively worse at killing GMCs apart from the stormsurge than Acolytes are. Against AV12-13, a unit of 10 Clawed Metamorphs are about as good as it gets. Against AV11 the coin is 50-50, and AV10 Acolytes have an easy enough job that equivalent points will get the job done the same. Against AV14+, bring Acolytes with saws. Saws are singularly the best tool we have for dealing with Knights because you can ram any unit into them and still scare them with potential damage. Otherwise you need 20 Acolytes with Icon + Hatred to score the kill on the Knight. Also note, for most situations, both units getting boltered in overwatch and losing models will usually cause Acolytes to perform better, according to No One's elusive math. No idea what's the ratio, wasnt really able to make it out. Far as I can tell, bring Clawed Metamorphs if using 5 man min squad because that represents the largest power spike and least differential when losing models in overwatch. Genestealers basically perform the same as Acolytes but are hardier against bolter fire. I have yet to do the point effectiveness per forced save per effective wound vs bolters (and unlikely to do it any time soon), but First Curse basically lets you rambo with the highest chances of success. As long as it isnt a Subteraenean Uprising squad of Acolytes, the FC is better and more likely to decimate squads it rolls across (having access to Stealth + Shrouded T1 puts them at 4+ save out in the open, which already makes them hardier than Acolytes in anything not a ruin. If you imagine the cost of that T1 tankability is worth the doubling of points, then yes Genestealers would be the absolute BEST generalist unit in the codex. TLDR: Acolytes does most of the chores as suicide squads. Clawed Metamorphs OR huge Acolyte units (either or) are your heavy duty suicide squad. Whipped Metamorphs are if you dont want suicide units. Genestealers are the best overall-charge-into-anything unit, in particular the First Curse formation. Abberants are toss up in the air on how to use them. Clawed Metamorphs are your best AV13 and below answer. Acolytes with Saws are your best AV13 and above answer. Also, 2 units of Neophytes with Seismic Cannon = Flyrant in damage on Marines *in cover I think*. It's marginally cheaper at 200 points vs 240 points, but much easier to kill. Good enough a TLDR for you? Was a good some up for me:)
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 25, 2016 16:51:21 GMT
I just want to point out, banking on a warlord trait or a roll of a 6 is not a terribly effective form of delivery. CA isn't reliable outside of Uprising, unless you have a seriously redundant number of similar units. Taking tons of Acolytes in CADs might do the trick, but CA will not often "deliver" genestealers.
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Post by russellr on Nov 25, 2016 17:53:23 GMT
I just want to point out, banking on a warlord trait or a roll of a 6 is not a terribly effective form of delivery. CA isn't reliable outside of Uprising, unless you have a seriously redundant number of similar units. Taking tons of Acolytes in CADs might do the trick, but CA will not often "deliver" genestealers. This is one reason why MSU is a viable tactic with GSC Relying on it for the first curse formation, that's a bad idea. Better off working out where to deploy in various situations.
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 25, 2016 18:33:10 GMT
But MSU is much more vulnerable to overwatch and gun fire in general. Like I've said in other threads, T3 needs bodies.
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 26, 2016 0:32:38 GMT
T3 needs units. you can still only overwatch once per unit and there are ways of getting around only hitting on 6's now. let the 5 vanilla acolytes soak the overwatch, who cares they're 45 points a unit. then the two other units (or the unit of 8, with or w/o saws, or claws, or w/e) donkey punches them.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 26, 2016 2:24:33 GMT
T3 needs units. you can still only overwatch once per unit and there are ways of getting around only hitting on 6's now. let the 5 vanilla acolytes soak the overwatch, who cares they're 45 points a unit. then the two other units (or the unit of 8, with or w/o saws, or claws, or w/e) donkey punches them. This, is pretty much correct. Additional note to point out is that CA's 3+ is already a better version of infiltrate, which is good enough to deliver them to where they need to be. Or if that doesnt cut it for you, infiltrate and walk/run up to where you need to be. When you put both the First Curse and MSU together you get this: Either focus down the big unit that's benefiting off 2+ cover save T1 behind a cover screen of MSU units and leave yourself open to the swarm of bug bites that comes shortly after, or try to wipe out the bug bites and leave yourself open to the big unit that comes shortly after. The only way you can really get around this is to be Tau and blow it all off the table in a single turn. As long as you pick your moment with the First Curse, and cover with MSU suicidee squads, you always will have a pretty decent chance with it, supportive overwatch or no.
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Post by russellr on Nov 26, 2016 9:36:49 GMT
T3 needs units. you can still only overwatch once per unit and there are ways of getting around only hitting on 6's now. let the 5 vanilla acolytes soak the overwatch, who cares they're 45 points a unit. then the two other units (or the unit of 8, with or w/o saws, or claws, or w/e) donkey punches them. Yep, exactly. And if the overwatch isn't effective, sometimes the first unit will be enough.
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 27, 2016 0:02:46 GMT
Why haven't deep striking a bunch of basic assault units that can't charge for a turn been used much again?
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Post by No One on Nov 27, 2016 10:10:34 GMT
Why haven't deep striking a bunch of basic assault units that can't charge for a turn been used much again? Probably some combination of these: Scatter, cost, lack of availability, lack of effectiveness, lack of ability to do so T1. And if you MSU in Sub Up, the odds of getting 2 6s are actually quite good (~85% for 2+ for 10 units, which is quite easy to do).
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 28, 2016 1:09:31 GMT
I agree. As I said, if you want to play Ambush, take the sub uprising. Playing it any other way is subpar.
MSU seems like a waste of benefits for Uprising but roll with it.
1 turn of shrouded is not worth the tax, and MSU doesn't get you the free model benefits.
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Post by N.I.B. on Nov 28, 2016 8:56:41 GMT
Good enough a TLDR for you? Kudos, this post should be edited into the first post in this thread. No One?
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Post by No One on Nov 28, 2016 9:54:03 GMT
Kudos, this post should be edited into the first post in this thread. No One? Well, there's a couple of things in there that are slightly wrong (e.g. against T4 2+, acolytes slightly outperform metamorphs even at slightly lower cost, needing to drop 2 models from ~equal to deal less damage), but on the whole I think it's probably a better TL;DR than I'd come up with. Will probably edit in with a couple of comments later tonight.
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Post by shadowfinder on Nov 29, 2016 5:14:54 GMT
I agree. As I said, if you want to play Ambush, take the sub uprising. Playing it any other way is subpar. MSU seems like a waste of benefits for Uprising but roll with it. 1 turn of shrouded is not worth the tax, and MSU doesn't get you the free model benefits. I feel going for a beta strike is what SU is better at doing. with the unit being 15+ strong with first curse and maybe another 15 man genestealer unit to take advantage of the 1st turn shrouding. I have seen lots of small MSU style armies lately. With a big focus on the meta's in 5 man sqauds, in my local area, for some reason.
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 29, 2016 15:33:55 GMT
Let me phrase it this way. If you want MSU, the CAD is your friend. You get very little out of Brood Cycle, Cavalcade, and Uprising when taking MSU. The benefits for being required to take certain models and you lose nothing on the CA table. The exception being uprising, but rolling more dice is better when you have more models.
Still, to each their own.
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Post by No One on Nov 29, 2016 16:15:15 GMT
Let me phrase it this way. If you want MSU, the CAD is your friend. You get very little out of Brood Cycle, Cavalcade, and Uprising when taking MSU. The benefits for being required to take certain models and you lose nothing on the CA table. The exception being uprising, but rolling more dice is better when you have more models. Still, to each their own. What's the benefit of CAD? Ob sec, literally it. I'd judge 2 dice on CA, and the ability to do it T1 as much greater than ob sec - this is especially the case if it's the entirety (or majority) of the army, rather than a token objective grabber (in which ob sec would likely be ~equal, though would still need a HQ, which doesn't mesh well with cult MSU). Uprising has no (effective) restrictions at all with regards to unit composition - metamorphs with talons are better than acolytes point for point against everything bar WS2-3, and at only 5 pts more expensive for a min squad, that's not a big deal. BC/Cavalcade, maybe.
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