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Post by jaysic on Nov 24, 2016 4:28:03 GMT
Can I get a TLDR of this thread? The first post on page 1 is probably the most important. And it's a jumbled mess I can't read Edit; The OP needs to edit the first post and say what comes out of all of that. "X is better than Y, except in situation Z" |
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Post by OhGodItsHimRun on Nov 24, 2016 5:15:27 GMT
Can I get a TLDR of this thread? Sorry to betray my ignorance, but what is "TLDR" short for? Because I've no clue. |
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Post by jaysic on Nov 24, 2016 5:53:37 GMT
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Post by russellr on Nov 24, 2016 5:54:03 GMT
Can I get a TLDR of this thread? Sorry to betray my ignorance, but what is "TLDR" short for? Because I've no clue. it's really "TL;DR" or "too long; didn't read" In other words, jaysic hasn't read it all and just wanted a summary  which the first post does nicely.
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Post by russellr on Nov 24, 2016 5:57:06 GMT
The first post on page 1 is probably the most important. And it's a jumbled mess I can't read Edit; The OP needs to edit the first post and say what comes out of all of that. "X is better than Y, except in situation Z"
This thread is about the maths, which are quite variable in a lot of situations. It's pretty hard to give conclusions that cover enough situations. Well ... except our good friends the Aberrants, who are the losers.
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Post by jaysic on Nov 24, 2016 5:57:25 GMT
Basically there's a ton of research and evidence (yay!) but not conclusion. When writing an essay, you should have the whole point summarized in either 1 short paragraph, or a single sentence, usually stated at the beginning and the end of the essay.
For example;
"Through the power of math, I have found that Abberants, point for point, are the worst unit in our codex. On the opposite side, genestealers, point for point, are the best."
math math math math math
"So, in conclusion, always take genestealers in your elite slots, unless you are taking 5 abberants with hammers specifically to take out an IK."
Edit; All I'm saying is that the OP isn't the easiest thing to read, and there are 80 replies, some of which have more math in them. All I was asking for was a TL:DR of the thread.
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Post by russellr on Nov 24, 2016 6:08:24 GMT
Basically there's a ton of research and evidence (yay!) but not conclusion. When writing an essay, you should have the whole point summarized in either 1 short paragraph, or a single sentence, usually stated at the beginning and the end of the essay. For example; "Through the power of math, I have found that Abberants, point for point, are the worst unit in our codex. On the opposite side, genestealers, point for point, are the best." math math math math math "So, in conclusion, always take genestealers in your elite slots, unless you are taking 5 abberants with hammers specifically to take out an IK." IMO, there's unfortunately too many variables to make statements about which are the best ... and it really depends on the personal playstyle, and the formations that are taken. And if it's a tourney, the rules determine if you can take multiple copies of a certain formation. All that info is needed to properly form a conclusion. And ... the GSC FAQ must be released before people properly understand the rules. IMO, once the FAQ is out and the rules are properly understood, that's when conclusions can be formed.
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Post by jaysic on Nov 24, 2016 6:34:56 GMT
To drunk quote my drunk self; Super stealers (Or Turbo, as I call them) are not only MUCH better than base genestealers, but point for point, the BEST THING IN OUR CODEX. If you figure that damage caused per point spent is best, anyway. For your specific example (140 points worth of genes) 10 Vanilla; 5.5 dead MEQ 6 Turbo; 7.1 dead MEQ That's 29% more damage output and costs 2 less points. I can give you more math examples if you want, but you would need to provide me with what you want them weighed against. There's a lot of discussion about math-hammer and how applicable it is. I agree there are tons of in-game factors that don't/can't go into math-hammer. If you're trying to decide between units and what to use to fill a role, I find it to be an important factor in assisting decisions. Now, all that being said, genestealers have problems. At 23 points / model for turbo genes, you're going to really hate the game when the MEQ unloads rapid fire bolters into you. Standard CC army tactics need to be applied to help keep them alive. Threat saturation is needed to keep them from being shot at. I bolded the portion that is my opinion about math-hammer. Now, while this was a specific reply from this thread; ( thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/49321/stealers-super ) in regards to "What's better? More Genestealers or Better Genestealers?", the concept is the same. You have two units (10 genes vs 6 fully upgraded genes), what they're up against (MEQ), what is better and by how much. I'm no stranger to Math hammer, or it's implications, all I want is a simple, concise breakdown of what the math revealed. Point for point, what unit should I take against; TEQ? MEQ? GEQ? FEQ? IK? AV14? Sidenote, for my own drunk ego stroking, that I called out upgraded genestealers being the best (most efficient) killing unit in our Nid codex, at 23 points a model (full upgraded) about 18 months before turbostealers came out as purestrains. Purestrains, at 14 points, are the equivalent to 20 points of Tyranid genestealers. (Bonus attack equivalent to the scything talons, FC from the patriarch or Iconward equivalent to Adrenal) except they have a 5++ and stealth. Oh and CA and RttS, which paired with the 5++, really helped Genestealers biggest weakness; survivability and delivery. From thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/48967/1850-genestealers-murder ; "Feb 22, 2015 at 9:54am Quote Edit like Post Options Post by jaysic on Feb 22, 2015 at 9:54am Yeah I was pretty intoxicated, but too jazzed about it not to post. **Snip** The point was that, point for point, Genestealers are the killiest thing in our codex. The problem is their survivability, as we all know. This was a test to see if I could mitigate their ability to die with their ability to make things die. I don't know about you guys, but I don't have a ton of experience with Genestealers in their current form, let alone them pumped up to 23 points / model. I used the tenants I used with shrikes to try and get them safely delivered into combat, with mixed success (game 2 I really derped my 2nd unit). Genestealers outperform Hormagaunts, regardless of the horms upgrades, in every scenario. I have a friend I have to go help move, but I'll put the math in this thread later this evening. " |
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 24, 2016 7:03:36 GMT
i used them in 5th, they were 2nd tier then but at least provided board control due to assault out of outflank. they're useless now.
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Post by jaysic on Nov 24, 2016 7:13:07 GMT
Was more making the point that Purestrain genestealers are awesome, and are really just better Turbostealers.
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 24, 2016 7:15:33 GMT
well, sure. they have the things nid stealers lack, namely a useful save and a way to get into cc. they may as well be from a different universe.
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Post by russellr on Nov 24, 2016 8:14:29 GMT
Quoting a diff thread about genestealers isn't a good way to get people talking about GSC maths
I think you'll need to un-drunk yourself and read the whole thread when you have time heh.
EDIT: that was meant to be said in a slightly amused fashion  I agree this thread doesn't have strong conclusions, I still do think we need the FAQs before they're made though. |
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Post by No One on Nov 24, 2016 10:33:42 GMT
OK, just going down with responses, so will be a tad rambly. And it's a jumbled mess I can't read Edit; The OP needs to edit the first post and say what comes out of all of that. "X is better than Y, except in situation Z" Yeah, first post was done up at almost midnight, when I was tired, so wasn't exactly very well laid out  . I've been meaning to go back and update it (and add some 'conclusions'), but exams and not a huge amount of interest (apart from a select couple of people, anyway) meant I haven't gotten around to it. Also other things, which I'll ramble about in a bit. In other words, jaysic hasn't read it all and just wanted a summary which the first post does nicely. Eh, even ignoring the stuff on later pages, it doesn't summarise anything. Most of the info in the thread's there, but that's not really a summary, so much as the thread wandered off a tad . Basically there's a ton of research and evidence (yay!) but not conclusion. When writing an essay, you should have the whole point summarized in either 1 short paragraph, or a single sentence, usually stated at the beginning and the end of the essay. The intention wasn't really to write an essay at all. It was more that I'd been doing things out of interest, and thought I should probably share. Was perfectly happy for people to draw their own conclusions - was partly to start discussion. Not at all my intention. I am not going to make such broad, sweeping generalisations purely backed up by 'maths'. Now, I'm perfectly happy to say that I think that abberants are worse than metamorphs in almost every situation, and those situations where they're better are few enough that I think it's not worth it - but that's an opinion, not fact. It's an opinion that I've formed based on the maths, but it's still an opinion (see the discussion with matt page 2-3 if you're really curious). Pg 1's pretty much the page to read. 2-3 is just back and forth about aberrants and a bit of a tangent, 4-5 I think is some stuff on neophytes (and a brief bit on anti-vehicle as well). OK, quick and easy conclusion - depends. As in, literally, I believe metamorphs with claws will win out against basically all of those (can check in a bit - I think draw against MEQ, small loss against TEQ. Don't even know what FEQ is). The thing is, they become worse when shot. How much they're getting shot, whether the increase in damage is worth the loss in survivability...those are player choices - there's not really a 'right' or 'wrong' answer. I'm just trying to give info for people to make an informed decision. As to why I don't have most of those up there (though I'm surprised TEQ isn't...)? Because I thought I'd keep it simple (it's fairly tedious to transfer over), and then if people were interested they could ask. Which didn't really happen, with the exception of vehicles (which I put up later). (Also, since you mention purestrains - they're just worse acolytes usually, with their only upside being survivability. But with the exception of ignores cover, that usually takes a while before they become better (against anything except possibly vehicles with patty - FC's likely to make a larger difference there)). |
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Post by No One on Nov 24, 2016 11:03:46 GMT
jaysic : The general trend is that as saves decreases (i.e. become better), acolytes become better. As toughness increases, or when adding invul saves, metamorphs become better. Acolytes become better than metamorphs when shot by a certain amount (depending on how good they were in the first place), aberrants become proportionally better when shot by anything <S8 (though usually require a fair bit of shooting to become better than either against infantry), and similar with stealers (though becomes better a lot quicker when hit by ignores cover). Acol Aber Met GEQ: 24.89 6.67 22.22 MEQ: 10.37 5.00 10.37 TEQ: 6.22 3.33 5.93 So, acolytes with banner are basically better against these targets (just in the case of TEQ due to the lack of shield, and only because of better survivability than metamorphs against MEQ). Metamorphs are anti-vehicle (which they perform really well), and anti-MC/high toughness (though not against WK), and will perform similar against everything else as well. Essentially, glass cannon anti-hard target.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 24, 2016 18:02:32 GMT
Not exactly correct - At 10 men squads, Clawed Metamorphs outperform Acolytes against the band of T3-T7, but at equivalent point squads (14-15 Acolytes vs 10 Clawed Metamorphs), Acolytes outperform Clawed Metamorphs at T3 and T7 respectively.
In the band of T4-T6, Clawed Metamorphs outperform Acolytes at any unit size up to same point cost.
Against TEQ, a unit of 15+ Acolytes > everything else.
Against MEQ, a unit of 10 Clawed Metamorphs beats up to 15 Acolytes - bringing 20 will beat them out.
Against GEQ, a unit of 10 Clawed Metamorphs beats anything up to 12 Acolytes - bringing 15 will beat them out.
Against MCs, a unit of 10 Clawed Metamorphs beats out anything less than 15 Acolytes - bringing 15 or more will beat them out.
Against GMCs, a unit of 20 Acolytes work best. Clawed Metamorphs are distinctively worse at killing GMCs apart from the stormsurge than Acolytes are.
Against AV12-13, a unit of 10 Clawed Metamorphs are about as good as it gets. Against AV11 the coin is 50-50, and AV10 Acolytes have an easy enough job that equivalent points will get the job done the same.
Against AV14+, bring Acolytes with saws. Saws are singularly the best tool we have for dealing with Knights because you can ram any unit into them and still scare them with potential damage. Otherwise you need 20 Acolytes with Icon + Hatred to score the kill on the Knight.
Also note, for most situations, both units getting boltered in overwatch and losing models will usually cause Acolytes to perform better, according to No One's elusive math. No idea what's the ratio, wasnt really able to make it out. Far as I can tell, bring Clawed Metamorphs if using 5 man min squad because that represents the largest power spike and least differential when losing models in overwatch.
Genestealers basically perform the same as Acolytes but are hardier against bolter fire. I have yet to do the point effectiveness per forced save per effective wound vs bolters (and unlikely to do it any time soon), but First Curse basically lets you rambo with the highest chances of success. As long as it isnt a Subteraenean Uprising squad of Acolytes, the FC is better and more likely to decimate squads it rolls across (having access to Stealth + Shrouded T1 puts them at 4+ save out in the open, which already makes them hardier than Acolytes in anything not a ruin. If you imagine the cost of that T1 tankability is worth the doubling of points, then yes Genestealers would be the absolute BEST generalist unit in the codex.
TLDR: Acolytes does most of the chores as suicide squads. Clawed Metamorphs OR huge Acolyte units (either or) are your heavy duty suicide squad. Whipped Metamorphs are if you dont want suicide units. Genestealers are the best overall-charge-into-anything unit, in particular the First Curse formation. Abberants are toss up in the air on how to use them. Clawed Metamorphs are your best AV13 and below answer. Acolytes with Saws are your best AV13 and above answer.
Also, 2 units of Neophytes with Seismic Cannon = Flyrant in damage on Marines *in cover I think*. It's marginally cheaper at 200 points vs 240 points, but much easier to kill.
Good enough a TLDR for you?
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which the first post does nicely.
. I've been meaning to go back and update it (and add some 'conclusions'), but exams and not a huge amount of interest (apart from a select couple of people, anyway) meant I haven't gotten around to it. 